let there be light
 

OK, I need to buy some lights. If I could get your opinions on what to get, I'd appreciate it.

I need something cheap. Not Home Depot worklights cheap, something pro-summer level. They would have to come with stands, barndoors, adjustable light (narrow or wide) I guess.
I know cheap is bad, but I don't plan on having these forever, just to get me started.

How much wattage (per light) should I get for general use?

Photography lights seem to be cheap compared to video lights. Is there much of a difference between them besides the fact they photo lights come with umbreallas instead of barn doors? :)

I think someone mentionned an article on the Watchdog about modifying Home Depot lights. I looked for it but couldn't find it. Could someone post a link if it's there?

Thanks!

Dylan,
Good for you! Taking the next steps towards learning how to light a scene is a huge leap towards getting a professional-looking result. Here are a few suggestions.

1. Using the Search button (above) will probably be productive, since this is an oft discussed topic here.

2. If you're a novice to lighting take a look a some of the books featured in the "Read About It" forum here. There are several very good books on the principals of lighting noted in that forum. Good, reliable lighting equipment is not cheap. In fact, even a basic set of good lights will run you $1,000. Point being that leading the effort with your credit card rather than your knowledge can get -very- expensive. Other than Home Depot work lights (which you said you discounted) there's no point to just getting something to tide you over. You might as well get good, general-purpose lighting gear that you can use for years.

3. Consider one of the basic lighting kits made by Lowel and other mfrs. One of Lowel's kits, for example, features two of their "Omni" lights and one "Tota" light and includes stands, barndoors (for the Omnis), a few color-correction gels, etc. all packed in a handy case. This would be enough to give you a decent 3-point lighting setup for a small scene.

Good luck!

Dylan,
I have the light kit that Ken has mentioned, about $700. It is a good all around starter kit. Be warned though, the stands included with this kit are flimsey, and shouldn't be used in strong winds, or left near unattended children. Also, the knobs to tighten the lights are kind of weak.

The only other items I added to it, were:
-A heavy duty extension cord w/ extra outlets and surge protecter built in
-Umbrellas to bounce softer light
-A dimmer box

The dimmer box I ended up building, because any commercial unit I found was highly priced.
Keith

I did a search on lights and read until my eyes went blurry. :)
The questions I posted were the ones that I couldn't find answers to.

Lowel does seem to have the best all around basic light kit at a reasonable price. Someone mentionned Smith Victor lights in one post, and from doing a quick search, they seem to be cheap (possibly in construction as well). Much cheaper than Lowels.
Anyone used these before?

Dylan,
Re: lamp wattages, it depends on what you're lighting and how you're using each light (key, fill, background, rim, etc.). There's no "standard" answer. If you go with the Lowel's you will see that each light's permissable lamp size is listed on the light. BE CAREFUL! These lights can be operated from either 12v (battery) or 120v power. The lamp wattages are not the same for both! Don't buy expensive lamps and then blow them out acccidentally. Sounds dumb but it's an easy mistake for a novice to make (speaking as an ex-novice ;-) ).

BTW, re: using a dimmer with tungsten lamps, note that it will change the light's color and may well dramatically reduce the lamp's life. To change brightness you might be better advised to use physical controls (ex: move the lights, use flags, etc.).

In video you don't need alot of light but you do need quality light. I usually recomend that people read the text on a few educational and suppliers sites. They should then formulate an idea of what they want to do and what their budget is.

Good instructional site
http://www.cybercollege.com/tvp027.htm

Arri lighting handbook
http://www.arri.com/infodown/light/broch/li_hand.pdf
While your in the Arri site look at their product.
I absolutely love their fresnells. The 300 watter is just about perfect for my needs

Don't settle for cheap crap, buy one piece at a time if that's all you can afford. Start out with a good sturdy light stand, a lowel open face (tota, Omni(with barn door) or a DP(with barn door) and an umbrella. Buy a 4'X8'sheet of white foamcore (foam cored hardboard) to use as a reflector and build from there.

A low priced lower wattage hairlight or kicker could be a lowell pro (250 watts). they're very small and portable. (with barn doors)

Most of the pros here will tell you to build your kit piecemeal.

