HPX500, day 3

Steve Rosen · June 13th, 2007, 11:39 AM

I'm evaluating footage by loading it in FCP and comparing it to known quantities - previous films I've shot - on my editing monitor, an old Sony CRT studio monitor and a Panasonic TV I boaght at Circuit City - output through a DeckLink card..

I've looked at the component out on a 42" Panasonic off-the-shelf TV - I did that mainly to set lens back focus..

I'm still not 100% happy with the image I'm getting.. I can't seem to get the cyan out - if it was just "warm" I wouldn't worry, but it definitely has a greenish cast - even with Chroma Phase at +7 - Tomorrow I'm going to sart all over again with a "blank" scene file and build it one step at a time...

The nice thing about the Canons is that you could custom tune every aspect of the color - actually more options than most people would ever explore - but all I can find with the 500 is Phase, Color Temp1 and Color Temp2..

It's difficult because it's so subjective - although I do prefer warm to cool...

Tim Polster · June 13th, 2007, 12:39 PM

Steve,

I don't have your camera, but my DVC-200 has a color matrix in which I adjusted to fine tune the image.

Does the HPX-500 not have this feature?

I would expect a $14,000 camera body to have a color matrix.

Bryan Poffenberger · June 13th, 2007, 10:19 PM

Steve-

I have been frustrated looking at my yellow/green output for the last week, so I ran a little test (ala Barry Green) that might help you as well. This is probably old hat for HVX users, but it was instructive for me.

First, the monitor I’m using is a Panasonic BT-LS1400. I believe this is a first generation production LCD monitor. Happily, it has a blue gun, so calibrating it to the bars generated by the camera is a snap.

I set the camera up as Plain Jane as possible. Default settings across the board. Yellow/green output. No surprise there. I turned the monitor off.

Next, I lit a grey card, white balanced the camera, and proceeded to make 5 second clips changing the chroma phase by 1 increment from -7 to +7. I also looked at Barry Green’s book on the DVX100, that basically said this wouldn’t do much, although the results would shift slightly from magenta to green. OK.

I pulled the clips into my NLE, and used a color picker to sample the grey card area. Since grey should be an equal distribution of Red, Green, and Blue, I thought this might be useful information. I wasn’t interested in the actual values, only the relationship between the colors.

At -7, the red and green values were similar, but the blue was much lower. What do you get when you have more red and green than blue? Yellow/green. OK.

At 0, the Red was slightly higher than the green, the blue was still lower. What does that look like? Yellow/green with a slightly rose cast.

At +7, the red registers higher than the green and the blue comes up some, but still lags behind the green. Is a picture starting to emerge here? Yes, and it’s yellow/green.

At all three points on the continuum, the relationship between the red and the blue REMAINED THE SAME.

OK. Next I put the chroma phase back at 0. Since that is now a documented point, I changed the color balance in the same manner, recording short bursts from a value of -7 to +7. Barry’s book, again for a different camera but the same manufacturer, states that this will dramatically change the relationship between red and blue.

What I want to find, is the point at which all three values will be equal. I want to find the perfect grey.

Surprisingly, it’s at +4. By using a color picker, I am now at a place where all the values are within .5% of each other (i.e. 147,148,147). I turn the monitor back on. No yellow/green cast.
Does this give me the “perfect” setting? No. But at least I know where the camera is "seeing" neutral. From here, I should be able to introduce green or magenta in small degrees (but why would I do THAT?). I know that if I want someone on screen to look good in a classic sense (warmer), I’ll probably start from this setting, move toward magenta (actually away from green), and shift toward a warmer WB setting for skin tones. This way, even though the reds are stronger, the greens shouldn’t overwhelm a weaker blue.

I’m sorry this post is so long. I encourage you to repeat this test yourself, rather than relying on your eyes (mine hurt, by the way). Seeing this for yourself might help reduce your frustration and better understand what these settings are actually doing. If your camera is outputting values way outside of spec, you’ll also see it right away. Good luck.

BTW- Thanks Barry. Some things haven’t changed very much in the last four years. Your DVX book confirmed everything I was seeing.

