I just watched the sample videos. IF this is a fairly honest representation of what is coming out of the camera, I am amazed. I know of no consumer grade device that outputs such a lovely rendition of skin tones, and even prosumer camcorders frequently fail.

Robert, whereas I totally share your frustration, I am not certain we can blame Canon so strongly. The canibalizing power of these devices on their prosumer and low end pro-gear is immense for certain applications, as the 5d has shown. Cineform helps to overcome the codec issue, so after ingestion you are looking at pro-grade footage.

Canon decided to avoid canibalization. I can understand that. They have to earn for the millions of dollars spent on development over the years, both in video and photo departments.

In the SLR market it's pro features not only image quality that drives decisions, because the quality level is already so high. In filmic video it's a lot more complex. RED was used by pros even when it only had record start, stop, exposure and shutter control. People even film with the Canon 5D 2 and all it's limitations just to get DOF and stunning image-tonality.

Thomas

I'm not unhappy with it... I think it's pretty amazing that consumers will be able to get HD video of this level of quality out of their cameras for a price this low.

oh Pete , everyone knows that nothing normal happens in Houston , or at least every Texan knows this ! But seriously SMA is a great judge for these types of phenomenon because people come from everywhere , even Houston . Have you visited ? Actually SMA is "fished out " in terms of photography . We still have the santa fe workshops but most people visiting don't even scratch the surface of Mexico .

And I'm sure the video from the 500d will be acceptable to most , but those who want to set their own f-stops will be turned off , and will continue to wait for "the camera" , whether it comes from canon , nikon or sony .

Interestingly, Canon's press release says:

Which is odd, because that's almost exactly what they quote for the 5D Mark II (12 minutes for 4GB.) Assuming the numbers are correct, it suggests that the compression on the Rebel is at a higher bit rate than the 5D Mark II. Why do that? Why not use the same bit rate and let people record longer movies?

I have no idea...I'll leave that to the conspiracy theorists.

Well Dylan , visit prolost or dvx and see what they're saying . I'm sure the video will be nice but it will still be uncontrollable and that's what makes the difference . I'll wait for any dslr or evf camera that gives me the control I have on my camcorder regardless of the brand . We all know what the problem is . The technology is available and it's cheap . We see one piece of the technology on one camera , and we see another part of the puzzle on another , and so on . The problem is that the boys in their conference rooms plotting marketing strategies want to milk the buyers for as many generations as possible . Because the infinite advancement of the technology isn't going to continue advancing at the present rate , they strategically plot how many sales can they enhance with the slow trickle philosophy . We're all just hoping someone bucks the trend.

It's unfortunate that the filmmaker crowd doesn't have the pull with Canon that the astronomer crowd does:

Canon EOS 20Da for the rest of us: Digital Photography Review

You'd think that if they'd cater to the astrophotography market, they'd be willing to bend a little for filmmakers? Just sayin'.

LOL, no... why would i care what people on those sites think?

This isn't a pro filmmaking camera for cinematography, its a consumer still camera with a movie mode. To expect or demand manual controls or professional features from a camera at this level is unrealistic.

Then again, Canon doesn't have a pro astronomy division to protect. ;)

What frustrates me (and I think most others arguing that way) is that on the face of it some basic & useful extras seem entirely possible and voluntarily left out. Why not just 4 frames/sec more and even PAL land would be happy. Why not have exposure and shutter being locked to a setting if desired (costs nothing, because the setting is there it just gets overridden). Seems so little to ask for.

It looks like a deliberate choice to cripple the functionality.

For all we know, Canon may show something at NAB or at least within the next few months.

Good point.

I still pray for a true hybrid camera someday. A 5D front end with an H1 back end.

But today's Rebel XTi announcement coupled with tone deafness re: the 5D tells me that I'm praying for something that will never materialize.

I'm a huge Canon fan. Have been for a while now. But I find myself looking at the EX3, the HPX300, and the Scarlet a lot lately. The era of the XL is clearly over.

Fingers crossed.

