Shoot Uncompressed 14-bit RGB(4:4:4) on your HVX200
 

Hello DVInfo members,

Reel-Stream is proud to announce the Hydra Uncompressed Digital Acquisition system for the AG-HVX200. Based on the same concept behind the Andromeda system for the DVX100, Hydra extracts the pure full RGB(4:4:4) data available directly from the imaging block of the HVX200. This allows for uncompressed RAW recording at up to 14-bit RGB linear color, 2K resolution, and extended latitude among other advantages. Hydra functions at all frame rates normally supported by the HVX200. Preliminary specs include up to 86dB digital dynamic range, and photographic latitude comparison tests (including DVCPROHD, DVCPRO50, etc) will be posted on our website.

For more information and preliminary specs, please visit our Hydra forum at:
http://forum.reel-stream.com

or our website:
http://www.reel-stream.com

Feel free to post your questions on DVXUser or email Juan@reel-stream.com

If you will be at NAB2007, come visit us at booth C11221 for more information.

Cheers,
Juan P. Pertierra
CTO, Reel-Stream LLC

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PRESS RELEASE
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REEL-STREAM TAKES AFFORDABLE UNCOMPRESSED HD ACQUISITION TO NEW LEVEL
New Product Extracts Pure Uncompressed 14-bit RGB HD Video from Panasonic’s AG-HVX200(TM)

West Lafayette, Indiana (March 26, 2007) - Reel-Stream LLC today announced the Hydra(TM) Uncompressed Digital Acquisition system for the Panasonic AG-HVX200(TM) camera. Expanding the capabilities of their current AndromedaTM product for the Panasonic AG-DVX100(TM) camera, Hydra(TM) offers full bandwidth RGB (4:4:4) uncompressed digital video recording at 14-bit (linear RGB) color and up to 60 progressive frames per second when installed on the HVX200. The system extracts pure uncompressed 2K RGB data available directly from the digital imaging block of the camera, bypassing all internal compression, decimation, color conversions and other processes. The result is a video capture with increased resolution, increased latitude and zero compression artifacts for an image purity that rivals much more expensive high-end cameras at a very affordable price.

Both Hydra(TM) and Andromeda(TM) reside entirely inside the host camera, only adding a few grams of weight. The only visible change is the addition of an external port for the uncompressed data. All original functions of the cameras remain unaffected.

Both systems are bundled with the SculptorHD(TM) software solution which provides a front-end for recording the uncompressed video stream, serves as a multi-function monitor and handles the process of batch exporting captured raw footage into multiple media formats. SculptorHD(TM) is currently available as a Universal Binary for Mac OS X. Also included is xLUT(TM), a full-featured camera-independent Look-Up Table editor capable of exporting in a variety of LUT file formats.

HydraTM for the Panasonic AG-HVX200(TM)is scheduled for release during the second half of 2007, with support for other cameras to follow. Andromeda(TM) for the Panasonic AG-DVX100(TM) is currently available and can be ordered directly from the Reel-Stream website.

For more information, come see us at the NAB2007 show, booth C11221, Las Vegas Convention Center (April 16-19), or visit our website at www.reel-stream.com

Which other cameras will folow?

Will there be one for the Canon XH cameras?

Thanks, and congratulations,

Strange. I would think the xl-h1 would be less of a stretch for 2K,
and it seems the CCD would be much easier to access as well.
But if he can get VFR out of the HVX200 @ 4:4:4 then that would
be pretty awesome.

Hopefully there is an industry standard way of capturing (i.e. Dual Link
HDSDI) in the works along with their proprietary software.

*Looks over at RED titanium R and back at computer screen*

grumble...grumble...grumble....

Hello,

The Hydra hardware supports enough bandwidth to handle just about any prosumer/professional camera, including the XL-H1. However, the main issue with the XL-H1 is that it uses interlaced sensors. Since we are extracting the data directly from the front end and giving it to the user as-is, along with the tools to mold it and export it, with the XL-H1 we would also have to create an alogorithm to de-interlace the footage into something that looks like 24P.

I'd say another likely candidate is the HVC HD100 series of cameras, as they use 1280x720 progressive sensors.

We've been always focused on giving the user the pure, completely untouched data as it comes off the sensor. Given this goal, cameras with progressive sensors are somewhat better suited, but that doesn't mean we won't suppor the XL-H1 at some point. The DVX for example, has true progressive CCD's with global shuttering, so with Andromeda you don't get any rolling shutter artifacts plus you get 24 complete uncompressed RGB 1.5K images per second out of the front end.

About the interface standard, as with Andromeda we are aiming to keep this as affordable as possible, and HD-SDI usually means requiring more expensive professional hardware just get the signal. Hydra uses GigE , available on any modern computer with no additional expense needed.