Chris Li · June 14th, 2007, 07:21 AM

Great posts, Bryan & Steve!

I was wondering what lens you are using and if you or an engineer set the proper shading for it. Do the Panasonic camera/lens bundles ship already set up or do they just leave it to you to tweak by vectorscope? The yellow-green tint out of the box tells me maybe not.

Keep us posted

Steve Rosen · June 14th, 2007, 07:36 AM

Bryan: From the description of what I'm doing I'm sure you can tell that you are way more sophisticated about this than I am - FYI, I still have an upright Moviola in a corner of my office but I've never owned a scope - So what you're saying, if I understand you, is that with Chroma Phase at +4 you're getting the best overall balance?

Chris: lens shading is a good idea, although the cast I'm seeing seems electronic, not optical.. I have the Fujinon, and the Shading is set at DEFAULT - I'll try that later today..

Problem is I'm actually shooting this week - so I don't have a lot of spare time.. I've been using the settings I described above, but, as I say, I'm not 100% pleased.. it's easily corrected in FCP6, but I'd rather it was right outta the camera...

But thanks for the suggestions... I'm gonna tweak some more when I get a breath...

Matt Gottshalk · June 14th, 2007, 01:14 PM

Is anyone using a NON-CAC lens?

I wonder if that is what is causing the shift.

Maybe renting one of the more expensive ones and doing an A/B comparison might be in order?

I've been wanting to place an order for an HPX, but this is concerning to me.

Steve Rosen · June 14th, 2007, 04:04 PM

Chris was right (in part).. I had a little time this morning and ran the lens Shading.. It turns out the DEFAULT is for the Canon lenses..

It alone didn't fix the picture to my satisfaction, it got rid of the green cast - But, the thing I forgot about Panasonic from my DVX days is that they ship cameras with a LOT of chroma... So, shading, combined with dialing down the Chroma to -2 to -4 and setting the Chroma Phase at 0 to +2 pretty much fixed it..

I'd be curious about non-CAC lenses too.. This lens (the Fujinon) is okay, pretty good actually, a good servicable lens for the money, but I'd love to see pictures from a 30 grand lens.. Although I wouldn't want to shoot on a fishing boat with one...

Kaku Ito · June 14th, 2007, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Rosen

Chris was right (in part).. I had a little time this morning and ran the lens Shading.. It turns out the DEFAULT is for the Canon lenses..

It alone didn't fix the picture to my satisfaction, it got rid of the green cast - But, the thing I forgot about Panasonic from my DVX days is that they ship cameras with a LOT of chroma... So, shading, combined with dialing down the Chroma to -2 to -4 and setting the Chroma Phase at 0 to +2 pretty much fixed it..

I'd be curious about non-CAC lenses too.. This lens (the Fujinon) is okay, pretty good actually, a good servicable lens for the money, but I'd love to see pictures from a 30 grand lens.. Although I wouldn't want to shoot on a fishing boat with one...

I should be able to get access to those lenses since my contact (Canon broadcast lens dealer) will be helping to test HPX.

Tim Polster · June 15th, 2007, 08:03 AM

Steve,

Just curious, is there a color matrix in the HPX-500 menu?

Steve Rosen · June 15th, 2007, 09:25 AM

Tim: There are Color Matrix CHOICES - Normal 1, Normal 2, Flourescent and Cine - but as far as I've been able to tell not a way to specifically dial in (or out) particular colors like you can do with the Canons...

Actually, after (extensive) tests, the Cine Matrix is unquestionably the best when the Chroma is lowered a bit - the others are pretty awful...

Admittedly, part of my problem was my fault - First not shading the lens, and second, out of years of habit with Canon and Sony cameras, I had automatically set the Chroma level at +2.. as I said, I had forgotten the lesson learned in my brief stint with the DVX that Panasonic really likes lots of color... 0 to -4 is the range I've set up for various locations..

Ironically enough, last night I decided to shoot much of this film (the portion I'm shooting now) in black and white - so much for 4.2.2...

Tim Polster · June 15th, 2007, 01:24 PM

Thanks for your reply Steve.

