Minimum PC requirements
 

I've been reading that's possible to capture to a simple PC from your camera head...

...to a core duo laptop above 2.0Ghz or even tablet PC? (because I'm far away from the IT side, I'm not sure if there is Core Duo processors there)

...what are the minimum PC requirements?

...what is the weight of the camera nose?

In this configuration, is there how to capture the audio together with the 10-bits Cineform signal to the PC? And if not (or even besides), timecode option to audio synchro capturing?

(Following my ignorance dealing with computers, I'm sorry but I don't know what I might about this workflow...

Merci!



*EDIT*

$12,500? Including Cineform software, right?

Is it immediately available from now?

Here's what it says about this on the Cineform web site. Apparently you need a mega-beefy computer for full ProspectHD perfromance:

http://www.cineform.com/products/ProspectHDConfig.htm

I doubt those prospect HD specs have a lot to do with the cineform RAW capture. Those have to do with HD-SDI ingest which is 10bit 4:2:2, 2x the data that the siliconimaging camera captures (bayer is like 2:2:0, kinda... or maybe 0:2:2...). also from what i understand the codec is different, since cineform raw was made to be captured portably. I still have no doubt the requirements will be high, probably requiring a higher end core duo or any athlon x2 (so no matter what you are spending at least 35W of power on the CPU). just a guess though. I saw the system they are selling runs with a core duo and probably isnt completely small or light or quiet.

The min config system for SI/CineformRAW recording is a 2.1GHz core duo, dual DDR2 667 and Intel GigE. For Prospect-HD (multi-sream editing)you will likely want a beefier desktop/workstation (assuming not for battery power operation). You can always record on the same system as you do editing. Yes...$12.5K

I will have to check the weight (is there a target while we redesign the mechanicals).

What lens(es) do you plan on using?

We do record PC-Audio 48/16 into the .AVI file and Time of Day Time Code. USB TC sync will be added.

Any more details about system requirements? Is dual core required due to multiple threads for preview and compression etc? its specifically multithreading optimized then? Is intel hardware a necessity? why? From what i've seen AMD's dual core desktop cpus likely beat out core duo and are available in equivalent thermal configurations, they also have more existing platforms and lower prices as they have been around longer.

Regarding audio, the timecode then comes from the computer system? Is that accurate enough? I thought the bios clock only had about 30ms accuracy? or is the timing directly from the cpu cock?

Yes, the program along with the encoder is very multi-threaded, and loves multiple processors.

Also another thing it likes is a decent graphics card (DirectX 9) and good memory bandwidth (dual channel memory is recommended)

Right now we've found that the 2.0Ghz Core Duo's run really nice. They both encode and decode the Cineform RAW footage at 1080/24/25P very well. At 1080/30P, you'll want to jump up to the 2.1Ghz Core Duo and dual-channel memory.

Also make sure that you have 2GB of memory. While you can get by with 1GB, we RAM buffer very heavily, so while we save anything that is shot if you have a RAM buffer over-run, it can be a little bit of a pain to have to start up again after one.

So basically any of the new Core Duo laptops with discreet graphics chipsets (the GMA950 will be supported in the final release, but right now we're supporting Nvidia chipsets) will work great as long as they have Intel gig-e (specifically the Intel gigabit ethernet chipset, not Broadcom, not Marvell, etc.), Nvidia graphics, dual channel memory, and a 2.0Ghz Core Duo.

The above mentioned system should run you around $2-2.5K, but the nice thing is that it can double as an editing system when you're not shooting.

In regards to the timecode . . . the timecode syncs to the system clock, but the actual frame-rate comes from the camera head's clock, which runs at 3ppm, not 30ppm like the computer clock.

Timecode syncs when you first start the program, and then runs off the camera head clock (in free-run Time-of-day), not the computer time. We are working on other timecode modes like record-run, preset, and LTC timecode sycning with external devices.

