Christopher,

Sorry I put you on the defensive.

I look at this website as a place of learning and open exchange.

There are so many ways to light a scene, just thought I would tell you what went through my mind as I watched the clip.

BTW, by mentioning angled talent I was referring to the angle of the shoulders with regards to the camera rather than shot composition.

normally I do prefer the 4 and 6 bank flos... but they were set up in another room for the other shot..... also, I thankful for their ( 500led ) light weight and can carry 2 on stands at a time.

like I said.... I only had a few minutes of his time and needed to get set up fast.

I've done a few green screen shoots with great success.... but sometimes it's just not an option. and.... I try not to freak out a subject like this one by making it a big production. Having a 24" 1080p monitor near the camera showing how it all looks really helped him get in the mode for it.... a literal view.

Like I said earlier in the thread.... the LEDs are fantastic for quick setup and durability.... I can rely on them to work. they do not compete with the output and quality of light that the 2, 4, and 6 bank flo lights do.

That's cool... I realize your just trying to help. I'm sure If I had more time on this shoot I would have styled it a little better. But I think a better tone to this forum would be to answer when asked... unsolicited opinions are rarely appreciated in any environment. This thread is about LED lights and I was adding to their merits and disadvantages via example.

They availability of low cost flo, led & hmi lights have made it much easier to achieve stylized images in both video and still photography.... I have started using continuous daylight fixtures in my commercial still photography more then ever.... not having to wait for my strobes to recycle.... really seeing what you get rather then having to look at a monitor for a preview is really nice.... the downside is that I tend to shoot a lot more frames.... a typical still shoot for a single layout can yield a 20GB folder of raw 16bit images with my canon 1ds3 or phaseone back. It's kind of interesting that when I opened my studio in 1989, I shot mostly 4X5 and 8X10 and used tungsten lights to shoot most things... Getting back to continuous lights feels more like home. If I had not entered into shooting HD video a few years ago ( client wanted footage of product spinning for tradeshow 50" screen ) I don't think I would have discovered that these LED's or Richards 150 hmi lights existed. Richard... you have a whole other audience to sell your lights to.... us still photogs!

Like I said earlier.... I do have a wish list of lights that do not exist.... large ( 18" X 24" ) LED daylight panels.... very thin, very light, 12v xlr, 4 times brighter than a 500led ( 2000 leds? ) just a simple fixture with black barn doors and bank switchable ( or dim'able if it keeps it's color ) .... I'd pay $1500 each for em and sell all my flo lights. I'd compliment them with 150 to 575 hmi fresnels.



chriswitzke.com

You mean, Flos are inferior in quality of light, in your opinion?

I haven't used LEDs myself, but heard that their light is harsher than Flo produces, although gives a little more throw so LEDs can be positioned a bit father from the subject. True?

Alex,

I think Christopher was noting that the LEDs couldn't compare with the Fluoros. The 500 LED is a sweet light and falls somewhere in the middle of a softlight and spotlight. It's a harder light than a fluoro source but it's compact, which for me, allows me to travel with the light, plus a 250 watt pro light, plus my laptop in a carry on when I need to do run and gun stuff. Nice to not have to pack it so TSA can't destroy it.

If I had my druthers, I'd take as many fluoro options as possible with me, but for easy of use and mobility, the LED panels are really nice.

the flos are a better light... regarding their light. The leds are better regarding how they travel and how tough they are.... but the flos are more accurate in color.... not by much, but if you A-B them, they look more natural.

yes the leds throw further.... kind of like a cross between a fresnel and a flo. they are fantastic for a soft hair or side light. Throw a scrap of diffusion on them and they soften up nicely.

My reason for preferring the LEDS is purely for their ability to travel well and how light in weight they are. When I travel a few hours with flo lights, I have to make effort to get them not to rattle in the back of the vehicle and to make sure nothing will hurt them.... the LEDS can just be thrown in with the rest of the gear... you could practically drive a car over them!

Would I be happy with a bunch of 500leds and no flos? yes ( they are good enough ) Hell, I love to have 20 of these little buggers! turn em on they they are instantly ready!

But I would LOVE a bigger light! a vertical 18"X24"X2" LED....

Incidentally, I was looking for a hair/backlight with harder light than Flos give.

Tough construction + lightweight + small dimensions + 12V native + bright + hard light (I want it)...

You guys are raving about LED 500's so much, I'll give them a look :)

By the way, is Flolight supplier the only game in town (on the budget)?

in the sub $500... yes.... they also sell a 1000led for sub $900... then there is the litepanel 12"X12" but it's above $1500...

Richard can chime in here.... as he is "the man" regarding all of these overseas sourced lights. He will have a LED source out in the future and it will be the light to own!

