Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Yep that is true, I was just trying to get the sound I was looking for based on the temp tracks I like.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Talk to the composer about this.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Ryan - if you were colour blind, would there be any point in selecting the colours for the costumes or set? You'd let somebody who you trusted look after them wouldn't you?

You insist on using industry titles for people's roles, but don't let them do that role - you dilute it by taking back partial control, and two people can never agree and really be happy. If you cannot help interfering in every decision, you will never grow.Would you ask the composer about camera angles, and would you ask the actors what aspect ratio would be best? Of course not - but you cannot resist it - you want control of every area and do not trust anyone. You want to be director but lack the talent, so you want a good director to allow you to co-direct, which we've told you many times never works. You are a medical student who wants his first operation to be heart surgery, not removing an ingrowing toe-nail.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Oh okay, I can let the composer do his job. I just want the music to sound like how I want it to sound as well, but don't most directors want the music to sound like how they want, or do they give the composer complete free reign and however it sounds, is however it sounds?

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Ask yourself a question.

Will your likes and dislikes be appreciated by the viewing public? If you like Greek Bouzouki music will this be appreciated by others?

Most Directors who understand music and how it works would have a composer who shared the same ideas. You don't seem to be on the same planet sometimes? I suppose because you don't even trust yourself to make decisions, your abilities in this area are somewhat compromised?

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Most feature film directors have discussions with the composer and leave them to it, they don't sit over their shoulder all the time as they compose. Surprise and accidents are all part of the creative process. However, it doesn't always work out, the original music for "Chinatown" was dropped and Jerry Goldsmith was brought in for new score.

The "Battle of Britain" film had a complex tale, with William Walton doing the score, that was rejected by the guys in charge of United Artists (not the director), John Barry was approached, but refused. The Ron Goodwin accepted the gig. although one of the producers was unhappy about the choice. In the released film Walton's music also gets used and if you buy a DVD in the UK you've a choice of musical score.

The music is something that does make directors nervous because they don't have control over it. Talk with your composer and make your suggestions, but don't micro manage because you'll stand a good chance of getting a poor soundtrack.

If you wish to have precise control use pre-recorded music, that won't change.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Oh yeah, I wasn't going to watch over them as they work. I just wanted to give them samples, and ask them ot use certain instruments in the samples, unless they had better ideas perhaps. I didn't think that was micromanaging though.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Engage an interior designer and then insist they use your colours, that they know are not going to work?

What we are saying Ryan is that you could say I would like to feature digeredoo, because I think it goes really well with this scene, and you supply them the rough cut and they think, it's a bit weird, the scene is about somebody abandoned in a deserted nuclear power station, but it fits so they write a great piece for the scene. Or, you have a scene where there is a great vista like scene featuring a lake, birds and the actor alone in a boat, but tell them you'd like to feature a bassoon. Not a horrible instrument, but honky and nasal. The composer could feature it but it removes so much opportunity.

If you think your ideas are guidelines, that the composer is free to disagree with and offer you alternatives that brilliant, but you before were telling them to use certain instruments, which might not be appropriate or easy to listen to. Do you think your musical skills are up to making good decisions, or are you on page 89 of your rule book. Movie=western. Western=harmonica or sensual/sexy=saxophone. Shower scene =violins.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Oh well, I was just going by what I thought sounded good for emotional purposes. The temp track I had in mind has a duduk in it for example, and I like the sound which is part of the reason why I think the temp track is effecetive. Or one of the reasons why I like another temp track is because a harmonica is in it, which I thought was efffective.

I didn't think the duduk and harmonica were not easy to listen to. I was just going by what I thought would sound best. But I was going by what inspired me in movies before. Unless going by inspiration from other movies is not good?

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

You're not good with inspiration, you seem to want to copy. Taking little bits from movies and using them as templates. You have, in these topics, come up with so many examples from movies that I've never seen, and often never heard of, and then used these as examples. I've no idea how somebody of your age has seen and remembered so many movies! You've also got a movie history going back years before you were born. A massive collection of hundreds of styles and genres. You are having trouble assembling them into a cohesive movie. You pick a camera move from one, lighting from others and music from others and expect it to suddenly congeal into a nice to experience movie. It doesn't work like this.

Go to YouTube and look up guy michelmore a musician who composes, I think I've mentioned him before, and watch him compose. See how he writes music, and how he chooses sounds. Watch how he builds the content to match the brief. Watch him decide no sound fits so he creates one from a strange noise. See how he builds tension and create mood.

You don't understand how the process works, so your opinions on emotion are built on very shaky foundations, which cannot sometimes support your needs. Rule books built on cliches just don't work!