Hope this helps,

Jason

AMD vs Intel
 

AMD dual-core systems and multi-processor systems can be used as well. For low power applications we have found the Intel's are doing slightly better with our application.

Mes amis,

1) processors & PCs

Just a curiosity: and about an AMD Turion 64 bits? (my personal laptop since yesterday PM; I'm afraid it's not a dual-core though 64 bits ready but will it be less performant?)

Online editing at 1080p from a $2-2.5K range??

2) audio, timecode & availability

Uncompressed audio already done? Or still it will be improved in the coming months just to September?

I'm sorry but I'm not a techie just a filmmaker, wth does it mean?

Any hassles from the actual timecode available by now? Any inconvenient yet to solve just to September? Or is it audio synchro ready (from an external source, bien sur...) ? And about embedded audio together with the 10-bits Cineform signal from the camera head recorded at the same time to the PC -- any tip already field-tested by yourselves or not yet tested?

And the $12,500 offer will be available when? Now? Is it possible to buy it now? And to wait for the final version upgraded next September?

*EDIT* lenses
Since I'm an experimentalist starting at F-mount Nikkor lenses I'd like have all the options, anamorphic including. Exclusively, at my viewpoint when you are adding PL, B4, F and c mounts, you have the first indie digital cinema camera of the history. I mean truly indie. Cine camera and not video. Yours is not just HD. And after seeing your images, it's possible to compare the filmic CMOS vs the video-like CCD, visually interlaced or fake progressive. Otherwise, also as capture workflow, apparently the Cineform 10-bits codec is more efficient rather the currently used 1080 at 3:1:1.

Hi Mathieu,

>> Just a curiosity: and about an AMD Turion 64 bits?

I don't think we've had feedback on 64-bit systems. But should work fine, and maybe burst I/O is faster (with 64-bit Windows)

>> Uncompressed audio already done?

Already done: 48K, 16-bit, 2-channel. Later, depending on exactly what our customers want, 24-bit recording via Firewire/USB/ASIO.

This has been tested, although there may be tweaks to the synchronization.

With the SI-1920, I only use C-mount lenses, all spherical.

cheers,

Kyle

Salut Kyle,

Silicon Imaging Team? Or just a customer?

And with an AMD Turion 64 bits but working with the 32-bits operating system available by now?

Upgrade available then?

From the camera head? Embedded audio together with the 10-bits Cineform signal? Or you're referring the timecode in order to the audio recording separately to an external device?

Bonjour Mathieu,

>> Silicon Imaging Team? Or just a customer?

I started working with Ari as a customer/developer about two years ago, although it was clear that the project I wanted to do (build 3D camera system with industrial, "machine vision" cameras, 12-bit uncompressed), had some overlap with where he and Steve wanted to take SI. I met Steve at a trade show in Stuttgart, in October 2004.

Soon after the first versions of our digital cinema application blossomed, and I got to work with the SI-1920, color and mono.

I now work full time with Ari and Jason, as software engineer. Basically, they design it, I program it.

> And with an AMD Turion 64 bits but working with the 32-bits operating system available by now?

Should work absolutely fine, no problem.

> Upgrade available then?

Absolutely. Software upgrades will actually happen fairly regularly.

But if 24-bit (and/or 96 KHZ) audio is an ABSOLUTE requirement, mention that to Ari and Jason. Audio requirments tend to vary quite a bit, from scratch audio only, to 4-channel 24/96, etc.)

>> From the camera head? Embedded audio together with the 10-bits Cineform signal? Or you're referring the timecode in order to the audio recording separately to an external device?

I meant the embedded audio with Cineform.

> timecode in order to the audio recording separately to an external device?

Jason has plans for this, LTC etc., and I should let him answer. Sorry.

cheers,

Kyle

PS: Ari is scouting for a new name for the camera. I suggested "VIGO". Not only in honor of the creator of "L'Atalante", but also for Boris Kaufman, cameraman for Jean Vigo, and also cinematographer for "On the Waterfront". Vous pourriez m'aider... ;-)

We can figure out what VIGO stands for later.