Cheers,
Juan

Sorry for being off topic, replying to the what camera "subthread":) Juan if it is possible i think you would have a really hot system if you could mod the
Sony DSR-450WSPL. Its one megapixel 2/3" ccd block should give you a great startingpoint for the uncompressed material. Another candidate if it is possible mod vise could be the sony f330.

Indeed, Hydra opens up the possibility for installing on just about any camera. There is some adjustment required in adapting the installation to the particular system, but the hardware is now VERY flexible.

We will be basing our camera support list mostly on the demand for a particular system.

Cheers,
Juan@reel-stream.com

True. But I think there may be a few who would like to rent a HDCAM SR
deck and plug it in. If you've already got a H1, HVX, etc then you've got an
easy backup on almost lossless tape in which you don't need to worry as much
about drive failure.

It also opens up the capture possiblities to other editing systems, which
is a good thing.

Maybe you could offer it as an optional upgrade from the base package??
Not sure, but it would be a nice option for marketing purposes....
"Hydra system is the first to feature affordable 4:4:4 dual channel HDSDI
output, which is normaly found only in high end cameras such as Cinealta and
Viper Film Stream cameras." :) :) :)

Will,

Thanks for your suggestions :)

That is not out of the realm of the possibility with this system, in fact it could be an add-on.

What is important to know is that even dual HD-SDI is more limiting than the GigE output currently on the unit, you'd have to LUT the color down to 10-bits while with gigE you can get the full linear 14-bits. You'd also need two bulky coaxial cables to get 4:4:4 RGB 10-bit with HD-SDI, while with the current setup you get all the data in an easy to handle and very long GigE cable.

Another point is that for an HD-SDI signal to be standard and recorded onto a deck, it has to fit one of the SMPTE standards, which means limiting the raw frame size of the CCD to one of the SMPTE standards. For example, it looks like you will be able to get 1:85 native from Hydra in some ~2k x 1080 format. Some gymnastics have to be done to get that to fit into HD-SDI.

The other point and a benefit of this whole approach, is that since you will have Hydra plugged into a computer, you can output from the computer in the format of your choice, given that you have the hardware. So you can use the HD-SDI card you already have to generate your HD-SDI output, or use the DVI on the computer, pick your poison.

Hydra basically gives you ALL the data, exploiting the maximum capabilities of your camera hardware, what you do with the data is up to you.

Cheers,
Juan

It is going to make one awesome effects camera and studio setup, that is for sure!

Can't wait to see some examples.

Thanks Juan-
Keeps us posted on the possibilities with the JVC HD100-I'm game for offering mine for Beta...

Very interesting,
Juan,
What price should we pay to have the HVX200 modified?
Once the camera is modified, can you still use it the conventional way ie: P2-DVCPRO HD etc..
thanks
e.

What always confuses me about this is how it is advertised as 4:4:4 and HD (or in this case 2k) frame sizes. That seems like pretty tough data to extract from what I understand are 960x540 sensors. Just to clear things up, is it that the 4:4:4 RGB relates to the actual RGB 960x540 sensor data, which the software can render as 2k with an effective color sampling of 4:1.875:0 (just less than 4:2:0)? is that correct?

Right on GigE is a great idea. I can't figure out why none of the players have jumped on this yet. Maybe it's just too networky? Or perhaps they don't want to offer too much to the little guy.

Do you have any plans for a firestoreish device?

HDCAM sr tape costs $2 a minute. I could buy a laptop and a terrabyte of sata for the price of an sr rental and 4 hours of tape. GigE is awesome.

Could you pixel shift 2k out of the dsr450 or the hd110?

What about variable frame rates?

Wait I've got it. Just Andromedize my Nikon d80 so I don't have to buy another video camera until 3D rears it's ugly head.

Nikon Andromeda Reservation#001:)

Vill the hydra be avaliable for the hd 100 please Juan tell us. I think you will have many potential customers if this would be the case.

Another question will you be using your sculpture software for the hydra to or will it be something else. Another question is if you will support pc or will it be mac only?

Cant wait to check this out Juan.

Hello,

I'll answer these in order...

Yes, you can still record P2/DVCPROHD, normal operation of the camera is unaffected, it doesn't even know the system is there.

Noah: The acquisition is full RGB since every RGB pixel is recorded from the imaging sensor and transferred to the output as-is, unless the user selects to LUT the pixels.

Charles: All variable frame rates supported by the HVX are supported for uncompressed recording.

The JVC HD100-series are the next prime candidate. From what I understand they use 1280x720 sensors with no pixel shift, so native 1080P is out of the question, but i believe the sensors are 60fps capable. I have to say though, that the DVX and HVX will almost certainly win in latitude due to the imager block design which allows for larger pixel element surface area.