I would have to say, the absence of an adjustable color matrix is a big stike agains this camera for me considereing its price.

The factory color compared to my matrix adjusted color on the DVC-200 is pretty different, with the factory favoring a greenish tint.

I am surprised to hear this.

June 13th, 2007, 10:19 PM	#18
Bryan Poffenberger New Boot Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: San Diego Posts: 10	Less green, more Green Steve- I have been frustrated looking at my yellow/green output for the last week, so I ran a little test (ala Barry Green) that might help you as well. This is probably old hat for HVX users, but it was instructive for me. First, the monitor I’m using is a Panasonic BT-LS1400. I believe this is a first generation production LCD monitor. Happily, it has a blue gun, so calibrating it to the bars generated by the camera is a snap. I set the camera up as Plain Jane as possible. Default settings across the board. Yellow/green output. No surprise there. I turned the monitor off. Next, I lit a grey card, white balanced the camera, and proceeded to make 5 second clips changing the chroma phase by 1 increment from -7 to +7. I also looked at Barry Green’s book on the DVX100, that basically said this wouldn’t do much, although the results would shift slightly from magenta to green. OK. I pulled the clips into my NLE, and used a color picker to sample the grey card area. Since grey should be an equal distribution of Red, Green, and Blue, I thought this might be useful information. I wasn’t interested in the actual values, only the relationship between the colors. At -7, the red and green values were similar, but the blue was much lower. What do you get when you have more red and green than blue? Yellow/green. OK. At 0, the Red was slightly higher than the green, the blue was still lower. What does that look like? Yellow/green with a slightly rose cast. At +7, the red registers higher than the green and the blue comes up some, but still lags behind the green. Is a picture starting to emerge here? Yes, and it’s yellow/green. At all three points on the continuum, the relationship between the red and the blue REMAINED THE SAME. OK. Next I put the chroma phase back at 0. Since that is now a documented point, I changed the color balance in the same manner, recording short bursts from a value of -7 to +7. Barry’s book, again for a different camera but the same manufacturer, states that this will dramatically change the relationship between red and blue. What I want to find, is the point at which all three values will be equal. I want to find the perfect grey. Surprisingly, it’s at +4. By using a color picker, I am now at a place where all the values are within .5% of each other (i.e. 147,148,147). I turn the monitor back on. No yellow/green cast. Does this give me the “perfect” setting? No. But at least I know where the camera is "seeing" neutral. From here, I should be able to introduce green or magenta in small degrees (but why would I do THAT?). I know that if I want someone on screen to look good in a classic sense (warmer), I’ll probably start from this setting, move toward magenta (actually away from green), and shift toward a warmer WB setting for skin tones. This way, even though the reds are stronger, the greens shouldn’t overwhelm a weaker blue. I’m sorry this post is so long. I encourage you to repeat this test yourself, rather than relying on your eyes (mine hurt, by the way). Seeing this for yourself might help reduce your frustration and better understand what these settings are actually doing. If your camera is outputting values way outside of spec, you’ll also see it right away. Good luck. BTW- Thanks Barry. Some things haven’t changed very much in the last four years. Your DVX book confirmed everything I was seeing.

June 14th, 2007, 07:21 AM	#19
Chris Li Regular Crew Join Date: May 2004 Location: Wash. DC area Posts: 154	Lens Shading Great posts, Bryan & Steve! I was wondering what lens you are using and if you or an engineer set the proper shading for it. Do the Panasonic camera/lens bundles ship already set up or do they just leave it to you to tweak by vectorscope? The yellow-green tint out of the box tells me maybe not. Keep us posted

June 13th, 2007, 11:39 AM	#16
Steve Rosen Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Monterey, California Posts: 895	I'm evaluating footage by loading it in FCP and comparing it to known quantities - previous films I've shot - on my editing monitor, an old Sony CRT studio monitor and a Panasonic TV I boaght at Circuit City - output through a DeckLink card.. I've looked at the component out on a 42" Panasonic off-the-shelf TV - I did that mainly to set lens back focus.. I'm still not 100% happy with the image I'm getting.. I can't seem to get the cyan out - if it was just "warm" I wouldn't worry, but it definitely has a greenish cast - even with Chroma Phase at +7 - Tomorrow I'm going to sart all over again with a "blank" scene file and build it one step at a time... The nice thing about the Canons is that you could custom tune every aspect of the color - actually more options than most people would ever explore - but all I can find with the 500 is Phase, Color Temp1 and Color Temp2.. It's difficult because it's so subjective - although I do prefer warm to cool...