Seems like it's a copout saying that this camera is a consumer model so therefore it can't really be expected to have certain features that most photographers take for granted . The first dslr I bought was the original rebel and it's more than 50x paid for itself because it did what was expected from a camera - took photos with total control . The 1080/20p fiasco is a conundrum only god can answer but the lack of manual control for video smells of protectionism. Saying it's a consumer model and shouldn't be expected to be able to be controlled plays the same way both directions . Why can you then have control for still photography if it's only a glorified p&s ?

What I dislike is Canon's marketing of the 5D2 video feature giving "professional DOF control" and the like.

On one hand they want to entice video professionals with the amazing tonality of the core image and the look of full-frame DOF, but they pull the rug out by not offering manual control of the basics.

I love the 5D2 despite the obvious knee-capping it has in video mode...but this 20fps thing with the new Rebel is simply absurd.

Is it just me or is this new HD video thing on DSLR's owing to a basic truth about these products--

People have been quite happy with their DSLR's and resolution isn't as sexy as it used to be.

Voila!! HD video...but not pro.

for me It is just another Canon Marketing decision limiting the potentials, for the same price we should have 24p and manual controls. Its just a firmware update. Possible they fear it will hurt video camera sales.

really would like to know how many sales they are loosing due to the lack of 24p or 25p and manual controls.

But Barlow, it's their entry-level, price-leading D-SLR. Is it a reasonable expectation that it should have pro-level HD video? Even on the 5D Mk. II... the video mode on it is a photojournalist's add-on. I don't think they ever intended it to be anything more than that. Some folks are clearly succeeding in using it in professional ways, and I salute 'em for the incredible work I've seen, but I don't think the camera was *made* for that.

So does this one. The Rebel T1i takes photos with total control.

I don't get it -- have you actually downloaded and looked at the 1080 clips from Rob Galbraith's site? I don't see how anyone can call it a "fiasco." Sure, it's not what you want... but it's not a fiasco, far from it. I really don't understand the hand-wringing over this. What Canon have done with the T1i is to provide most of the specs and feature set of the 50D, adding a video mode that meets or exceeds their closest competitor, the Nikon D90, at a price well below $1000. No, it doesn't have pro-level video features, but why would you expect that on an entry-level D-SLR sitting at the bottom of a product line spanning five tiers?

20 FPS will please no one
 

The 20 fps 1080p reminds me of the megapixel wars and I believe will be not used much by consumers or pros. I've looked at all the 1080p clips and on the size screen and viewing distance that 1080p would even make sense, especially with no shutter speed control, the artifacts are just too much.

For consumers shooting handheld soccer games, birthday parties etc, I think they will quickly figure out 720/30p is a much better choice for big screen viewing. And obviously, pros can't use 20fps except as an effect. The lack of effective autofocus in video mode makes it a poor home video cam replacement for consumers and the lack, including the apparent loss of 5D's exposure lock in video, means it's poor choice for pros.

I think they just wanted bragging rights over Nikon - but for either technical (Digic 4 is not fast enough) or protecting video camera market (can you say HV40), 24fps was killed. I will be surprised if 1080p 20fps ends up widely used. On small screens, 15 - 20 fps is okay for throwaway footage, but please don't show me you 20 fps stuff on your 65 incher.

The GH1 is not perfect and we need more footage to judge it, but even with all the existing flaws, a higher price etc. it seems like a totally different and superior class for DSLR video.

Nikon's response will be interesting to see if they are in Canon's world or will step it up.

I told my son about the 20 fps thing.

His first response... "That's back to silent movies."

His second response... "Maybe we'll rent one for fight scenes."

It's a 17% undercrank! :)

And the 5D MkII is a 25% overcrank. Maybe some day they'll give us a camera with normal speed motion....

im seriously waiting for sony, those genius that came up with the EX1/EX3 will surely have something just as awesome for their DSLR.
I just hope i dont have to wait too long......

