will we see 16gig and 32gig cards this year
Do you think Pani will announce at NAB that 16gig and 32gig cards will be available this year
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I was at an acting class/lecture a couple of weeks ago. A local filmmaker and commercial videographer was there. He had his Pani there and set up to record the class. I brought in my XLH1 and set up too. It was a kind of last minute thing and had not been planed out in advance. Did not have anyone miked or anything. My Pani friend was switching P2 cards and trying to keep up, then he just finally GAVE up. I ended up shooting over 5 hours of HDV. At the next class a week later, we set up my XLH1 only. He and another filmmaker and instructor used my wireless gear and a mixer and kept everyone miked and shot 6 more hours of HDV. It just made more sense to do that. For the next class, I planned to use my FireStore to record it to disk also, to save capturing time. That class was cancelled, so never got the chance. I think it would be a good thing to look into a FireStore system for yourself. Don't know if they can record exactly the same, 4:2:2 or whatever, as I have never looked into it, but it sure looks like it could simplify your lives. I'm just trying to show how difficult it is to use the P2 card system. And, unless someone else picks up the system, it will eventually go away maybe. Some other system will take its place. I do hope you get bigger cards, and I hope that the prices come way down. Good luck---Mike |
Paul,
If you read earlier threads on this forum you'll see that in fact 16gb cards are just around the corner; the exact date hasn't been reset (they were originally scheduled to be released with the now-shipping HPX2000) however by summer they will be out. No word has been given on the 32gb cards yet. As to Mike's assertion that P2 is difficult and won't last, nothing could be further from the truth. Panasonic's investment in the system isn't a light-hearted test market, they have in point of fact dedicated to moving away from tape-based cameras as shown by the recent and aggressive announcement of 2 new P2 HD bodies. With only 8gb cards available currently, long form recording has always been a challenge only for the HVX (the ENG bodies have 5 P2 slots) and nobody has disputed that fact, and as such there are alternatives to working with only 2 cards in the camera, many of which are reviewed here on the forum. When the 16 gb cards come out that will change drastically for the HVX. Let's be clear on what P2 really is: It is intelligent storage, not a codec or format, in fact P2 is format agnostic meaning, it can take whatever format the camera shoots which is anything from DV to DVCPRO-HD - and soon AVC-Intra (on the ENG cameras). HDV on the other hand IS a format/codec and whatever form the camera shoots, you're stuck with. P2 is here to stay and will become more robust even in the very near future. I will be giving a presentation on P2 workflows - and a brief overview of the P2 system - at Abel Cine in LA this coming Thursday, Feb 8th. It's an open-house event and all are welcome to attend as it will clarify the facts of P2 and dispel the myths. |
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I take it all back then! P2 is NOT difficult to work with. Never said it was a codec or anything of that nature. Didn't mean to p*** you off, just to tell a simple story about what I have witnessed myself. I prefaced my post with the words, "just my opinion," but maybe I should have put them at the end also. Sorry-----Mike |
Relax, Mike, nobody's miffed. This forum exists so that people can express opinion or, share facts. And the facts don't agree with some of your opinions.