BTW, FYI

24/96, if you require it, can't be embedded in the AVI stream, or we break VFW compatibility.

So don't look for 24/96 until we have QT working around 3Q'06.

BTW, I've mentioned this before, but without good pre-amps, 24/96 is overkill . . . you're just digitizing noise and useless bits.

The current audio implementations work great and run in-sync. The only issues are that we don't have all the timecode options available right now . . . we just have time-of-day free run. This works great though for syncing to external devices with a timecode slate or camera reports.

Thanks,

Jason

The same performance than Intel Core-Duo working with your Cineform 10-bits workflow ?

I'd like upgraded to when available and to test the embedded audio with Cineform from the camera head also when the audio synchro will be ready.

But now isn't it yet possible in any way other than as 48K, 16-bit, 2-channel and if so, I'm asking if also as embedded audio with Cineform already from the camera head ($12,500 configuration) though 16/48 ?

Or when you're saying not yet, it will be as 16/48 neither? From the camera head, bien sur... And in this case, alternatives from the $12,500 camera head configuration? Recording to an external device? And in this case until we have QT working around 3Q'06 for 24/96 it will be possible but only as 16/48?

When you're referring QT it means at PC users as well, right?

And after that, for your customers who bought now the $12,500 bundle will it be possible an upgrade option to 24/48? As firmware upgrade or even hardware upgrade?

I agree. Is good pre-amps included by your offer? Or must be add external solution? Any tip already field-tested?



*EDIT*
How? "VIGO" would be a nice homage to a great filmmaker.

Audio Support
 

The Audio recording is done in the PC not the remote camera head. The current recording application can record Audio from the PC inputs (WAV device) at 48K/16b into the AVI (Audio Video Interleaved) file.

Future releases of the software will have QT support. At that time we can incorporate higher bit depth and rate support. This will require suitable external audio devices.

We would like to chose one or two devices to recommend (likely USB). Any recommendations?

For sure...sorry me. I meant if the audio synchro it's possible to be done in the PC (a simple laptop with those minimum requirements above-mentioned) embedding the audio with the Cineform 10-bits coming from the camera head? Is that possible by now as 16/48?

Perfect accurate (that is, without hassles) audio synchro? (in the case for a $12,500 handheld configuration and of course, by now, at 16/48)

Then, 24/96 also to a PC basis or just to Mac?

So, 24/96 will not be working without an external audio recorder? Or you want to mean another sort of external audio devices... to pre-amps stuff, for example?

First, Turon processors. If it's not a Dual-Core Turon, it won't work. If it's a dual-core Turon, make sure it's over 2.0Ghz. We highly recommend Core Duo Intel processors at 2.0Ghz+. I've noticed you said you bought a single-core processor . . . this will not work I'm afraid :( 64-bits doesn't help the problem since that is a memory-related issue . . . the 64-bit procs can't take two different 32-bit threads and treat them like they are separate (like a dual-core machine can).

For audio, embedded 16/48 audio *inside* (or muxed with) the Cineform RAW AVI is working right now as I type this. We also have some nice audio level meters so you can see what's happening.

You just need a device that has standard Windows WAV drivers (not ASIO).
24/96 needs ASIO support, and QT support, since video-for-windows is limited to two channels at 16/48.

In order to get embedded 24/96, you will need equipment capable of 24/96 (such as a USB audio device, or on-board HD audio that can record at 24/96). Also this type of audio should work fine on PC/Windows, since that's what we're recording on, despite it being Quicktime.

I still feel the *best* way to get good 24/96 is to use an external audio device and sync it with the camera . . . we can do that very nicely right now since we have time-of-day timecode, so you can sync everything up using a timecode slate . . . we will have LTC syncing in the future (before release), so you can slave the camera's timecode to the audio device if you choose.

Thanks,

Jason

Thanks Jason!

Matheiu, I hope Ari and Jason have answered your questions.