Heh. Smiley noted, but there's been some definite confusion about 20fps. Somebody here had made a "Keystone Cops" reference early in the thread, which I took out of public view due to how misleading it was (and to save that poster some embarrassment). There's a misconception that 20fps somehow means undercrank (for those who don't know, the term refers to a method of creating images that move faster than real time). The mistake here lies in the mistaken conclusion that since it was shot at 20fps, it'll be played back at 24fps (or 30fps, or whatever) and yield sped-up, jerky video. But that's not the way it works... it's played back at the *same* speed in which it was shot. One look at the sample clips on Rob Galbraith's site clearly shows that there's nothing about them that looks remotely like "Keystone Cops." I think a lot of dismissive comments are being made without actually having reviewed any of the 20fps video. It's *not* an undercrank because the playback speed is the same as the acquisition speed... you can't have an undercrank or an overcrank unless there's a difference between the recording and playback speeds. That doesn't apply here, though.

I don't think there's any viable potential for using video from the T1i in a professional situation. I think video from it under any circumstance will be hopeless without a tripod. I think it lacks far too many features to be taken seriously by filmmakers or videographers. But the sample clips seen so far do indeed bear out that there's nothing "jerky" about them, nothing that can honestly be labeled a "fiasco." To my eye it'll be perfectly adequate for whom it's intended: those who are in the market for an entry-level D-SLR well under $1000.

It's a 50D in a plastic Rebel body, and it has an HD video mode that competes with the Nikon D90. That's pretty much all it's meant to be. There's four other levels of D-SLR that are higher up than it is. The video mode is an interesting add-on, but it's no substitute for a camcorder, and I don't think it's reasonable to have expected it to be very much more than what it is.

Maybe people will get the point better if we turn it into a car analogy...

Can you believe that Ford didn't put a 600hp twin turbo V8 in the new Focus? Those idiots don't know what they are doing... Once again their commuter car division didn't communicate with the needs of their race division... They've completely missed the market and blown the fantastic opportunity to create a F1 ready Focus!

As a 5D2 owner, I feel your frustration!

The 20fps baffles me too if it isn't processing related. Maybe they didnt put 24p into it so all the 5D2 owners wouldn't raise hell. :)

Actually the car analogy points out the issue well. The video mode is like one of those fake sportcar sidings, spoiler etc. - it's "looks" sporty but is fact an econobox engine and suspension. The video mode in T1i will please nobody at 1080, consumer, prosumer or pro and the 720 mode lacks autofocus, stereo mic and articulating LCD for consumers and 24p, audio input etc. for pros.

All Canon gets is "we have 1080p HD video!" in their marketing blurbs but the video in this model seems a lot like a dealer installed option and not factory engineering.

Actually, that's not very accurate.

We know that it can do 1080p20 and 720p30. We also know they can scan their chips at 1080p30 (5DmkII) Whether this is due to the Digic IV processor or not I do not know. Regardless of that we do know there are many chips on the market with lesser specs that can scan at 1080p30

I'm guessing that this chip is perfectly capable of 1080p30, 1080p24, 720p30, 720p24, etc...

That being said, a more apt analogy would be a speed limiter on an engine. Some cars can easily reach speeds of 120 mph, yet limiters keep the car below 95mph. This is more or less due to driver safety concerns.

Since there are no human lives are at stake, the only logical conclusion is the protection of the companies bottom line.

The camera is capable, but Canon has implemented a limiter. In my opinion they've done it deliberately.

I don't think any amount of complaints by customers is going to change that.

I'm guessing they will open up the manual controls (to some degree) on the 5DmkII in the near future to keep a certain demographic of people (i.e. us) from purchasing this Rebel T1i instead.

When have they ever *not* done that? When have they ever *not* stratified their product line. Why does this come as such a surprise to some folks -- how is this any different from their previous history, or that of any major Japanese electronics manufacturer, for that matter?

And Dylan's analogy is indeed perfectly accurate. We know Ford can put a 600hp twin turbo V8 in the new Focus. Their decision not to do so was deliberate. Some people are outraged by how badly Ford has misread the market... others never expected such a thing to happen in the first place. It applies here equally well.

That's really up to the editor, not the camera.

I'm producing a video for the music store where my daughter works. Vimeo is the intended target. It's all shot at 30p, but I'm stretching it to 24p to avoid dropped frames. Since the video shows the store and the instruments, rather than people/dialog, it looks perfectly natural.