I'm particular to softboxes and fresnels. Some people like hot wax and whips. To each his own.


http://www.lowel.com/
B&H are about the best price. the omni and DP may be more versatile but the tota broad light works best with a softbox. the tota also works well with an umbrella. while an umbrellas is hard to control (spillage) it's dirt cheap and gives a soft and decent spread. JMHO

Photoflex are about the best price/quality match for softboxes. A Chimera will cost almost double.People talk about the Riffa being easy
to setup. I can set up a photoflex in about 2 minutes. Most of the time I leave it up. http://www.photoflex.com/photoflex/Default.asp

The manfrotto 052 is an excellant stand and rock solid ( Bogen 3086 and 3086QL (quicklock) only $45 and $47 at B&H.) The stand will hold 11 lbs. The OO5 master stand is good for 20 lbs, it's a few bucks more but twice as sturdy.
http://www.manfrotto.com/


B&H Lighting dept http://www02.bhphotovideo.com/default.sph/FrameWork.class?=ParentActivator__Aproduct_html___CatID=1161___SID=EC0E79D51D0

If you want to go exploring click on any of the sites at
http://www.cinequip.ca/sales.htm

The wattages I use are fairly low. I use 750 watts in my medium softbox (24x36) and have lamped it down to 500 watts. You can get a 650 watt HIR bulb that will give the equivilent of 1000 watts of light. This would be handy in keeping the total wattage down so as not to pop a fuse or breaker. The standard fusing is 15 amps (1800 watts)

Also, realize that the light in a softbox is bounced and baffled. This does reduce the intensity more than somewhat but leaves you with a beautifully flattering and softly forgiving light.

I have a 300 watt Arri fresnell and an Omni at 420 watts. Most of the time I use the softbox, foamcore and the arri. My next buys will be another medium softbox with Tota and a lowel prolight with battery pack (with some sort of mini softbox or diffusion hood)

Keith, which lowel kit do you have exactly? (use there codes
please). I don't know how long you have this kit, but they are
including new stands and some other new stuff with the current
kits. They claim it too be much better.

I have been looking into Lowel kits and I might be getting
one myself. It is very difficult to choose between the different
light types though, primarely because I don't have the "feeling"
of how they will "light" and "handled". I'll make a list of possible
kits I'm consedering and let you guys comment on it.

Thanks for the information, invaluable!

Bryan, you are too much! I should know better than to read these boards before I am fully awke, but it took me a minute to try and figure out how hot wax and whips are used for lighting! Duh!
Rob, I have the Vip Go kit, and I got it about 8 months ago. Any more specifics will have to wait till I get to the office, I just can't remember the model number. It is the same kit you were talking about- two omnis, one tota, gels, etc. And by the way, thanks for the heads up on lowering wattage damaging my lamps! They cost me about $35 each, and I never thought I might be killing them.

Another newbie comments on lighting.
 

After reading most of the materials mentioned in this thread and spending hours with the Arri and Lowel catalogs, here is what I did...

I bought a Lowel Riffa (600 watt) and a Lowel Pro. I had inherited three cheap 600 watt lights (Acme-lite Q-brites -- anybody ever heard of them?) with my used XL-1. I use two of the Q-brites behind umbrellas for background lighting, one of them on a dimmer for backlighting, the Pro for key and the Riffa for fill. I have added a couple of foamcore bounce cards and a Photoflex PhotoDisc to tame the shadows.

I really like the Lowel lights. Arri's are apparently better, but with a price tag to match. My next step if my web video experiment is a success will be some fresnels and some serious overhead grid for my mini-studio.

If you guys ask questions and I don't reply, it's because I am headed out of town for a couple of weeks with no internet access, not because I am ignoring you.

See you all (and this interesting thread) 07/08/02.

Don't forget ebay. We have bought some Arri Fresnels on ebay for significantly less than discounted new prices.

Rob- While I was at the office today, I dug out the info on my Lowel kit. It is the Vip 89 kit, but I only remember it being called the Vip Go kit.
Keith

If you are looking for a good alternative to the high prices of the Lowel lights take a look at Photoflex ( http://www.photoflex.com/photoflex/index.html ) they have a series of products called Starlites that come in a series of kits. The lights are expandable by adding more stars to the basic light as your budget and needs expand. I have been expermenting with one for several months now and find it a very usefull accessory to my standard Lowel kit. Very light weight, very sturdy and very expandable. It's worth a look for anyone considering a light kit. Oh, cost is also reasonable. I paid $279 for a kit which includes a 500 watt lamp, litedome (softbox), connector, stand and an instructional CD.

Jeff

before you BUY i suggest you use different lights. try to get out on a shoot to see what is being used.

if you ask 10 DP's to light a room using 4 lights ( any 4 manufacture/models they want) - you will find 30 different model of lights waiting to be used ... they all prefer this over that ..

use/ rent/ borrow / watch before you buy a light you won't like 2 months from now ..

i know many that use lowels but i just don't like the light quaility from em.