Nobody is going to squelch your opinions, but be prepared to have them challenged when they're not fact-based. |
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The only "fact," that I have been able to find in your post is, "Panasonic's investment in the system isn't a light-hearted test market, and they have in point of fact dedicated to moving away from tape-based cameras as shown by the recent and aggressive announcement of 2 new P2 HD bodies." The rest "is" your opinion and I do respect it as such. You do seem to be heavily invested in this system, if you are using it and teaching classes etc.. I generally find where there is a need to "clarify the facts of P2 and dispel the myths," that myths tend to originate from some truths. I just wanted to tell a story for the benefit of some and give my all too humble opinion. I do, in fact, hope that I'm wrong, because I like the system concept, just not the current practicality of it. The fact, that you are still using 8gig P2 cards one and a half years after the cameras introduction is telling to me. I would have thought that if it were cost effective and practical, we would have seen 16gig and 32gig cards already. The fact that ENG cameras have 5 slots only means to me that you’ll be paying big money to fill them. Maybe I should just edit my other post and keep my opinions to myself. It is still an option for now Best of luck to you and I hope you get the big cards for a low price very very soon. I’m out----Mike |
Actually, the ensuing debate is one of this forums greatest assets. And there is a difference between debate and back-and-forth ranting, which I can thankfully say this is not. So let me share some facts about P2 - and some of my own history on why I selected it and have become one of it's most vigorous proponents - and hopefully shed some light on the not-so-obvious. First some history:
About 3 years ago when I realized I had to self-publish/produce "Photos in a Flash" it became painfully obvious I was going to have to do my own research & testing and endure a strong learning curve with HD. At that time the HVX had not yet been released and was still "vaporware" although I had been given a lot of technical data from a local retailer who proposed carrying the system. I had my years of commercial print and being a DP on a few films to provide the background for creating visuals but the handheld HD market was still in it's infancy and for the most part an unknown entity in my locale; the HD100 was just about to release, Sony had the Z1 for a few months and both Canon & Panny had not yet joined the fray. The larger ENG P2 cam had already been out for a little while and gained limited favor with ENG crews and a few production houses. At first P2 didn't make sense to me; there were only 2gb cards (can you imagine trying to use those on an HVX?) and the idea of a $30k+ body with a $15k lens for SD-widescreen just didn't add up, not on my limited budget. So I trained my sights on HDV and as the cameras came out I tested them all. What became quickly apparent to me was that having to do most all the shooting and editing myself a tapeless workflow was going to be tantamount for quick turnaround edits and an easier archiving methodology. At that time the HD-versioned Firestore was buggier than a poodle in a Florida swamp (it's still not 100%) and with the Z1 wasn't a truly tapeless system (then) since it was only designed to record along with the tape run, so that eliminated it as an option. So that meant that if I really wanted a truly tapeless workflow I only had 2 options: XDCAM or the (then) upcoming HVX and P2. Initially on paper both P2 and XDCAM seemed near-identical in potential and then realized how limiting - and expensive - XDCAM was going to be. For example: XDCAM is like tape in that you only have 2 options for ingest; either dub out from the camera body or, use a deck - an expensive one. However with P2 I could do those plus use a laptop, a P2 drive or the (then) upcoming P2 Store. And, I could hot-swap during recording and keep things rolling non-stop if recording to a laptop directly wasn't an option. Then there was the issue of XDCAM being a rotational, spinning media and not solid state; Sony's own published whitepapers address the fact that in non-studio environments (location work) the robustness of the XDCAM media was compromised to a certain degree where it's reusable lifespan was significantly reduced and, head alignment would be required on a regular basis to prevent read/write errors. That from a body starting price of (then) about $20k. So XDCAM started to not make sense. All of a sudden P2 started to make a lot of sense; tapeless, solid-state, the ability to repair clips, instant access, multiple ingest options, no reduction in reusability etc. etc... Add that to the DVCPRO codec all the cameras shoot and I realized I had a diamond-in-the-rough with the HVX and P2. Although currently limited to the 8gb cards P2 presents the greatest flexibility and stability of any media type available today whether it's tape, XDCAM or SD/CF-flash based. Yes, long-form projects do present a special challenge for HVX shooters and in many instances the HVX is not best suited to that kind of work - as you pointed out in your story. But not every camera is a good fit for every type of job. I often help out a friend shoot weddings on his duo of Z1's; there's no way we could pull that off as easily with just 2 8gb cards per camera - unless we shot in DV mode which would be pointless. As mentioned earlier - and in other posts - the 16gb cards were *supposed* to be out now but Panny delayed their release to address some stabiilty issues that arose. Lastly, don't be put off or defensive about any commentary I may make to rebut anything you - or anyone else - shares on this forum. If we didn't have people challenging us for accurate information this forum would be useless. |
The Firestore has been updated so that you can record in Native modes.
Plus it can record direct to DVCPRO HD if you want. This box now looks like a good deal. I think most HVX owners will get the Firestore as opposed to 16 gig cards..... P2 cards are still necessary for some work. Plus the RED is said to be developing a 320 gig Raid drive for $1000 isn't that cheaper than an 8 gig card? |
The Firestore isn't a replacement for P2; it's still spinning media which means it can't handle shock and it doesn't offer "repair clip" and a few other P2-specific functions because it's recording through the Firestore software conversion. I have not tested the latest version of the FS4 ProHD but on paper it looks to be a stop-gap between the larger cards. Even the upcoming Cineporter won't be a P2 replacement since it is also spinning media although it looks to be much more robust than the Firestore and because it is designed as a true P2 device it *should* allow for the added P2 functions - time will tell.