The panel that Flolights sells is made by a company in China called Yuyao Lishaui Photo Facility--in Yuyao China. They also make the non-dimmable flos that Flolights and Fotodiox sell.

I first saw that panel at a show here in China in the Fall of 2007 and thought of picking it up and selling it. I had no idea Flolights was going to sell it. I don't think anyone else in the USA is carrying it either but it wouldn't surprise me to see someone like Fotodiox start carrying it since they also buy flos from Lishuai.

We had already started a project for a 250 light LED small panel around the time I saw that model, which I never did anything with because I didn't like the LEDs we had chosen at the time--its so hard to find good ones.

Anyway, I was looking for something to offer in the LED line at that time. I bought an evaluation model and looked the Lishaui 500 over, but I had a number of issues with it. Thus, that's why I didn't carry it either--including the slight greenish tinge that the LEDs have. I also thought it was a bit overpriced for what it was. We decided we could do it better and could also try to keep a tight reign on costs using our methods and contractor factories, so we've been working on that between our other projects. The main holdup has been finding a really good LED thats not going to break the bank.

I try to find things off the shelf but often end up designing our own to keep costs down and offer the products at miracle type prices whenever possible. I hope our 600 LED panel intro pricing will fall into the $249 to $300 range and that's just about right for the kind of light that this type of panel is and what it can do. It'll be much like a 600 to 650w fresnel stuck in spot mode.

Darnit, Richard! Hurry up! :)

I need to upgrade my lights SOON. My DIY kit is great for some things, but I really could use something like the 500LED light.

I find that I often set up 3 or 4 lights (daylight) and leave two or three of them alone but one or two of them get moved around constantly when adjusting camera angle. I just can't seem to light a room and keep all the lights stationary. There always seems to be adjustment needed to get rid of a glare or shadow, usually from the key. My DIY lights are a bit rickety and bulky which makes them a hassle if lots of adjustments are needed. They also each take up a 12-gallon plastic crate so three of them is a whole handtruck load.

In other situations, I am in a run-n-gun mode and can only use one light due to time and elements like cramped quarters. A single daylight fixture to balance out a scene in a windowed room can work wonders.

I need something like the 500LED because it has minimal power requirements, it takes up little space in both the kit and location, and it is instant-on so it can be moved from one shot to the next without delay.

Unfortunately, I can only afford one light at this time and I have several paying gigs that need more lights than I own in a couple of months. I can borrow one light but rentals are not feasible due to the extra time needed for pickup and delivery. Small jobs just don't justify an extra two hours (and gas) to rent a light.

Maybe you need a beta-tester sometime soon?

Richard, realistically, what's the ETA on your LED lights?

I'm trying to determine whether to buy from Flolights, who have LEDs right now - or hold off and buy it from you later. But I need a reasonably reliable ETA on your side. You've been working on LEDs for a long time, but so far there's nothing on your web site.

Thanks.

I would say if you're in a hurry then do what you need to do. There's always something new being developed and you can either wait the time it takes or you can't. And, you can have good, fast or inexpensive but not all three. Fast is usually the one that screws things up one way or another when you go for that and get too impatient. Fast and inexpensive are impossible in any case.

Our panel is at least 2 months off yet. Because manufacture and transport is a 2 month process--1 month for manufacture and 1 month for transport. Everything always takes longer than you'd like it too and there are other products we're working on too. People don't realize it but they like our products because we do spend the time to get it right.

I can't make all the various parts that are in process go any faster than they do and everything takes the time it takes. Molds have to be made, a good and consistent LED has to be chosen, things have to be fine tuned, etc. Occasionally, things come back from a process and aren't suitable so have to be sent back for another try. It's all part of doing manufacturing right and if you're only interested in the end of the process of something on the horizon being developed then I would say stick with what's out there already and that applies to everything from PCs to Cameras too.

"I would say if you're in a hurry then do what you need to do."

What I need to do is conflicting with what I want to do.

"I bought an evaluation model and looked the Lishaui 500 over,"

So, do you want to sell your sample? I'd rather buy it from you even if it isn't one of your products.

Its in China right now. No quick or easy way to get it to the USA (or should I say the 50th state) at the moment.