I suppose I too have rules, but mine are divided into so many degrees that change by circumstance, I just think they're not actually rules at all, just suggestions for direction.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Oh okay, but is using a combination of what I think is the best inspiration from different movies wrong? Also, if I use inspiration from movies, that you have never heard of, is that a bad thing? Or what movies are we talking about here, that you haven't seen?

Plus is using template music from other scores, bad? I thoiught it would help give the composer an idea, unless we should come up with original music, with no templates to get any ideas from?

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

The thing is that everything you do seem to have bits of movies as a template..

Sure people use them as a short hand as a starting point for some shots or idea, there's nothing new in that, painters have done it for hundreds of years. The reclining nude woman (Venus) has been much used, although, I suspect, there are only a handful of pictures which have made full use of it, so that the painting does more than titillate

The issue here is that you seem to be so locked into the reference and then asking if it's OK. It works in the context of the original film and possibly it will work in your film, but we don't know if you've got the resources to do it or much about your film and how it fits in..

Almost, certainly it will take longer than your 1 page every 30 minutes work rate. I was watching a documentary interviewing directors from the studio days in Hollywood and they were doing 2 pages a day.

If you're using a composer, why are you expecting them not to come up with something original? You can use a musical reference, but that's the kicking off point. You appear to be getting into the trap of falling in love with the temp tracks. There are a number of films which ended up with the temp tracks in the soundtrack, the best known being 2001.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

I want to say thank you to Ryan - I needed a piece of music for a production I'm putting together and suddenly realised that Once Upon A Time In America will fit perfectly - with the damn pan pipe. Had it not been for this topic, I'd have never made the link. I've got to get rid of the panpipe of course and replace it with something else - but some other kind of woodwind will be better!

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Oh okay, well if I were to do 2 pages a day it would be like a 50 day shoot for a feature for example. I talked to the professor from my film school and he says on my budget I should be aiming for 10 pages a day, unless he is incorrect on that?

I see what you mean about making original music and not wanting to rip off the track. But I don't want the composer to do something so different that it's not at all what I want either though of course.

Here is one of the template tracks I have in mind for example:


One of the instruments is a flute, which makes that unique sound. So I do want a similar sound effect, but it doesn't have to be the same type of flute. Just some kind of flute, which would produce something similar but perhaps much more different or more original as well.

But is telling the composer I want a somewhat similar type track, with a flute that can make that kind of sound, micromanaging?

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Some how you don't seem to think logically, I was giving an example of the shooting rate on a Hollywood feature film. that doesn't mean that you need to use that, although on a complex day on a key scene you may need to. After all, Hitchcock spent a week of a 4 week shoot filming the shower scene.

How correct your professor is depends on how well you manage to talk your cast and crew into working on a longer schedule. I wouldn't use it as an absolute figure,,getting that number of pages involves 12 to 14 hour days. You attempting it by shooting 10 pages in 5 hours will mean that you'll always be at the same level and you won't progress.

Regarding music "The Incredibles" director wanted the brass sound associated with John Barry and the Bond films. They used music from "On Her Majesties Secret Service" in the trailer.


However Barry turned it down, so the director selected Michael Giacchino, who.knowing what he wanted went for a similar brass sound. He even recorded it using analogue recorders to get the same feel,


Ryan, I don't know why you keep going around in circles, this is a simple conversation with your composer. It shouldn't involve needless pages in a forum.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Yes, you are right, sorry, I will ask the composer.

Well as for how long it would take a two shoot for a day, for example, one scene I have is four pages about. I was thinking I could shoot it in two shots. So if I have two cameras, and do 10 takes, that may add up to only an hour of actual time the cameras are rolling. So that scene would probably save time for example then, if I do two cameras and only two shots, but should the shoot be longer?

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Work out the maths for yourself.

This is all how long is a piece of string? Every scene is different, so no one can give you answer without knowing the content of the scenes.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Yeah, I am just worried if I only do two shots only, will that come off as lazy to viewers. Or maybe they will not notice as long as it's good.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Given that some films have scenes that only have a single shot, I don't see your logic.

Shoot scenes the way that they need to be filmed in order to tell the story in the best manner. This could be in a single shot or fifty shots, the only person who knows is the director, since they're the one telling it.

You're asking questions only the director can answer, because no one here knows anything about your film or the content of the scenes..

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Do you really think the public actually notice how many shots you use per scene? They notice the story, and only consider the mechanics when the story is rubbish and their minds wander from the subject matter.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Oh okay, well why do other directors bother to get so many more shots for a simple dialogue scene, if all you need is 1 or 2? Is it worth spending the extra money and time then, or why do producers let them get so many extra shots throughout a movie, if it's not necessary?