The RED concept and it's accessories are a whole new ballgame unto itself and can't be compared to P2, XDCAM - or any other system for that matter. I don't doubt that RED can provide their drive as planned but any "drive" means spinning media with it's issues. Here's how to put P2 in perspective from both a usability and cost perspective: Imagine if your PC or Mac replaced all it's internal HDD space with RAM, how costly would that be based on current RAM pricing? Now imagine just how much more stable and robust your computer would be: No spinning platters or heads to worry about, no issues about how fast the platters spin, a greater tempurature variable environment, near-zero latency access times, I/O speeds that would be astronomical by todays standards, and no worries about accidentally bumping the desktop or laptop. Now what if all that RAM were in a RAID array? And what if it had the ability to self-heal as in the "repair clip" function? P2 currently has a maximum I/O of 640M/bs which surpasses any single drive or even RAID HDD array by far. I have a 12-disk Fibre array for my edit suite; the best I/O speed I can push is about half that of P2. Here's another perspective: Take a Firestore, RED Drive/Array, XDCAM disk and a P2 card and hold them at shoulder height - then "accidentally" drop them onto the floor - as if you were handing them off to someone else and they missed their grip. Which one do you think is still going to work when you pick it up? That said, the frustration (and one I share) is that the current 8gb limit hurts only the HVX in it's 2-card acquisition capabilities; the shoulder-mount bodies have 4-5 P2 slots so they don't suffer from this limitation, and until the 16 cards do finally arrive anyone doing long-form on the HVX will be scrambling for alternatives - of which there are, it's up to the individual production needs to decide which one is best suited. Quite simply, P2 is the most forward-thinking and future-proof media type available today; as RAM pricing falls and the manufacturing process becomes refined P2 will mature into greater capacities for lower costs. |
"Just my opinion, but I don't think that the P2 card system is going to last. I don't think it is catching on and that will limit the development of more and bigger cards. It is because of the cost of course. If they can't sell tons of them, they can't afford to put money into development"
well.. umm.. sorry to say, but here in Aus, the ABC just invested $2.5m in a P2 HD system, from cards to cameras to NLE's |
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And Robert since you were mentioning the robustness of no moving parts, I was at a show last week where I threw (hard) the card on the floor, I then stomped on it and then put it back in the camera and it played. ;) I would say, cool. Customers were in disbelief. All the best, Jan |
Hello Jan,
Good to see you here again. Robert - of course the Hard drive systems cannot replace P2 100%. The updated firestore is interesting for interviews etc... Where the camera is not moving around multiple set-ups. I do not like recording with a computer...More bad than good can happen there. I know many shooters who would get on with P2 if bigger capacity cards were available. 16 gigs is what 40 min of 720 24pN? That would be great and make the HVX200 really attractive to tape shooters who are not convinced? I still make it fine with only 2 4 gig cards....but I really could have used larger cards last week. The client was getting confused because they have only shot with tape.....I would dump the cards to the hard drive, check and then re-format the card, shoot some new material and then the client would want to see the previous material. I would walk back to the computer and show them the clips. Their heads were spinning because he did not realize that the clips were in essence digitized. And at lunch I edited the good takes together and compressed an H.264 clip that we uploaded to the remote client. That would have been much harder and taken more time if we were tape based. |
Just so everyone is clear, the quote in Jan's post actually came from Mike T, not Peter.
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Seriously, anyone who isn't 100% sure of what P2 is, how it works or why it's better than the options should attend the Abel Cine presentation. For those who can't attend I can offer a modified (self-playing) version of the Keynote presentation I created for this session (requires the latest version of iWork '06 - Mac only, sorry). |
So ABC Aus is in and FOX here in the US too! Great, they sure have the money for it. Now, please give me the price for a new 16 or 32gig card if I decide to switch cameras. I was surely not talking about networks and the like. I'm talking about the regular consumer/prosumer.
