Then again, I don't do a hand held fight scene with a G4, and most people don't edit with XD discs.

IF your camera is in rough conditions, then solid state makes a difference - that is IF you have enough capacity to store your stuff before moving the video to a hard drive.

But that's the deal isn't it? One person's workflow works well with P2 cards, while the next person's doesn't. If P2 isn't right for your workflow, then don't use it! If P2 is right for somebody else's workflow, don't knock it...

Let's call it a day...
 

So the original question - will 16gb cards be avaialble this year - has been answered many times over and in the process this thread has taken on a life of it's own.

We've all debated methods, tech and pondered the future, let's put this thread to rest and consider the question answered - and then some. End of thread.

Chris?

That's fine, but the point you're missing is that P2 is old news and will soon be upstaged by non-P2 flash memory solutions - even within the Panasonic brand line. As is often the case, expensive technologies tend to lose out to more affordable solutions unless there's a compelling reason for the expensive option to become mainstream, which P2 doesn't have. P2 pointed the way to a flash-based future but won't be the method of implementing that for most of us.

I never made a comment on which camera or system is better. My comments have been directed toward the P2 system, or more specifically the cards themselves. Your statements are about a specific camera/system.

Robert, you obviously take this personally, or at least it does "make a difference to you one way or the other." That's why this will be my last post on this topic.

I do admire Panasonic's attempt to introduce a new system! Again and again I have said that I don't dislike the system or the cameras! What I have said is that the lack of real progress in increasing card size and reducing card cost is going to keep it from being adopted as a standard except within Panisonic's own systems. Something or someone will jump in with another system or another storage media. That's my opinion...

Whatever system or systems or media does finally take root and stick, has one other big obstical to overcome and it this is a real toughie! Are you ready for this: The price must eventually come down low enough for us to be able to record on the media and stick on the shelf and keep it!!!!!!! That price can be a lot more than what a MiniDV tape costs now, but no where near what a P2 card costs. Having that footage on your hard drive and loosing it will hurt bigtime. Remember those drives with all of the moving parts and things to go wrong, whirling discs and shock vulnerable and all the other things we have said about them in the thread!?!? Yup, they do fail. I had a drive fail last week and lost some of my footage from DVC#7. That was the one I won! I normally keep my tapes, but since I only used a couple of minutes on the tape, I reused it. My error, my fault, but it points out a problem that any new solid state media will have. That is the loss of the original footage everytime you must reuse the card. We will accept that risk for now, but eventually we will want something to keep. Even at say a hundred bucks a card, you could afford to put them away and keep it if you have something special. But not at $1,200 a card, and only a few minutes. Panasonic should be selling the cards as low as possible, which may indeed be the case. You don't want to use the printer system, where they will basically give you the printer if you just buy their ink cartriges.

My last statement is what I was trying to say, maybe poorly, in the beginning. The problem with the P2 system right now is one of card size and card price. One is way too small and the other is way to large. When that is reversed, then we will have a system to move forward with.

I"m done, and sorry if this got too far out.

Mike

I think, IMHO, that P2 is a great idea , no capture time - can fail tho. Tape has all the capture time issues associated with it - can fail tho. The DTD devices, like P2 get around the capture issuses - can fail tho....

I would love to use P2, but didn't have the budget to stretch for a laptop to offload P2's in the field. Of all the formats, I think this one is the best. IMO. In a way I'm glad I didn't go with P2 a year ago, as I'd be equally frustrated about the P2 size/price ratio as many in this thread are. As for DTD's they are simply over-priced hard drives.

We'll all laugh someday when a 250gb P2 card will be bought for $150. A few years ago who'd a thought we'd be buying 750gb hard drives for around $150 today!!

It seems that there are no correct/perfect solutions. Go with what suits you now that you should go with.

Andrew

Wow, so many points of view here. I really hope P2 lasts for the future. I could really see this formats future going both ways.

The way I see it, an hdv camcorder is basically a minidv camcorder that shoots hd, with maybe a couple added issues depending on equipment/workflow. Comparing the hvx to any other camcorder in this price range in terms of format is a non issue imoa.

Will p2 last? Definitely for right now. I think there are enough people who want to shoot dvcpro hd right now and in the near future to at least sustain this format for a while. I doubt most users will be transfering a p2 card from a hvx and putting it into a larger pro cam, so it isn't the cross compatibility that will prolong this format.

Will we see other solid state media come to the video scene? Yes, but in what time. For now, we need larger capacity and cheaper storage. Panasonic isn't really achieving this at this moment. I think Grass Valley's infinity is a fascinating item. Could we see a smaller prosumer cam use the same removable drives and be capable of shootin to various formats? That would be really cool in my mind. Will AVCHD eventually take over at some kind of a pro level? It certainly looks this way. What about a camera that can write to multiple compact flash or sd mem cards simultaniously?

My point: Who knows what the future holds? Right now, it looks like most companies are overcomming storage capacities with more compression for right now. Panasonic is in the minority, and pushing a format that is ahead of its time. I wouldn't be surprized if dvcpro hd is displaced by a newer codec in the near future. The good news is you'll still be able to use your P2 cards with the new format, at least lets hope so.

Me, I would like to see a company come out with a non-proprietary solid state memory format. For right now I'll wait for the future and will be shooting minidv and hdv for a few more years.