Hydra will come with SculptorHD 2.0 included. xLUT will be included as well, although we will be announcing some cool news during NAB for those of you that do LUT editing...

Cheers!
Juan@reel-stream.com

I don't think that is what Noah meant, and with the sensors in the HVX wouldn't this mean 4:4:4 at 960x540 resolution, or at 1080 something like 4:2:0 ? (As Noah says) An improvement on an unmodded camera, undoubtably, but not 2K 4:4:4.

I'm just imagining a scene lit purely with blue light, such that the red and green sensors don't respond. Then the resolution of the system cannot be greater than 960x540, as a 2K 4:4:4 system would be, by definition.

Yeah thats what I was getting at. I mean RGB recording is awesome, and a real feat considering at 60fps that would be 93MBps at 8bit and considerably more at 12 or 14bit. This is sent over USB? But in the end the pixel shifted resolution (in terms of luma and chroma) is only slightly greater than that of 1080p HDV. So to the end user the important things selling points would be 14bit and uncompressed, not RGB, since no one is actually going to be using this camera for 540p RGB, they probably want 1080 or 2K.

What I understand, Andromeda was not available for PAL, does
this apply to the Hydra as well?
Aren't we PAL guys as well in need of wicked dynamic range?
I figure the specs of the capture device would be diffrent, but I kind of thought since it's doing 60p as well then 25p should be a piece of cake.

Hello,

Do you feel the same way about just about every other digital cinema camera that uses a single chip color sensor? If you look at a camera such as the SI-1920 which uses a 2K bayer sensor, the Blue pixel array is 960x540. I fail to see how this is any different.

Take even a superb high-end camera such as the Arri D-20. According to their public specs, in 1920x1080 4:4:4 10-bit HD mode, it has 1440x810 active blue pixels, well short of 1920x1080.

Not to mention that a situation where you had all lights in a scene perfectly matched to the exact wavelength of the blue path on the prism, and all objects colorless and perfectly difussing the exact same wavelength is, to say the least, unlikely.

Noah: With Hydra+HVX the data is sent over gigabit ethernet, not USB.

About PAL support, obviously the initial release version will be for US models, but other models of the HVX should follow short after. The issues with PAL support on the DVX had to do with the USB bandwidth and the increased frame-rate and pixel count of PAL cameras, which is no longer an issue.

Cheers,
Juan

It probably isn't any different, and I didn't mean to imply there is anything wrong with such an approach, if that is what you feel. But even if the output from such a camera as you describe gets RECORDED 4:4:4 (as is the case with a digital SLR), it would be wrong to describe the chip as giving a 4:4:4 output. (At least at 2K.)

I stress I don't see anything wrong with this approach technically. Having a greater resolution for brightness than colour is exactly how the human eye works, and in this case the 2K bayer sensor you refer to matches the eyes behaviour.

In any case, this is a really cool development, I'll definitely stop by at NAB and see what the Hydra footage looks like and I can't wait to see where it goes for other cameras.

Also, Juan, regarding the JVC HD100 series, what could the Hydra theoretically do for it? That is, if you can say at this point.

The big question is why hasn't Panasonic or somebody picked you up by now? Obviously you've been doing a lot more with their cameras than they have! =D

All I can say is, ¡please hurry up and give us the JVC HD100 series version! We need it now :-)

all i can say is that this is what the HVX needed to make it a demigod LOL

Newbie question here, but what editing systems can handle the resulting footage from your mod? Specifically, is it FCP usable?
thanks

H.

What about Canon's new little HV20? I believe it has a true progressive scan 1920x1080 CMOS chip.

How much does it cost?

The HD100 already has 422 uncompressed output... you can stretch that data into a 444 colorspace if you want, but it's pretty pointless to do in-cam as it only makes your transport format that much more difficult to carry.

444 is nice as an intermediate. Let's be realistic though; none of these cameras are capable of completely filling a 422 container, let alone a 444. If you're going to do this mod, do it to a D80..

when will hydra be available?
 

When will it come out ?

Juan,

Are you able to shed some light on the editing side of things?


The thought of 4:4:4 HD makes one think of huge file sizes.

Do you know storage requirements and editing specs?

Thanks

1. When will Hydra be available?
2. How much will it cost?
3. Could it be used with a 35mm adapter or would it pick up too much grain?

I am very excited.


Any updates?

Five weeks and my questions are unanswered. Oh well oh well.

Yeah, I was stoked about this. Then I started to realize how bad they run the company. I live about 2 hours away from them and wanted to come down and check out the system and basically just see whats goin on. Juan never responds to my PM's or emails so F'em. That's exactly how you lose customers.

Red or bust!

We had been waiting for years, is their any other cameras?

You say that the it is hard to handle different formats. What about designing an FPGA front end that could be customised in timing and pixel formats, such an thing is relatively simple compared to the whole circuit?