Solid state memory is indeed the way to go and is and will be the future, but will it be P2 cards? That is what I'm concerned with. Someone packages the memory in a different card style and introduces it in a different camera system, and then who decides what we will use, not Panasonic! Look at the recent history of memory cards and such. Sony memory sticks and Pro memory sticks, MMC/SD cards, Compact Flash cards, Smart Media, and on and on! Memory is memory and thank God it is getting cheaper to manufacture and buy. But, what if Sony or Canon or someone else jumps into the same market, and you know they will! What if one of the other manufacturers of memory decides to jump in on its own and has a great memory system to sell to camera manufacturers? They could dominate the market. A simple card, a universal socket, and straight forward marketing to camera manufacturers. A winner for a while, just like MiniDV was! MiniDV has lasted a good while now and will hang on a few more years, but it will go by the wayside before long. The difference that I see is that the MiniDV cassette tape and codec was adopted by a consortium of camera manufactures, thereby giving it some weight and a more solid future. Who, besides Panasonic, is building cameras using the P2 card system? There may be some I have not heard of, but none that I know of. Is it proprietary, are they licensing it to other camera makers? Someone will come along and market to the normal consummer/prosummer/professional and still be there for the network types. When I was at NAB last year, I saw dozens of cameras and systems that are never mentioned here on this forum. And, for good reason, as we will never use them or buy them. They are for the huge networks with seemingly unlimited supplies of money. I just think that for us, on this forum, the simple truth is that if the cards don’t get real big real soon and cost a lot less, that the P2 system will not be the one we on this forum are using to shoot our independent films, weddings and commercial presentations on a year or two from now. Solid state memory based systems will be the future, just maybe not P2 at the cost it is now. A quick check finds the price of an 8gig P2 card at B&H at $1,129.95 each. I don’t know what Panasonic’s profit margin is on these cards, Jan?, but if I were Panasonic I would be selling them at cost or below. Otherwise I think that they will be replaced by another. I have seen a few things come and go in my days. This is just the humble opinion of a seasoned idiot, stirring up a little controversy. :) Mike |
I just love the spin put on P2 cards as "no moving parts". Well what happens everytime you take a P2 card out of the camera, you're moving the card. That mean a large number of electrical connections are being broken and then remade as the card is plugged into another device to dump the contents. Work out how many times this is done over an 8 hour shoot and the "no moving parts" concept flies out the window.
From my decades of experience no connection system will survive this for very long, a very large part of all computer problems are connection related. Keeping the connectors on the P2 card as clean as possible is going to help, any abrasive grit or corrosive gases will accelerate contact failure. The design of any connection system that's going to be cycled regularly requires very strict control of the hardness of the contact plating. Get either mating contact different and very quickly the plating is worn off exposing the base metal and that's when oxidisation starts, leading to high contact resistance. Panny might be able to control the contacts in the P2 cards and the cameras but users are plugging the cards into all manner of PCMCIA slots. Pelican make a range of small cases that house PCMCIA cards very nicely, I'd suggest anyone that's using P2 cards invest in those cases to keep their cards in. Do not put the card into pockets without a cover over the connector, getting any grit or lint inside the socket is not doing the contacts any favours. |
Bob,
As Panasonics' white-papers show, the P2 connector, which is a redesigned PCMCIA Type II, has been failure-mode tested to over 30,000 insertion cycles. That comes out to approximately 10 cycles a day for more than 8 years. So it's safe to say that you'll be upgrading the card way before it physically wears out. This connector has already proven itself in the rugged ENG environment with the first shoulder-mount P2 cam, it's even been in ultra harsh scenarios such as Antarctica, the Mohave Desert and the deep tropics. Granted, no connector could well survive having dirt or liquid heaped on it, but Panny addressed the issue of connection robustness quite well. I can attest to that myself from my in-field, dirty environment usage. And with respect to the "no moving parts" argument, you can't compare any solid-state device to something with a spinning disk that requires heads, either electromagnetic or optical, to stay in alignment and even to a lesser degree, tape. And taken to it's logical end, your perspective of "movement" would apply to the entire camera itself, not just it's media being physically moved around. Lets not forget that DSLR's and other digi-still cameras have been using solid state media - SD/CF/XD - for many years well before the inception of P2. I've had the first pro Canon DSLR, the 1D since it's release and I can guarantee it's had more than 10,000 insertion cycles using the same CF cards with nary an issue. In fact I've had the shutter mechanism replaced twice because I wore it out, but the CF receiver and the cards have held up. |
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P2 pointed the way to a tapeless future but has been surpassed (for general purposes) by more affordable and more widely available stock memory cards. Standardization and low cost will easily win out over any technological advantages of P2. |
Frankly, I'm getting tired of waiting.