If I had shot this with the T1i, I'd have the option of speeding up to 24fps, or just leaving it at 20fps. Vimeo should handle both just fine.

However, if I were shooting Ninja moves in a low budget action film, I'd definitely speed it up to 24fps. I'd do the same with the HVX or Scarlet. Nobody really believes that Jackie Chan is as fast as he looks in on the screen, do they? :)

I'm not surprised. Just making a bit of a rhetorical point to elaborate my limiter analogy.

I have a tendency to ramble...

Ah so... back in the old days, it certainly *was* up to the camera (camera operator, that is). That's where the term comes from, after all! But I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of this camera's buyers are not going to edit their video, just like they're not editing the video from their consumer camcorders. At least not to the point of speed ramping anyway...

They definitely won't be doing speed ramping, but lots of people edit these days - especially since the CF card won't plug into their DVD players.

On the other hand, once they see the slow decodes of the native MOV files (not knowing about Cineform), they might not try to edit twice! Actually, the second soccer game they shoot will probably be in 720 if not 480 for exactly that reason. And then 20fps is moot.

Actually on the Rebel T1i it's an SDHC card. Worth pointing out only because my Blu-Ray player, the very common Panasonic BD-35, includes an SDHC card slot (as does the PlayStation 3, etc.). The BD-35 will play back AVCHD video from any Canon or Panasonic AVCHD camcorder, but that's not what the Rebel T1i is. So it remains to be seen if there's any easy way to play back its video from anything other than the camera's own HDMI output. Is there a living room appliance that will playback an H.264 QuickTime .MOV from an SDHC card?

actually I think 20fps renders 1080 in this camera moot by itself.

I'm very surprised they went for 20fps in 1080, I mean at that point why even offer 1080 at all? The only thing I can think of it that its targeted toward consumers who don't know anything about 20fps vs 24fps, but who will see the 1080 and think thats an automatic step up from the 720 that Nikon offers.

What I don't understand is the people who seem angry cause this camera isn't a cheaper 5D. Of course they aren't going to undercut their hot selling 5D by loading this thing up with all the "missing" features of the 5D's video mode. If you ever for one second thought they would you've been deluding yourself.

They've positioned it on par with or slightly better than (depending on how you look at it) the D90 and significantly under the 5D. Seems about right to me.

Have you looked at the clips? I can't help but get the feeling that some of you guys are judging this thing sight unseen.

The Western Digital WDTV may be able to play back these files. I hooked up a simple USB multi-card reader with a CF card from a 5DmkII and it was able to play back the files ...sort of.

It was stuttering and appeared to be choking on the bitrate a little.

What is the bitrate of the T1i files? Is it less than the .MOV files from the 5DmkII?

I have actually and 20fps looks like, well, 20fps. It's completely non-standard unless your standard is turn of the century silent films. Still seems like a very odd choice and at least and in my mind disqualifies this camera's 1080 mode from serious consideration.

Come on Chris, you'd really go to war with a 20fps mode?

To clarify, I've never expected this camera to be the 5D in a smaller package, and if it does 720 well then that would make sense to me for the price point.

No, I don't think his analogy is accurate at all - it's more than they've put the Ford Focus engine in a Smart Car and are marketing it as a twin turbo (1080p!).

Here's the way it went for me. I see the press release - 1080p video! Read the release - 20fps. Hmm, that must be a typo. Go watch clips, research online. No, it's really 20fps. Plus, the most of the clips are misleading - very static motion clips on tripod. Look at the one handheld clip on Gizmodo - that's just ugly. And wait for some handheld soccer game clips.

The truth is the T1i can only do 720p video and Nikon's "24p, same rate as professional film" is sexier marketing than 30p. So Canon put this 20fps mode mostly (if not entirely) for marketing and product positioning. It's certainly not on the camera to benefit any type of end user. Regardless of screen size, people will choose 720p over 1080p on this camera (except those people who want the same bragging rights).

Some people objected to my first car analogy. There were a few things off about it, so I'm going to rev it up so that it is a PERFECT representation of exactly what's going on here, and will be obvious to everyone but the most obtuse.