June 13th, 2007, 12:39 PM	#17
Tim Polster Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 2,231	Steve, I don't have your camera, but my DVC-200 has a color matrix in which I adjusted to fine tune the image. Does the HPX-500 not have this feature? I would expect a $14,000 camera body to have a color matrix.

June 14th, 2007, 07:36 AM	#20
Steve Rosen Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Monterey, California Posts: 895	Bryan: From the description of what I'm doing I'm sure you can tell that you are way more sophisticated about this than I am - FYI, I still have an upright Moviola in a corner of my office but I've never owned a scope - So what you're saying, if I understand you, is that with Chroma Phase at +4 you're getting the best overall balance? Chris: lens shading is a good idea, although the cast I'm seeing seems electronic, not optical.. I have the Fujinon, and the Shading is set at DEFAULT - I'll try that later today.. Problem is I'm actually shooting this week - so I don't have a lot of spare time.. I've been using the settings I described above, but, as I say, I'm not 100% pleased.. it's easily corrected in FCP6, but I'd rather it was right outta the camera... But thanks for the suggestions... I'm gonna tweak some more when I get a breath...

June 14th, 2007, 01:14 PM	#21
Matt Gottshalk Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Potomac Falls, VA Posts: 215	Is anyone using a NON-CAC lens? I wonder if that is what is causing the shift. Maybe renting one of the more expensive ones and doing an A/B comparison might be in order? I've been wanting to place an order for an HPX, but this is concerning to me.

June 14th, 2007, 04:04 PM	#22
Steve Rosen Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Monterey, California Posts: 895	Chris was right (in part).. I had a little time this morning and ran the lens Shading.. It turns out the DEFAULT is for the Canon lenses.. It alone didn't fix the picture to my satisfaction, it got rid of the green cast - But, the thing I forgot about Panasonic from my DVX days is that they ship cameras with a LOT of chroma... So, shading, combined with dialing down the Chroma to -2 to -4 and setting the Chroma Phase at 0 to +2 pretty much fixed it.. I'd be curious about non-CAC lenses too.. This lens (the Fujinon) is okay, pretty good actually, a good servicable lens for the money, but I'd love to see pictures from a 30 grand lens.. Although I wouldn't want to shoot on a fishing boat with one...

June 15th, 2007, 08:03 AM	#24
Tim Polster Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 2,231	Steve, Just curious, is there a color matrix in the HPX-500 menu?

June 15th, 2007, 09:25 AM	#25
Steve Rosen Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Monterey, California Posts: 895	Tim: There are Color Matrix CHOICES - Normal 1, Normal 2, Flourescent and Cine - but as far as I've been able to tell not a way to specifically dial in (or out) particular colors like you can do with the Canons... Actually, after (extensive) tests, the Cine Matrix is unquestionably the best when the Chroma is lowered a bit - the others are pretty awful... Admittedly, part of my problem was my fault - First not shading the lens, and second, out of years of habit with Canon and Sony cameras, I had automatically set the Chroma level at +2.. as I said, I had forgotten the lesson learned in my brief stint with the DVX that Panasonic really likes lots of color... 0 to -4 is the range I've set up for various locations.. Ironically enough, last night I decided to shoot much of this film (the portion I'm shooting now) in black and white - so much for 4.2.2...

June 15th, 2007, 01:24 PM	#26
Tim Polster Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 2,231	Thanks for your reply Steve. I would have to say, the absence of an adjustable color matrix is a big stike agains this camera for me considereing its price. The factory color compared to my matrix adjusted color on the DVC-200 is pretty different, with the factory favoring a greenish tint. I am surprised to hear this.