Donatello,
I agree with you that you, should try before you buy. I have the Lowels, and like the light. But, they are rather flimsy in construction. However, I am in such a backwoods area, nobody has ever even seen an XL1s. What are the chances of finding video lights around here to try or examine? None.

This is why this forum is such a blessing. If I had found it BEFORE I bought my equipment, I might have found reasons to buy something else. Live and learn.
Keith

Capt,
You're right. -Very- few amatuers have any reasonable chance to try equipment before buying it. Even in a large city such as Chicago there are very few places to even -see- professional or semi-professional equipment. If you live in a more rural area you're really out of luck. Most people's only chance is to either know someone who owns the equipment or to take your best shot purchasing the equipment with a guarantee that you can return it if necessary. Your remark, "This is why this forum is such a blessing." certainly rings true with anyone who has spent a meaningful amount of time here. The "blessing" is in our 1,300+ members' collective knowledgeability and helpfulness, certainly in contrast to so many other sites that seem to attract crackpots and idle minds.

Re: Lowel lighting gear, I'm not sure that "flimsy" is the most accurate adjective. Most of their equipment is designed to be light and highly portable. Much of it, in fact, is engineered to fit into self-contained cases. They offer several grades of stands but normally send the lighter grades with kits. I've had one occasion to send an Omni back to them for repair, which they did with diligence and uncommon care and courtesy. So, while there is certainly heavier-duty lighting gear available, the Lowel line seems designed to provide good performance and versatility for a price below that of a feature film or tv production budget.

"If you are looking for a good alternative to the high prices of the Lowel lights take a look at Photoflex ( photoflex.com/photoflex/index.html ) they have a series of products called Starlites that come in a series of kits."

The starlites are more pricey than the lowel Tota and tougher to pack. The lamps are very pricey and are available in 500 and 1000 watts (there is a 250 and 150 watter that requires an adapter). They are also difficult to find.

To me the ideal setup is a medium softbox (silverdome 24x36) with a speedring and a Lowel Tota. The Tota is cheaper and folds away quickly and compactly. The reflectors fold over the lamp and protect the bulb. The Tota lamps are easy to find and inexpensive. In a pinch they can be lamped using a "worklight" bulb. The Tota sit right at the back of the softbox and reflects it light perfectly into the softbox reflector.

The kit you speak of is a "special' and very limited in scope. It's an extra small(12x16) siverdome with a very poor stand. The kit doesn't include a metal rotating speed ring, it includes intead a plastic mount. The Standard extra small kit(12x16) is $350, the (16x22)small $429 and the medium (24x32)$520 (from B&H)The standards include a heavy metal speed ring that will rotate. It is also very robust. The stands are not the best.

Priced separately the Photoflex medium silverdome NXT, with an accessory kit (louvers, circle and strip masks), a tota, lamp, speed ring and a very robust bogen/manfotto light stand are about $70 cheaper than the Photoflex kit.

"But, they are rather flimsy in construction."

Lowel lights can be serviced easily, parts for every fixture are available and the lights do stand up. most rental depts use Lowel. Lowell lights have been designed on the "KISS" principle. Keep it simple.

Arri can't be beat for quality and they are pricey. The fresnell are actually more reasonable than some of the other brands. I find the Arri 300 watt fresnel to have a very pleasing quality.

I guess I try and use the best for the best price.

Ken,
Since I spent the largest portion of my money on the XL1s, GL1, a new editing machine,and the Korg D12, I didn't have alot left over. So I got one of the starter lighting kits. I'm not saying that all that Lowel makes is crap, but I still think that my kit is flimsy.

Yes, the lights do stand, but it wouldn't take much for them to tip. A major accident waiting to happen. The knobs used to tighten the lamps in position are small, and take a strong effort to support an umbrella. Sometimes they don't want to work. The barn doors are also a bit flimsy, but workable.

Am I whining? No. I spent what I could, and got a starter kit that does work. Just not as well as I had hoped. Would I do it again? No. I would do a little more research, and get a more rugged set.

Just trying to help others that are starting out like I am, and sharing my mistakes and experiences.
Keith

I keep wondering whether their (Lowel's) new and improved
stands are filmsy too. Guess no-one got those new ones yet.
If you do, please chime in with your findings. Thanks.

my experience with most lighting kits is that they are usually priced so that you pay for the heads, case and accessories. As for the stands, they end up being (close to) free. It may be worthwhile to get the kit, then you have extra stands to hold reflectors, gobo's etc. Usually these "kit" stands are useless for holding up a light above 6 feet.