First, I'm going to switch from the Ford Focus to the Ford Mustang, because the Rebel really is the Mustang of cameras... very good performance (relative the glut of P&S cameras/Focuses/Camrys) for a very decent price (compared to "pro" slrs/Ferraris/Porsches).

SO...
What we have here is a Ford Mustang.... and Ford has decided to load it up with the engine of the Ford GT (the 550 Supercharged V8 form the GT = 15mp sensor of the 50d)! That's a hell of a lot of car for the buck, no one would disagree! They throw in the brakes, steering, suspension, etc... for the same price. Sure, a few features like the carbon fibre and ground effects are missing, but they do still need to sell GT's, right?

And even better... They keep it the same price as the old Mustang! Wow, all that for the same price? A year ago you'd have to pay multiple times the price for the same thing by buying the GT (or a 50D).

And then... Ford says... "Its time for an evolution! Lets see if we can make this a flying car... FOR THE SAME PRICE!" (in case you miss it, flying car = a platform leap across the still photo SLR to the HD full frame sensor video market - you know, like RED charges $20k for?)

So Ford somehow manages to make that 550hp V8 pump out 10,000lbs of thrust and has two flight modes... 720mph and 1080mph. The 720mph is clean and smooth, but the 1080mph mode has turbulence about 1/3rd of the time. But there's one big catch... You can only fly in AUTOPILOT mode... no full manual flying controls. You tweak it, set your destination, and push GO, then you sit back and just keep it pointed in the right direction... it takes care of the rest.

So... You get a 550hp, Mustang WITH FLIGHT MODE for the price of a normal V6 Mustang...

And all you can do is complain about the lack of full manual flight controls and some turbulence at 1080mph?!?!?!?!

A year ago, half the people on this forum would have killed for a APS-C 720p video camera without hesitation... and never would have believed the price tag of $800.

oh well , let's hope the Russians can come up with a fix ! Instead of the 1080 , Canon should have implemented a very good 720/30/24/25p ......and put on the articulating lcd!

I agree - it's perfect if you are talking about the still capabilities of the Rebel - it's a market leader for DSLR still photos.

The video however, is no Mustang. Plenty of P&S digicams at 50% or less of the cost have better video now than the Rebel including slow motion, various frame rates, more controls etc. I mean Canon's own PowerShot SX1 does 1080 30fps.

What I would like to point out is Canon has now brought out a DSLR at both the highend (5D2) and lowend (T1i) with FF 35mm and APS-C sensors and some very nice video capability. In addition we have seen another Japanese company (Panasonic) add some very nice video capability to their u4/3rds product line. How much longer can they keep these big fat sensors with their magnificent low light sensitivity and DOF characteristics so many of you have been drooling over out of the professional video market?

I would say not a whole lot longer.

Looking forward to NAB 2009 announcements.

"Better video" doesn't mean slowmo and variable frame rates, those are just features. I'd consider an APS-C sensor capable of clean high ISO video at 720p better than a small 1/2.3" sensor that can shoot 1080 30fps. Big sensor + interchangable lenses = win. Otherwise, people would buy the SX1 instead of the 5D markII, right?

I definitely see the photojournalist angle about the 5D2, but even those guys would likely want some basic control over the image...if only for consistency and predictability from shot to shot. Those guys understand shutter, ISO and aperture. Why wouldn't that matter to them in video mode?

I guess when I say "pro video" I don't really mean feature rich or true pro video ergonomics...just basic, predictable, manual image control. When I said "HD video...but not pro", it might be better phrased as "HD video...no control".

I'm not outraged like others are because I've always been one of those folks who tries to exploit the strengths of a product and not gripe about its shortcomings too much. I take what's given and run with it.

The 5D2 is simply incredible video, (horrible rolling shutter, one frame rate and aliasing/moire' notwithstanding) but just not easy to get consistent results. And I'm sure that was Canon's intent, in order to tip-toe around various internal and external issues.

I understand Canon and all the other manufacturer's product stratification model; it's rational and sound business strategy, but misleading marketing (particularly with the 5D2) is another story.

But come on...1080/20p? The mind boggles.