Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

I thought that was pretty obvious Ryan - if you are using commercial tracks as guides they won't be remotely the right lengths or have pick up points in the right places unless you edit them. It does sound like you make the music so difficult for the composer working like this. I would hate to be micromanaged like this and probably walk.

The more rules you set, the more 'suggestions' you impose and the more hand behind the back you make it, the creativity drops lower and lower.

You set a style, you perhaps even do it negatively - so anything you like but NOT strings. This focuses the composer. Then you let them get on with it. They could think the harmonica is far too cliche set. Don;t get involved with musical detail. You don't have the background for it.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Oh okay, are you saying I should tell a composer anything I like but not strings when you say that, or what do you mean by that?

As for a harmonica sounding cliche, I would be surprised if a composer thought that since you hardly hear it anymore in movies it seems.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Composers can have an opinion, it's how it gets used can be a cliche. Just because it's not currently used doesn't mean that the way you're using it isn't cliched because of its past use in a particular type of western scene.

Here's a use of the harmonica that creates for emotional and dramatic effect because of these past.references.


However, I suspect you're not working at that level.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Oh okay. I wanted to use it as more of a suspense sound, but it's effective there as well.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

It will only work if it's appropriate within the scene otherwise it could be distracting.

This is the only time I've heard the harmonica being used for suspense;

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Okay thanks, that's pretty much what I was thinking.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Out of curiosity, since we are on the subject, would a panflute work as music during the more emotional moments? The temp track I was thinking of is at 35:58 into the this movie:


But would a pan flute sound odd, or could it work, since that movie made it work?

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Do you have any emotional sense?

You're asking questions that any audience member or filmmaker with any musical feelings and judgment would have discovered over the years. If you can't select a piece of music as a temp track without asking on a forum for an opinion, you should become a film producer, rather than a director or an editor.

We don't know anything about the context or content of the scene you're proposing to use this piece of music, so how can we pass comment.

If it feels right to you when you play it with the scene, it usually is. However, in your case, from the nature of the questions that keep asking, I don't know if that works.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

To be honest, when you get something that you had to work really hard at, and in my case, take exams,meeting trivialised in this way, it makes me pretty grumpy. I can forgive the endless conversations about video and audio, because any competent person can become a camera op or sound op, but wanting to have artistic skills when they are clearly totally absent and assuming that because you have the budget and are in charge qualifies your judgement as the best one, is so wrong! One current project I am really struggling with because I am producing music for two people streets ahead of me in the musical world to perform. This is considerable pressure, even though they're both lovely and forgiving people. However, I want to give them something worthy, and it's hard.

Music for moving image is not, and never has been, a case of picking music you like. It's about picking what is appropriate based on your musical knowledge. The idea of tying a composer's hands behind their back because somebody musically inept has the money is quite demeaning to a musician. It's similar to when actors get badly directed, when they know wha they're asked to do is terrible.

Are you aware the pan flute is one of the classic cliche instruments, and is like marmite/Donald trump/American football. You either love it or hate it, nothing in between.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Why doesn’t he cut out the middle man? Take the soundtracks from the movies he likes. The temp track is the final track! With the money he saved from not hiring a composer, he could get a local band to do a cover. Of course probably have to buy them a duduk...

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Oh okay, I thought that a bad would cost more than a composer who could do it all virtually.

I didn't think the pan flute was cliche as I hardly ever hear it in movies.

As for trying to be creative and artistic,
I guess I just got to do the best I can...

I don't mean for my judgment to be the best, I am just trying to establish what is best, and why, which I guess what I asked.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

The musical world is larger than movies, an instrument's place is larger than what you hear in film soundtracks. It brings all that "baggage" when you use it in a movie.

Being creative involves doing something that you haven't done before and possibly hasn't been done in a particular way by anybody else. Often it's someone's personal experiences that they've put into a production that resonates with the subject matter and so the audience.

No one here can advise on what is best for your film because we know nothing about it. The music is just one element that needs to work within the whole.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

The snag is you wouldn't understand the 'why' - we've been trying to explain this for a very long time. You don't understand and want to very badly, but repeatedly demonstrate you don't have the artistic side at all. Your version of art is a collection of examples you have used to create rules that are faulty, and the need to cling to rules means you lose sight of what is creatively best. Film makers who are successful instinctively know these things. Many are totally non-technical and they surround themselves with technical folk who bring their vision to life. your solution to everything is to try to take control and basically interfere with everyone's role. You have shown that your ability in virtually every department as a technical operator is flawed. you've also demonstrated your creative roles - producer, director, DoP etc also have issues because you never, ever make decision on the spot. You post every decision on the net, and wait for people to make decisions for you, but then reject the good suggestions and use the one or two that corroborate your poorer one.

One day, a lightbulb moment will happen and you will make a decision for yourself, and it will be a great one and you will be so pleased you will burst.

Ask yourself a question. Why do you get creatives involved with your projects if you constantly tie their hands behind their backs and force them to do what you think is best?

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Oh okay, I didn't think I was tying anyones hands though. I don't for example, the DP or actors or sound recordist found their hands tied. What did I do to tie their hands in the past?