I never put a light on anything less than a 13ft heavy duty manfrotto (available as bogen, calumet and other nameplates) they are usually available at b&h or calumet for about $100.

As for the lowels..I really like the DP lights..its a nice focusable spot. I own a two of them as well as a tota. Next year, you could add a couple of fresnel 1k's and you'll have a great kit.

Bryan

The "special kit" from Photoflex was $279 and does have a metal speed ring not plastic. The stand is no better or worse than the Lowel stands I have nor are they any more difficult to pack. The cost of the 500 watt lamp is $35 verses $27 for the lowel light. The rated life of the lamp is 300 hours, far greater than the lamps needed for my Lowel kits. Starlights also run cooler, I don't need a leather glove to make adjustments. The Starlight is more versatile by being able to group them in clusters for more wattage for the larger light boxes. The light box that comes in the kit is 12 x 16. It is perfect for the table top work I do for a major soap manufacture. I wouldn't replace my Lowel lights with the Starlights. However, for someone starting out they offer a great value and are worth a look.

Jeff

From B&H
500 watt lamp for Tota 3200K FCZ 120 Volts/500 Watts (R7s Base) Lamp is 14.95 and rated at 2600 hours

Lamp (500w/120v) for Starlite 3200 is 42.50 and rated for 300 hours

The starlight is $140 vs the Tota at $110

The "Digital kit" is a great deal for table top but not much else, that's just my opinion. the lightstands in all of the kits, Lowel included aren't the best . The stand in the digital Kit doesn't even have a photoflex model #, it's a special. The speedring is not the heavy duty rotating ring available in the standard kit. Believe me I looked at the kits and bought piecemeal. My manfrotto master stand will hold over 20lbs.

OK, I think I'm going to look for a set of used Lowels on Ebay. They may or may not be flimsy, I'll let you guys decide that. :) However, I think they will suit my immediate needs. Of course, I'll be keeping my eyes open for a cheap/used set of Arris.

Is there anything I should know about buying used lights, especially off Ebay? Besides the cost of buying new bulbs anyway.

Thanks

Lowels or Arri can be fully serviced. Parts for either are always available. Go with your gut and enjoy!

I've been going over and over the lowel catelog yesterday
when I was ill and in bed. I must say that these things are
a tad expensive. A couple of sets even allow me to buy a brand
new XL1S! Some sets I have in mind nearly come at half of
my XL1S costs.... I have narrowed my list down to this:

ViP GO Kit 91
ViP GO Kit 97
ViP GO Kit 98
Easy V Kit
Elemental Kit
Basically 3 Kit

I can not use any pro lights since they are 120V only and
I'm in a 230/240V country. DP's are too expensive so I
probably need to go with V-lights, Tota's or Omni's.

Can someone explain to me what the difference is between
the V-light and the Tota? They look pretty similiair.

Any thoughts on those kits I have on my list at the moment?

The V light is smaller and packs smaller than the Tota. It is also not as robust.

The V light takes a 500 watt lamp. the Tota will accept 300 to 800 watts including the more efficient HIR (watt miser)

The V light uses a clear glass safety cover whereas the Tota uses a screen. the screem amounts to a 30% loss of available light.

The Tota lamps are easier to get and can be lamped with work light or consumer grade lamps in an emergency.

The V lamp has considerably shorter life. I think the cost is $15 (Tota) vs $18 (V)

bump!

On an interesting note, I was in a large camera shop today, and the guy there said I would be better off NOT buying a Lowel kit, and rather buy each item seperately, as they rate their case and stands very expensively.

Prices he gave me for a 2 Tota light kit: $1300cdn

Buying everything seperatly, no case, and different stands: $850cdn

That's quite a difference.

Not only is it cheaper but you get what you want and the stands will be a lot sturdier. Trouble is there's not alot of reasonable places to buy Lowel in Canada.

Gear like Arri and manfrotto can actually be quite a bit cheaper here in can. The stuff is landed right from germany and Italy and doesn't get that good old US markup.

Cinequip out of Toronto are very fair in their pricing.

I noticed that too, that Lowel weren't much cheaper than equivalent Arri lights. I think an Arri 650 was around $575cdn. That's without lamp, stand, or anything of course.

Boy is stuff expensive. I mean it's a light for cryin' out loud.
Sheesh. Oh well, no point P&M'ing about it. :)

Try Cinequip at www.cinequip.ca. That price for an Arri 650 sounds a bit high. Who are you dealing with in Vancouver?

They aren't "just a light" they are a tools and good tools cost.