IMO, no one has lived up to the promise of either the HVX or P2 technology. The camera's been on the market for more than a year, and the only viable alternative for long-form recording, (short of taking out a second mortgage for a bunch of 8GB cards - and then learning how to juggle), is the FireStore, which was still generating complaints from some buyers up to the latest firmware release. I'm tired of being so restricted.
I find projects are falling behind because no one has filled the void with anything large and reliable- not Panasonic, not Focus Enhancements, and certainly not Shining. SpecComm seems to be the best shot at getting something large and reliable any time soon. I admit I'm only a tiny, one-man show, and my budget is limited. That's what forces me to wait until something has proven widely reliable. But why is it taking so long? I bought my HVX nearly a year ago. At that time, the web sites involved read like it was already available, even though I couldn't find anyone who had it. Then, when it was, there were stories of problems. Based on posts around forums like this one, even today it seems like there's a 50/50 chance someone would have problems with it. The idea of upgrading any kind of electronic device through firmware is nice, even clever; but the practice seems to require improvement. What is this "Group Buy List" I've seen mentioned for the Cineporter? And, how does one get on it? Right now, it's got to be that, or wait for the latest FS-100 firmware release to be proven through comments in the forums. This wasn't meant to be a rant, but my patience is wearing thin after nearly a year for me, and somewhat longer than that for Panasonic to get these things right. I feel like I'm driving an SUV that's limited to a gas tank no larger than the one on my lawn mower: lots of promise for freedom, but almost uselessly-short on utility until the manufacturer perfects a larger tank and I can afford to pay the dealer to obtain - and install - one. I think it's arguable that some folks just aren't getting the message: it seems clear to me that HVX users want something that will reliably record for greater lengths of time...whether it "spins" or it's solid state. I think they'll live with the former while waiting for the latter, but please, somebody, get us one that is reliable and larger. I'd be happy even if it were only for DV thru DVCPRO50. |
Before I continue, let me just say I really, really love the debate. I have never been a part of any other forum that is so absolutely filled to the gills with so many technical and creatively knowledgeable people - ever. This forum rocks.
Now, to Jeff's points: - Nobody is saying P2 is impervious to damage of any kind, just that it is far more robust than anything else, save another solid-state media. I've had CF cards that were dropped or hit and went bad - nothing is indestructible. - PCMCIA is obsolete only in the laptop computing world, not the video realm, it's brand new. And as far as compatibility options, do you think XDCAM has more compatibility than P2? You have even less options with that. Will P2 last as long as tape has? Doubtful since the evolution of tech is much faster than 20 years ago, but who knows exactly what the future holds. I certainly don't think P2 is any less viable than Olympus' decision to create XD-type RAM. To a certain degree P2 can still be considered in it's infancy; it's a brand new media for video acquisition and as such is still finding it's "sea legs" if you will. Is it as widely accepted or as easily compatible as tape today? No, but as Jan has pointed out in short order you'll find the P2 footprint becoming much larger and with greater acceptance in all genres of production. As I mentioned earlier, I spent literally hundreds of hours researching the differing media types not only for today but for planned future expansion. P2 simply offers the most options - now and later - than any other system. For example: Can you put an HDV tape into an F900? Or put an XDCAM disk into a Z1? Or how about putting a Varicam tape into an HVX? No, none of that. But you can put the same P2 card in an HVX, shoot whatever codec/frame rate/format you want AND take that same P2 card and put it into any ENG P2 body you want and keep shooting. No other system offers that type of crossover usage or flexibility. Period. Is P2 perfect? Is it for everyone? Will it compete with RED? No. Not yet. (^_*) |
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Are we really talking apples and oranges here? Be forwarned that I know far more about fruit than I do cameras. :) |
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I am planning to acquire RED, but that is still a moving target and even once it's here, I will still have need for a camera like the HVX200 or something more oriented to ENG purposes that can also fill a secondary role to the RED One. The HVX200 with a 35mm adapter and a nice set of Nikkor lenses is a powerful tool. I would prefer not parting with it just yet and some of the other offerings coming up like the HPX500 are more broadcast oriented and not quite what I'm looking for. I'd love an updated HVX200 with a higher-res sensor block, an interchangeable lens mount and AVCHD or IntraHD recording to P2. 2 P2 slots are still fine if they can get the capacities up. Quote:
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P.S. Can you put a P2 card in an HDV camera or a Varicam or an XDCAM HD or Grass Valley Infinity or "Red"? Hardly a crossover media type. |
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Mike - the F900 doesn't shoot HDV, it's shoots HDCAM, DVCAM or DV (?). The HVX shoots every codec/format it's bigger P2 brothers do, no other system can match that. The F330/350 shoots HDV, but at a different bitrate than the Z1/FX1 and it's a totally different media - discs, not tape. No crossover. |
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At the price points of the HVX you have to look at the system. Does it work? Does it deliver results? Can I produce better work than what I was using? The whole argument about what is better is kinda moot. I paid $36,000 for my first BetaCam in 1985. It was obsolete when BetaSP came out. Then it was DigiBeta, then DVCAM then 16:9......P2 is here and now and plenty of people are using it with obsolete G4 laptops.... In a few years we will probably get HD on a 4 gig affordable flash card.... |
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http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=85746 |
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Here's something that will throw a monkey wrench in the entire media/camera/format scenario: P+S Technik the makers of the Mini-35 makes what they call a "Directors Finder" which is a Mini-35 scaled down to work with Handycam-form factor DV cameras and use the same lenses and give the same shallow DOF capabilities. Now, what would happen if you took that exact setup and adapted it to work with the newly announced AVCHD Panny cameras? Just how good looking would footage be - with good lighting/composition - from that "non-pro" rig? And how easy will the footage be to edit using the new codec/format? I plan to find out. |
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http://panasonic.biz/sav/news/070117/AG-HSC1U.jpg |
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You are basically saying that the Panasonic camera is best because of the P2 system. That simply is not true! And, when or if P2 does not pan out and become cheap enough for all to use, it will be a big problem. Can you say orphan! Sorry, but it could be just that bad. When I see P2 card slots in the new Sony's, JVC's and Canon's I will agree with you and jump on board. But, I think I can keep my legs curled up on my couch. Sorry, but I am not knocking Panasonic or its camera, but I just don't think P2 is the furture you think it is. Mike |
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I see that they've had this since 2001: http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...o-Awards.shtml Any idea of the price? And will it handle Nikon lenses? The site says "Available mounts: Arri PL, Panavision, Bayonet and BNC-R", but I don't know what I would need to do to get from here to there. |
Mike, it's not about the "which system/camera" is better nonsense, because that's all about personal preference, shooting style, typical production needs etc. My point about P2 is that for what it is and what it can do within just one brand of camera nothing else matches it's performance, robustness or versatility. You've made it plainly clear time and again you're not a P2 "believer" for lack of a better term, which makes no difference one way or the other to me, but even just from a non-predjuidicial viewpoint you have to admire Panny's aggressive launch towards a platform that many - like yourself - just don't get. Sony went through (and is still fighting unbelievers) on XDCAM and I'm sure RED is dealing with the same resistance to it's bold approach.
It is what it is - "that's my story and I'm sticking to it". Jon, I don't know the pricing for the finder, but logic dictates it can't be near the $10k starting price for the Mini-35. I just really enjoy the idea of a palm-sized camera having film-like DOF - and shooting HD to solid-state media no less. That just make me giddy. |
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When did that happen??? Cool though, didn't know they sold it. Not that I'm planning to buy one. |
Please stop with this "solid state" thing. as soon as you eject that card out and pop it into your old G4. disks start to whirl around and move your media. after you have moved your footage over to some sort of consumer harddrive you then wipe your footage from the "solid state" device and push it back into the camera slot. I bet I can drop a whole box of XD disks and not worry about a single frame. Can you say that about your ext fire wire drive?
Also any Panasonic P2 deck with the same functions as the XD deck is gonna run about the same price. And how does Panasonic tell you to archive your project " just lay it back to tape" or "burn it to disk." Why don't you just "burn it to disk " at the start and skip all of those other steps. |
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