Yes the P7 emitters in the Betty Pro are bluish but are easily modulated with filters and as you said- full power only and add ND is necessary to dim them. I discovered a highly unlikely DIY diffuser dome that turns the beam into a 90º pattern, ideal for interviews or whole rooms when nothing else is around. Look here...
http://www.gearninja.com/Images/HV20...V20_Acsy_5.jpg
I cut part of my closet light's 'bulb' ( just plastic) to extract a dome to fit my Lupine Light. I used silicone adhesive to attach it to the bezel. works beautifully!
http://www.iosss.com/shopping/images/ea20-40.jpg

I use my Mac Custom MAG that way. I set it to flood for a decent main and can bounce it in spot mode or use the spot as a hair light. I haven't done a picture of my actual light but here's the same light 'pimped out'
http://www.gearninja.com/Images/Alu/MacsMag.jpg

LED-Z is a great company to deal with. As far as I know, they're the only one of about three companies that are serious about LED's in Video lights. I use their LED-Z Mini Par on stands and sometimes mounted on my camera. I can't wait for them to knock out some versions using the Seoul P7 emitter.
LEDz lighting, maker of LED Lighting Fixtures for Entertainment, TV, Film, and Theatre
http://www.gearninja.com/Images/HV20...V20_Acsy_8.jpg

I absolutely agree with you Gary, I have been testing all types of LED's and filters and looked at the claims of several video light manufacturers ........ either their colour temperature meters need calibrating or they are just taking the LED manufactures specs as true

Christopher,
Do you know the brand name of the rechargeable HIDs from Sam's Club? Googling HID brings up a ton of various models, output ranges and configurations.
Thanks,
Ken

Well, for what it's worth, I just ordered a FloLight 500 LED light, and the sales staff there were very up front with me that these lights had a slight greenish tinge that might show up if you're using other lights as well. They recommended a 1/4 or 1/8 minus-green gel to correct the problem.

I went ahead and ordered anyway, 'cause the light looks like a good fit for an upcoming project, and I don't mind taping a sheet of gel on, if I have to. Might even leave it permanently on the unit.

We'll see how it works out.

We have two of the Flolights at work. I have been shooting greenscreen with them for months. They are superb as greenscreen fill lights, they are even enough to light a perfect interview greenscreen yet they are hard enough to actually aim somewhat.

I am not crazy about them as key lights but as a greenscreen light, they are awesome. I was curious if I could key with them as daylight for the greenscreen and still use tungsten on the talent. Would the keyer care if the color temps of the two light sources were different? Not in the least. Ran a battery of tests and you can key them as daylight, leaving them uncorrected as 5600k and use tungsten to light talent. As long as you are far enough away to avoid spill, no problems. I tried matching the Flos to tungsten by putting some full CTO on them. They keyed better with nothing on them. LEDs are cool but kind of wimpy in their output or at least these ones are.

I would love to evaluate the LED-Z, they look quite a bit more serious than the Flos.

Dan

For those who are looking for an European supplier of this kind of LED panels that Flolight is selling , take a look here: www.videogrip.net

Dan, have you tried Reflecmedia for greenscreen, instead of trying to light it?

I have no experience with it yet, but reviews seem to be glowing. Pricey though.

Those look exactly like the Flolight LEDs. Probably the same thing, but 220.

Dan, so you lit the green screen daylight, shot the talent tungsten and it worked OK? That's interesting. I might try that next time. About the LED output, they are only wimpy when compared to a more focused source. I compared the 500LED to a Lowel Caselight 2, which is the fluorescent equivalent, and the LED was about 1/4 stop hotter at 10 feet than the fluorescent. I think if the 500LED had the same mirror reflectors as the Caselight, instead of the pebbly stuff, they would probably be a good 1/2 stop better. I'm interested in adding the new LED 1000 to my package. That would be equivalent to the Caselight 4.

The brightest LED I have so far is about 135 lumens. That's the output coming from just ONE C4 LED. I haven't seen any that is mounted on a bank suitable for video so far. If there are any around, I would be interested to take a look.

Why, in your opinion, don't they work as key lights? Interested in your experiences.

TengSern, here are the ones I use: Teleprompters - Prompter People

The more common ones are from Litepanels, but they're a lot more expensive for basically the same thing. However, they have a clever design and can be arranged into huge banks as big as you want.

I key all the time with LEDs, especially when doing single or 2-person interviews. Because the LEDs I have are harder than the equivalent fluorescents, I always use diffusion gel when they're in close.

Hi Alex:

Yes, I have been shooting with the ReflecMedia ChromaFlex system for over two years, I used it for all of the interviews for the "The Dawn Of Sound: When The Movies Learned to Talk" documentary that I did for TCM as well as hundreds of others with it.

Love the ChromaFlex it but if your talent has glasses, the system is limited because it is going to put perfect little green or blue rings of reflection in said glasses. When you key the talent, you get holes in their eyes where the green ring was, then you end up having to do a separate matte/key and keying in something white or gray so that the LED reflections look like ambient light reflections.

I shoot a lot of DVD bonus material for classic releases and interview many scholars, historians and older people, many of whom wear glasses so this issue keeps coming up over and over. So we have been trying to develop a smaller, lighter greenscreen system with a PVC frame, a foam backed green fabric and two of these Flolights. In tests, we find that the traditional greenscreen using the Flos tends to have cleaner darks, is easier to pull a clean key. Hair and other difficult items key cleaner using the traditional greenscreen technique. But you must have enough room to use it and you must be able to carefully control ambient light and you must have enough room to eliminate spill onto the talent.