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

You're discussing the composer here, not DPs or actors. Although, the same issue of discussing things comes up regarding the DP in other threads.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Oh okay, well I don't mean to be too controlling, I am just trying to acquire what I feel is best, using my own judgment, but I do welcome input from people as well. I just like having preliminaries ready to go, such as preliminary temp music ideas for the composer.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Unfortunately, you're not totally using your own judgment. The temp tracks will be finailsed during the editing, when you can judge if they're working,

With one of my shorts. we used as temp tracks the music I listened to while writing the script. Interestingly, in one piece, it wasn't just the instrument or the piece of music, it was how it was being played that was important. One of the funders asked for me to use the composer playing the same piece of music for the opening, instead of the music composed for the film. We agreed that the final selection would be made in the mixing suite.

The composer cleverly matched the emotions of the way the temp was being played in his composition and kept his playing of his version of the temp more neutral . We asked the dubbing mixer which he preferred and the answer was the composer's music. So the film had his music throughout.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Oh okay. Well I was advised to bring a composer on early on, but if I do, won't they be making decisions before the editing process then?

Also, I see what you mean about an instrument vs. the way it's being played I think. It's just that it's hard to find temp tracks that are exactly what I want so I will have to tell the composer, I like the rythym, it's just perhaps could use a different instrument for part of it, and I will suggest the instrument, but maybe the composer would come up with something better.

For example, one of my temp tracks I like the beat off, but the main instrument is a saxophone, and a sax sounds too sexual or too erotic, probably because it's a cliched instrument for being used for scenes like that in movies.

But I like the beat. This is why I thought, I want a similar beat but with the sax replaced with something else, if that is a sensible reason to replace it, as one example.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

If you look hard enough you can always find suitable music.

Composer are commonly brought on late in the day, if they're your friend you can have chats with them.

There are cases where the composer is brought in before shooting starts, but unless it's a musical that not the usual way of working. Sergio Leone did it with Ennio Morricone, but I gather they went to school together, so there's ab old relationship.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Sax can sound sexual or erotic, or it can sound haunting or sad. It can also sound totally rhythmic. It's capable of being played in hundreds of ways. You're thinking cliche, hence why you have a pre-formed opinion of these things.

You are also getting very confused with temporary tracks - they are just unlinked mood music - better than silence and scene setting. They have little to do with the finished music, and it's rare they actually fit in a way that lets them be used.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

For someone who has no money and is struggling with the basics, why on earth is he concerned with hiring a composer? It's all ridiculous but to be expected.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

I can hire a composer. If temp tracks are not used for the composer to get ideas from, then what do you call the tracks you give them to get ideas from, or is there a term for that?

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

If there are no temp music tracks in the edit, you can only offer separate music recordings that can act as a guide for the type of music you're thinking of, These recordings can act as reference music for the composer.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Oh okay, well so far I have just been giving the composer examples, without actually editing them into the scenes. I could edit them into the scenes exactly, but if I recut the music pieces, then parts of them become butchered for the composer to use as examples, but as long as the composer still gets the idea.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

No you can't! You cannot just plonk tracks into your movie and chop them up. It doesn't work. Ryan clearly you simply do not remotely understand music. Give your composer a steer. Tell them something needs to happen at X point, tell them you want a sunconsious theme for a character, or location, tell them a mood needs to change and then let the musician do musical stuff.

You're hopelessly confused about these jobs. you don't seem to realise the talented people will simply refuse to work with you if you keep this up. You are starting to sound like one of those directors who nobody wishes to be involved with.

Are people often unavailable when you ask them, and maybe this also explains why your actors keep becoming unavailable.

If you like your composers work, let him do it and stop trying to micromanage with no understanding of what they do.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Often temp tracks are there to give the editor something to edit against or for the producers and other people who are viewing the film before the final sound track music is in place, rather than the composer.

A competent composer is quite capable of picking up the rhythm of a scene, they are also inventive in creating any leitmotifs required for characters etc. They may also be able to add some of the emotion that the poor acting doesn't emote

You don't need to chop up the music. I made an 8mm film when I was 16 and when I projected it I had an LP that I played with it. The music matched the action so well that it began to Mickey Mouse in places and it worked all the way through the film. That was rather fortunate, but if you select appropriate music it's surprising how well it will work.

Is this all for your feature film project or a short film?

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

It would be both for the feature and the short I am planning, if that is what you are asking.

The only reason I suggested editing the music, is because it was suggested on here before, that I edit the music to the scene. But wouldn't that result in the music being chopped up? I was just taken the suggestion on here before, but was asking about if it would come off as chopped up if I edited the music down.

But I don't need to give the composer temp tracks in the scene in then, and should I just show him examples of what I would like seperately then, if that's better?

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

If you select the right piece of music and edit correctly, you shouldn't notice the changes. It's something that has been done for years on films, even those with a sound track composed for it. That's because things change.

There are techniques used during the days of editing on magnetic sound film. It was called tracking and was also done with library music, I expect it still goes on. except it's much easier doing it now on a DAW.. It's a skilled job.