I know it's not "just a light". :) Just getting frustrated because I can't get everything into my start-up budget that I want and still have enough left over to shoot my first video.

But it's not important how much things cost. It's how much money they make you that counts.

Those prices were from Leo's Camera. I'm not dealing with them per se, just checking out gear there. I didn't think the Arri prices were competitive, just that they were less than $100 more than the comparable Lowel lights. www.leoscamera.com
I'll check out Cinequip.
Thanks!

I know your pain Dylan. Everything I had budgeted ran a bit more than the original price. I'm still getting my gear together.
Keith

Dylan,
I don't know if these remarks will be welcome but after following your plight I feel compelled to make them anyway.

Don't lose perspective on your objectives. It's a very easy thing to do while chasing gear. Remember photons are not patented. To a very great degree, it -IS- "...just a light". Nobody will give a diggedy damn whether you used Arri's, Lowel's, or Home Depot worklights. As long as you are able to control the general behaviour of those photons you're prepared to shoot. The incremental added values of one brand of light over another, if any, will largely be lost on your viewers. In some cases, some brands of equipment are priced-up more for their ruggedness or for the average budgets of the products' target market.

Which brings me to my main point. The particular tools you use on your project are far less important than the value of your imagination and your ability to use your tools to create that vision for others. Many people, especially young people, get caught-up in the consumerism of videography and become spec-paralyzed when selecting equipment. They then use their budget as an excuse for why they produced disappointing results. As an ex-boss once said to me (when I was young, in fact), "Don't let the best get the better of the good.".

One last thought, fwiw. Don't lose perspective on life, either. That is, before spending every penny on getting the top-of-the-line equipment be realistic about how long, and how often, you'll -really- be using it. Are you really going to be shooting many videos in, say, 10-15yrs? If you get hold of a commercial project that has a commercial-sized budget ($100K+) are you likely to be using any of this equipment? Probably not. Keep in mind that the residual value of most of this gear is nearly nil or, at best, a miserable financial proposition.

So, while I suggest that you get good, reliable gear I think it's much more important to keep perspective on your project and on life.

Good luck on your projects, Dylan.

Ken, you make an excellent point and I don't think anyone could disagree with it. It's very easy to get lost amongst the tools of the trade.

So far I've been way underbudget on everything. I try to buy mint condition used equiptment whenever I can, which I've had a lot of luck with so far. I figure at worst, I can sell it all in a month for pretty much exactly what I paid for it.

A set of Arri lights were going to be my extravagence. I had planned on going cheap, and then buying better lights later, but I got to thinking I might just buy better ones now. There is a lot to be said for looking 'professional' when it comes to any business. On the other hand, it's what shows up on tape that counts.


Oh, BTW, in 10-15 years, I hope to be shooting on 35mm film. If it still exists. :)

Ken,

Excellent common sense points. It's nice to hear a voice of reason amidst obsession with minute technical details. Trust your eyes and ears, that's what we teach.

We use a TO-98 Lowel kit- that's the one with 2 Omnis and 1 Tota- in our "Secrets of Shooting Great DV" touring workshop.

http://www.dvcreators.net/shootgreatdv

We usually use the Tota for a key light- with an umbrella - or a soft box to reduce spill. We use a piece of artboard or foamcore for fill, and a low wattage Omni for a backlight. The other higher wattage Omni we use to cast a pattern of light and shadow over the background in many cases.

This kit comes with stands, cords, gel frames and barn doors (for the Omnis).

It is a nice kit for the $$$ in my opinion.

We've also used a kit with a China ball on a boom mic stand for the key, and worklights for backlight and background lights.

Since this thread has made it's way back to the front I'll let you know how my light plight worked out.

I ended up buying three Lowel Fren-L 650's. I opted for the heavier Manfrotto 004 stands as well and a nice Manfrotto bag for them. I'm still trying to find a reasonably priced case that will hold all three frenels.

I'm going to pick up some umbrellas for them, but I also plan on building two compact flourescent light banks for large soft lighting. I think I'm also going to get two DP lights for smaller use lighting.

Regarding those floursecents, don't they wreak havoc with lighting because they don't give an even colour temperature? (They spiike in the green range so I've read) Can someone explain to me how folouro's are ok?

Cheers
Aaron

Good luck with your lights!

Most flourescents are not 3200k but you can buy bulbs that are. Compact flourescents are more stable (less flicker) and longer lasting than regular flourescents and put out much more light per watt.

Check out Kino-Flo's Diva Lights. They are compact flourescent lights for video/film use, but they run about $1400us for a 220 watt fixture. I'm planning on building my own variation of these.