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

The number of shots depend on the style and nature of the film, together with dramatic content of the scene. Some will work as a single sweeping shot, while other are more about jagged exchanges.

Producers like more shots because it gives them more control during the edit. Remember, very few directors will get the final cut. That's why some extremely well known directors working in the Hollywood studio system shot only what they needed. It meant the studio couldn't interfere by changing things in the editing room.

Hitchcock did it by holding a script up in front of the lens, when he wanted to cut.. .

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Oh okay, I just thought producers would want less shots than directors normally, since they are the ones with the money on the line, and trying to save on budget when they can.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Are your producers experienced in the movie field? You seem to assume that at your level you have to constantly work as if you are a major production company. A small enterprise simply doesn't work like this. In your movies you say it's a ryan wray production. It's your baby. At this level you don't have to work in this rigid way that is necessary when your production team is dozens of people and loads of actors. Do your producers even know what an edit suit even is? You have this thing about scripts and pages per day. Are you not really thinking in scenes rather than pages? You are going to say a library to film a scene that has two actors and will last three minutes on screen. So you look at the script and think we can do that in a morning, and hour for set up, a couple of hours for shooting then 45 mins to get packed away? Maybe you've done a read through with the cast locally? You know which sections are likely to cause trouble, so they've already rehearsed that bit till its sorted. The location is therefore all about technicalities.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

On funded productions, the producers rarely have their personal money on the line, it's the studios, the commissioner or other funders who have the money on the line. Producers are more concerned about staying on schedule, during the pre production the director will have informed the 1st assistant director and production manager how many shots they plan to shoot during the schedule planning.. It's during development when producers will invest their company's money in getting funding, buying options etc. Funding a film can get pretty complex, usually the number producers and executive producers reveals how complex.

The director will usually try to keep on schedule, although events may cause delays. It's line producers who try to save on budget, sometimes they may receive a percentage of the budget savings they make. However, it's not their job to decide on the number of shots.

It's when the production is behind schedule that the pressure comes to drop scenes, not just reduce the number of shots.

In TV drama, the power is often with the producers, the director is the hired help, who may not be that involved in the editing, since they're out shooting another episode.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

..... and in Ryan's productions he is actually wearing so many hats it really shouldn't matter as he only has himself to deal with in the planning and production phases. Decisions are practical ones - you promised the location owner that you'd cause no disruption and be out and gone by 12.00, but at 14.00 you are still shooting scene 1, over and over again because the actors can't manage the dialogue, or the wall colour is blue not green, or the owner wants to unplug the light and make a cup of coffee from his only power outlet, or the costumes don't fit or, .................

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Well one of the actors I've worked with, says that I would do a much better job, if I didn't try to fill so many hats, and I need more crew who can do more jobs, and I need a line producer as well, he said, so I can just concentrate on directing, and stop trying to be a jack of all trades, so I can master the one.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Unless you've got the experience it's difficult to do all the jobs. Many of them you shouldn't be doing on the same day as the filming, however, on very low budget productions you may have to do a number of the jobs at some point.

On the filming day, your main focus should be on directing, although, other decisions have to be made. If you're not the most flexible person when going with the flow, you need to do more planning in advance. Ensuring that you have a good relationship with the people lending you locations would be part of this advance work.

Being a director involves making full use of your people skills, especially if you've got a low budget.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Ryan this actor is spot on and it's what we've been saying for ages. One of the hardest skills to manage is delegation - finding the right people who will take on the individual skill areas and letting you direct like the Captain of the ship.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Oh okay, it's just I was advised on here before to make zero budget projects, and I find it difficult to get a lot of experienced people involved, who can handle different departments, on a zero budget production.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Ryan you've been advised on hundreds of subjects, yet you are surprised? Your real problem is scale. You want to make productions that need people to do these tasks but you don't have them, or cannot have them, but persist in the need to make them. You end up diluting it to the point it breaks. One moment you say you cannot afford it, but you've also told us that money is not the issue? Film making is always juggling compromises. If you have to be a one man band, that's not a killer. It just means you must temper scale and dump many ideas that are people heavy in favour of ones that are doable by you on your own.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Oh okay, well I can spend big enough money to bring people in once, but cannot do it again I don't think. So I can try it once and hope it turns out well. The actor says to just concentrate on one area, so I can spend the money once on it, if it's worth it.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Even on no/low budget films you can use other people as crew. The difference is they don't get paid to be the assistant director or art director or line producer/production manager or make up artist.

Re: Should I work with this composer again?
 

Be aware that actors often have a tenuous link with reality, so their priority will very different from say, the technical folk - equally, if you deal with musicians, they are of course the centre of the universe.

It's just one of the things to remember.