I live outside the US, in PAL territory, and I would like to buy something complete and ready to go, and cheap? You could look through the cameras out there an only support the most suitable. There are few good models that support progressive at the same time, and few cheap ones. And some single chip sensors offer 720p off chip (yes not shifted 4:4:4. The latest Foveon based digital camera sensor offers 720p (but not supported in camera). An shifted 640*360 4:4:4 image could be made from this information prior FPGA.

Why not offer an complete package based on an cheap camera for 1K-1.5K? HV20, an AVCHD camera, but Sanyo HD2, Canon TX1, Aiptek GO HD are probably not high grade enough. This can't hope to compete with the HVX product, but allows more customers.

To expand your customer base, and subsidise development, why not offer make lesser version for HDMI, component, and HDSDI?

Have fun, and how much is the HVX200 version. I would be more interested in versions for the latest AVC Intra and AVCHD shoulder mount cameras coming out?

I don't know the guy doing this personally, but I know he has been active @ DVXUser though popping up only time & again to answer questions - the people that bought his Andromeda mod for the DVX (same thing but just for SD) are totally happy with it, so I think he's just swamped right now - they sound like a ridiculously tiny company, maybe just him and someone else?

Wayne, I think the R&D involved in designing the apparatus, doing the installs and testing will likely be too prohibitive to allow them to spread that far that quickly, plus the cost of the mod would exceed the cost of the camera itself.

Plus, and I might be incorrect here, but the reason Juan is able to pull off 4:4:4 colour is because of the 3chip CCD, so that each chip does one colour. The whole thing works by pulling each frame directly from the chips (one red, one blue, one green) and then combining them in-computer later where they won't need to be compressed, as opposed to your camera combining the three images in-camera and compressing them down to 4:2:2 before getting to the codec. If you're going with a one chip camera, the mod probably won't be able to do nearly as much as it can with a 3 chip, so it really has to be cost-effective.

The product has been around for a few years, there is enough time. There are just an handful of preferentially suitable cameras to support. Most of the work/experience done so far makes it easier.

I know an bit about small companies, and there are an few different things that maybe happening. I would say, if they haven't already, get an few good, particularly competent in their areas, people that are on top of things to look after customers and the various areas.

The product might be more than an cheap camera, but some lateral diversification can bring overall costs down, and make it as much, or less, than the camera. There are an lot of people out there that would prefer an cheaper camera. If such things, as $500 cameras, had descent SN and dynamic range, aperture and lens, would be preferable to an HV20 with HDMI recording. Of the cheap HD cameras, the GO-HD seems to offer significant SN and range, but the layout of handling and case is another thing. I personally am interested in the upcoming low end Panasonic HD shoulder cams (usually below $2k). I think such an thing (apart from the HV20) offers an significant target.

Businesses are complicated systems, and you have to treat them as such (and streamline) to get them to work more effectively (hence the diversification and specialised employees over areas).

Forgot to mention. Though I say that the GO-HD has "significant" SN and range, it is in reference to the other really cheap HD cameras, not that it is particularly good or anything.

Also, maybe they should wait and find out what Red is doing with their pocket pro camera.

I think that sculptor is an significant program, and if they ever stop making the hardware, they might consider releasing the source to the public domain for other projects to experiment with (putting together an cheap 3chip pixel shifted SD camera, that would be suitable for sculptor, is not out of the question, maybe reel-stream should consider this, I have, and have an number of top performance for price parts in mind).

Actually, is sculptor available separately for an cheap price Juan, or as an developer freebie? When I think of it, this would make some of my past cheap plans much easier.

It's rarely possible to have your cake and eat it, and I think that may be true here. 4:4:4 is certainly possible from the 3chip CCD, but 4:4:4 implies 3 pixels - 1 each of R,G,B - for each pixel position. Hence 4:4:4 may well be possible - but at 960x540 resolution.

But the HVX200 utilises pixel shift and is able to achieve an enhancement in resolution because of it - think of it as more pixel positions, more resolution - BUT now not all of the R,G,B information is available at each position. Hence it cannot be truly said to be 4:4:4 at resolutions above 960x540 - you can't have your cake AND eat it.

Normally this doesn't matter, the codec wouldn't be able to make use of it anyway due to subsampling. This is especially relevant of the DVX and the Andromeda mod, where in an unmodded DVX the limiting factor by far is the DV codec - not the chip etc. But in the HVX, using DVCProHD, the cameras native recording system is able to maintain far more of the full quality from the chip than DV could in the DVX - hence I doubt the resolution improvement over an unmodded camera will be as marked as it was with the Andromeda. Dynamic range is a different matter - DVCProHD, like DV, is still an 8 bit system - and here the Hydra mod could be more worthwhile.