P2 has a significant capture (transfer) time unless you plan to edit directly from the cards, which most people aren't doing because the cards are too expensive to use that way. That's another reason standard flash memory will push P2 aside, because it will more quickly get to throw-away cheap so you can just leave your data on the cards.

As far as fail-safe recording is concerned, the best way to ensure that is to record simultaneously to both a primary and backup solution. Can P2-based cameras do that? How much would it cost per minute to record HD content to two P2 cards in parallel?

Maybe so, but generic flash memory will be much cheaper per GB at any given point in time. I just checked Amazon.com and found a SanDisk Extreme III CompactFlash card with 12 GB capacity (!) and 20 MB/sec throughput selling for just under $400, while more modest 8 GB CompactFlash cards were under $100. The best price I could find for an 8GB P2 card is $1125. That leaves little left to discuss here; P2's days are numbered for anything but the most demanding applications.

I know we're flogging a dead horse with this whole discussion, but I'm in complete agreement with Kevin. Standard FLASH formats are going to push P2 aside rather quickly... Many manufacturers (Panasonic included!) are already releasing HD camcorders that use off-the-shelf FLASH memory. I just bought a bunch of 150X 8GB Transcend CF cards for $89 each. They claim a 20MB/s write speed and 26MB/s read. I've found they're not quite that fast in reality, more like 16MB/s write sustained and about 22MB/s read sustained. Anyway, I use those with my DSLRs and often hand over the CF card to the client as part of the deal when the shoot or project is completed.

Already demonstrated at CES, we will see CF cards in the 32GB and 64GB capacities this year and write speeds rated in excess of 30MB/s. ExpressCard storage which is standardized, no drivers, in capacities up to 128GB and transfer speeds as high as 100MB/s and all the benefits of P2 and then some. There will also be SATA interface FLASH drives with capacities as high as 256GB by year's and even faster transfer rates in both 1.8" and 2.5" drive sizes.

If Panasonic wants P2 to survive beyond a niche produce in their broadcast and pro camera lines, then they need to adopt an entirely different business model surrounding P2. They can't continue to undercut P2 with their consumer product lines that use off the shelf storage tech... Consumer and Prosumer camera lines will continue to blur. And they can't continue to overcharge for P2 media when the only special or unique thing about it is the fact that it's what their prosumer/pro cameras use. P2 offers no advantages, none, nada, zilch over upcoming ExpressCard and even PCMCIA based FLASH products to be shipping this year at what will undoubtedly be a fraction of the cost.

I agree with Mike.
 

I used a Pani H200 a couple a days before the new year in New York. It is annoying to have to use those cards. They run out fast. And as far as the Hard Drive hack its too much trouble. Tapes are easier. Thats why Sony's HD cam will do better even if there is no Advanced pulldown. Heck really that Advanced crap is a bit unneccisary. Many filmmakers have stated that the Advanced feature (introduced on the 100A) was causing them some problems. Thats because Pani hyped it up and everyone opened there check book and sold their original 100's on Ebay. There were some changes but none sufficient enough to sell your 100. And another thing videography companies revolve around the hype too. Some wont hire you now if you don't have a 100B. Ridiculous. Pani always comes up with a way to milk you for cash. Thats why I prefer Sony. Heck I still use a VX1000 along with the 100A (Only Pani brought/didn't buy 100 but would have if known the truth) The cards are a ripoff and us the Con/Prosumer are being hoodwinked. Wait for the cards to either go down drastically in price or for the next HD Pani Cam to have the option to shoot HD on tape or FLASH.

Man.......... this is a 'tough' crowd! ;-)

As a very interested "bystander" I can say I've waited (and will continue to wait) on an HVX purchase primarily due to the capture issues. i.e. price and capacity.

IMHO, the pace of price/capacity improvement has not been very impressive so far and not enough to make me jump yet. :-(. If Pani could get 64 GB cards out this year for ~~ $1K then they would have me for a customer. I certainly won't be holding my breath for that one though. :-(

Regards
JohnG

If you only shoot and are use to handing a client a tape then the HVX may not be for you. If you shoot and edit and want to quit wasting time digitizing tapes after the fact then the HVX is worth a look. If you know a shot is no good you can delete it on the spot. We did a shoot for a client who owns a Sony Z1U. They did some test shooting with the Z1U for use in a high-end property marketing video. They tried 60i, then they tried de-interlacing the 60i and were not happy with the way it looked on the 50" Plasma screen.
We shot for them with the HVX200, 1080 24p....delivered them a hard drive full of P2 cards....they are editing now and are very pleased with the results.
The client mentioned the fact - during the shoot in his words "I don't mind waiting a few minutes to transfer footage if it saves me the hours and drudgery of digitizing footage".

On the flip side, my son likes to watch the digitization process, so he can mentally categorize all of the available footage. It's like a pre-editing or spotting session for him. I've offered to digitize tapes while he's doing another task, and he's refused. Then again, he didn't complain about no digitization when we rented an HVX...

The bottom line is your workflow. Long form, unstructured documentaries are not ideal for P2 cards. Short, well planned, controlled clips are. And if you can work it so you can see a quick edit before tearing down a set, they can save yer butt. :)

16 GB cards is around the corner
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.ph...820#post624820