You could do timing sheets, which have the timings of all the action and important dialogue down to a fraction of a second. This would assist the composer regarding key points.

Discuss with your composer what works for them,

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Well the composer is allowing me to pick a lot of instruments so far, or at least asked which ones I would like so this has me thinking... Should I pick based on what instruments sound the best, or should I go with what I think will work within the universe of the movie, regardless, of how I feel about the sound? Or should it be both, and has to work within the universe of the movie, of course, but has to sound good to you as well...

For example in the movie Goldfinger, when Bond arrives on Goldfinger's Kentucky farm, they play a banjo. Now did the filmmakers like that instrument, or did they just say to themselves, well... Bond is in Kentucky now, so I guess that means we should use a banjo, even though we don't like it...

Or likewise, even though I thought about how I wanted the harmonica, I only wanted it to create a western feel. But I am not really a huge fan of it, and there is probably something that sounds better out there. So do I go by sound, or feeling I am trying to create, such as a Western feeling?

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

You work with the strangest people. Camera ops who ask you what framing you want, sound ops who want you to pick their equipment, lighting people who seem to be clueless as to how to light a scene, and now you have a composer who asks a no musical person to pick their instrumentation. Is Saskatoon inhabited entirely by people who are clueless?

You are using your movie cliche list again? If it was set in Australia it would be a digeredoo, or a sitar in India, or a duduk in Africa, a harmonica in cowboy country, bodrhan is ireland, bagpipes in Scotland, pan flutes in South America and strange pentatonic in scales in Asia. Busy music for cities, wild sweeping strings for deserts. College course first week caricature studies.

You are desperate to be involved in every part of the movie, even when you have no talent in that area? The next topic will be about your graphic designer who is creating the titles. What fonts should you let him use?

Seriously though Ryan, if you don't KNOW, and have to ask on a forum, why are you not asking the person skilled in the role HIS advice. If I got told to use certain instrumentation because that person had no idea and asked on a forum, I'd walk. Seriously, these people cannot be real if they let you, clearly a novice, set the rules they as a professional have to follow. I work with many musicians better than me, and I always defer to their judgement when I know it's better. I just cannot imagine musicians working this way.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Regarding Goldfinger, I suspect the banjo was John Barry's decision, rather than Guy Hamilton's. He has already used music to set up a location in the Miami sequence the film. He had used a similar technique to set up location in "From Russia With Love" and in "Zulu".

There are a number of instruments that could give a western feeling, so the choice isn't limited to the harmonica.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

That's true, the choice is not limited to harmonica, but I guess my feelings are just telling me harmonica will sell it more than other instruments. However, if I am going by sounds I like, my brain tells me pan flute instead, because it sounds better. So do I make the decision based on what sounds I like, or what trying to create a genre feeling, regardless of sound, in this case western?

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Use what serves the story, not which instrument you like better.

Again, you're following rules as to what fits in a particular genre. This tends to be more fashions at a particular time. You could put someone singing a song in, since that was the fashion during the 1950s and 60s in westerns, .

This is one of the best songs with Tex Ritter, there are some awful ones in westerns.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Oh okay. How do you know what instrument would fit though? For example, I watched the movie The Killer (1989) recently, and noticed they have a pan flute on the soundtrack a lot. I didn't think a pan flute would fit an action crime thriller set in modern times, but they go for it.

So how do you know what fits, especially when other filmmakers go for something more unique and original like that, that I have not heard in that genre, in any other movies?

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

If you can't tell when you hear it, you're in the wrong business. Learning that is part of the 10,000 hours and even then you could still be wrong.

It must fit emotionally with the character and the story. Here's the pan pipes with other instruments.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

What a coincidence I just thought of Once Upon A Time in America, and was going to mention it. Well I guess I can ask the composer to use whatever instrument sounds good then, as long as it fits... Some instruments are hard to get good samples for, so maybe it would be worth it find someone who can play it, or maybe that would cost too much more, but I can see...

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Ir's not about what sounds good, but is it appropriate? They are Jewish gangsters in Once Upon a Time in America, so that adds an immigrate aspect to the story.

An instrument may sound good, however, if it doesn't add anything or detracts from the culture, the characters or the action you need to question why it's there.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

I just don't get why you want to strangle the composer with a demand for a certain instrument when this might stifle a perfectly wonderful idea. You're too young to remember Gheorghe Zamfir - he did for pan pipes what your president is doing for mask manufacturers - confusing everyone.

Have a listen to Morricone's Once upon a time in the West - absolutely haunting and a female voice with no words but incredible 'aaaahing'. Contrast this with the signature theme/song from Blazing Saddles, which used every musical cliche possible - the instrumentation and even the accent of the voice - a caricature of 60s era westerns.

At the end of one of the Austin Powers movies, there was a piece of music recorded by Alan Parsons - for copyright reasons I had to re-record this for a project, but it's quite full of more subtle music 'clues' - it's called the time machine but is kind of a piece of music that's quite predictable.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

oh okay. I don't want to stifle the music of course I just thought that certain instruments would help bring out the feeling better what I was wanting the composer to do.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

They will. The problem is you are not a musician.