Bottom line, I am still using both systems. If they don't wear glasses or you have a small space, ChromaFlex is still best. If you have glasses and or room to shoot in, the traditional way, using the Flolights provides a cleaner key.

Like everything else in this damn business, there is no single best way of doing it ;-)

Dan

Hi Bill:

Yes, shot an extensive battery of tests with the following:

1. Greenscreen lit with uncorrected Flos 5600k with talent lit with uncorrected Tungsten 3200k

2. Greenscreen lit with corrected Flos/full CTO with talent lit with uncorrected Tungsten 3200k

3. Greenscreen lit with uncorrected Flos 5600k with talent lit with corrected Tungsten/full CTB

Number one consistently gave us the best results using three different keyers. Sometimes you have to break the rules and just see what works. I don't like putting CTB on tungsten because as we all know it eats all of the output and the Flos are the same, with full CTO, they run out of throw pretty quickly.

Yes, I guess I am a traditionalist as far as output. I am use to firing up a 1k or 650 fresnel and having that amount of output. I own two Diva 200s and when I shoot with them, they seem similar in output to the Flos, nice quality of light but it falls off so quickly compared to tungsten instruments.

Dan

Cleaner key w regular greenscreen - that's what I suspected... :)

Thanks for the excellent, detailed explanation!

Reply
 

Hi Brian:

It's not that they don't work at all as a key source. It's just my preference for interviews. To me, nothing comes close to a 1k open face tungsten light through my medium Chimera. My Divas are the same, they don't render skin tones as nicely, they don't have nearly as much wrap since they are a much smaller source than a Chimera.

I shot a few interviews with them as key sources and they are kind of in between a hard light and a softlight. Harsher than a softbox, but not as cool looking as a fresnel. If you put a Chimera onto a Flo, you are killing all of the limited output. So to me, they are outstanding as a broad source for lighting BGs and green screens, not so hot for lighting talent. Plus that green spike they have, dealing with minus green is a hassle.

I think LEDs are the future, they will eventually replace tungsten, I just don't think that they are quite "there" yet as an all purpose source.

Dan

O.K., I just got my LED 500 and tested it out with my HD100. I did a manual white balance on a white card with the LED 500 as the only source, and came up with a color temp of 4300K, instead of the 5600K it's supposed to be!

I haven't put any minus-green on it, yet since my Rosco supplier isn't open on weekends. Could the green spike cause a drop in color temp like this? I'm really not too keen on putting CTB on this to raise the color temp.

Anyone else notice this? Is it possible I have a defective unit?

I checked mine with a Gossen color temperature meter and got between 5500 and 5600K, but closer to 5500 than 5600.

Hmmm... I'll have to test the HD100's white balance against some other known light sources, just to make sure it's accurate.

If so, I'll probably have to return the LED 500's. 4300 vs. 5600 is way off the 5% margin of error quoted in FloLight's technical specs.

hmmm... odd, I had my wb mem A set at 5600k for the mccall vid in the earlier post with the 500led's. I've never had to gel them to match osram 55w flos.

by the way.... I've read somewhere that color meters can't measure leds accurately.

White balance & colour meters tend to only measure the red/blue of the light spectrum not the green/magenta part (there are some meters that measure G/M separately)

So a reading of 5600K wont tell you how much green is in your light only where on the red/Blue scale it is - this is true of LED, flos & HMI (due to their nature it's less of an issue with Tungsten light)

So, if I'm getting a reading of 4300K, instead of 5600K, these lights are probably out of whack? ...sigh...

Guess I'll have to send them back.

The only real way to reliably test discharge and LED color temperatures (unfortunately) is with a spectroradiometer and integrating sphere. All those sources with a correlated color temperature (CCT) can't necessarily be accurately read with a simple color temperature meter. Most of those meters were made to work well with full spectrum lighting like tungsten. They don't understand the spectrum of anything with a correlated color temperature. When we want to accurately read the color of a bulb or LED, we have to take it to a testing facility since an integrating sphere isn't found just anywhere and they aren't portable either as you can see below...

Good luck on that. I had to send my LED 500 back to PP because it was NOT 5600k, it was 4300k like yours.

They sent me the exact same fixture back and it was still 4300k.

Buyer beware.

Fabulous! I've never seen a picture of the sphere before.
I concur with your statement regarding the fidelity of readings made with a spectroradiometer versus a color temp. meter.Indeed, this reveals that the illuminations industry simply doesn't adhere to strict standards for measurement or labeling of light sources. It's a hugely frustrating issue that has had me at odds with the IEEE, and NIST at times. Surely there must be ISO compliant manufacturers?