One last anecdote I'll throw out, is a clip I did last year. Two SI-1300 cameras, 24.00p, 1280x720, and external audio DAT (2/16/48). Just using clapboard, the cameras hummed along synced to each. Later I added audio to the video, and it ran perfectly for more than 4-minute shot.

SI's clock synthesizers have always been quite accurate, IMHO, even when I was a mere customer.

The clocks on the 1920HDVR are even better, and completely programmable.

BTW, I do use external 24/96 device now, Saffire, recording to old laptop over Firewire. Synced via clapper with the SI-1920's. This works fine for me.

>> How? "VIGO" would be a nice homage...

Here is the thread about naming the SI-1920HDVR:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=67906

cheers,

Kyle

To anyone who's wondering:

The clock synthezisers on the SI-1920 are SMPTE spec, meaning +/- 1 frame every hour between any two devices.

Merci beaucoup Jason and Kyle!

But also for the camera head configuration working directly to the laptop or only with your recorder attached (full version)?

And can you confirm both features are available from the $12,500 camera head configuration?

Is there any laptop with on-board HD audio? Or any accessory to that? I'm afraid not...

Besides the usual suspects, any device suggestion? Or if you prefer, including and among them, pick one...

From the camera head? Available from now?

Before release? Soon? Coming one, two months?

After release is it possible to upgrade from the camera head version? Already available from now?

And specially for the camera head configuration, it will be merely a software update and not need for a hardware replace or modification, can I believe?


*EDIT*Kyle, it's already posted as you suggested.

If your laptop has a microphone input, you will have, *right now*, audio muxed with the video in the Cineform AVI format with the camera head.

The software is what's doing the audio recording (not the camera head), so just plug a mic into your laptop and make sure that Windows sees it as an audio input device, and we can read from it, and will mux it into the AVI, so you'll get dual-channel audio embedded in the AVI. So yes, that means the $12.5K version can record audio . . . as long as your laptop has audio inputs or some sort of audio input device (USB device, etc.) that uses standard WAV drivers.

The +/- 1 frame is only applicable if you're trying to sync two devices together, i.e., our camera with an external audio device. If you're recording right into the laptop (so the software is grabbing frames from the camera and muxing it with the audio), then there's no issue with sync, since we're syncing the audio right there with the picture.

The camera head is dumb. It's just a RAW data dump of visual imagery from the camera head to the computer. The software is the real brains of the camera, adding timecode, audio, compression to Cineform RAW,etc. So as long as you have the software, you have all the features of the camera. Doesn't matter if it runs on a laptop or whatever . . . the only issue is that the embedded camera will have nicer form-factor/one-piece design, and be more rugged for field use than using a laptop.

[tweaks?]

And about future tweaks before the release? (september?) Will there be just to the software or also to the hardware? (I'm referring the camera head not the recorder) I can figure even dumb . . . as far as it is viable, will it be possible to change something or not?

We know you will have changes with the new lighter, smaller and better balanced design of your full version. That's why the same can be possible maybe for the camera head or not?

[camera head prototype and its release version -- differences between them?]

QT and timecode, will it be only a software tweak or also a hardware one? And in this case, just to the recorder (full version)? New inputs/outputs design, for example? Or also will it imply any modification in terms of the camera head version available now?

Is the camera head ready or are the final tweaks already done? Would it be possible to release today not merely as prototype but as production unit? Or the last version will be different than the present one?

[audio?]

24/96 will be other new feature but in this case not for the camera head because its windows or PC restrictions, limited to 48K (but in your press release or info it is mentioned 44.1Khz -- only for the full version recorder?), 16-bit, 2-channel uncompressed audio, is that so? According your field-tested experience using the laptop recording configuration, will it be ENOUGH as audio capturing? Pre-amps? Will it be "the" solution just adding a good mixer with a good pre-amp besides the XLR balanced audio adapter?


*EDIT*Merci Jason! Your inputs are useful specially to people outside your technical field.

Software will be changing and upgrading on a consistent basis to meet customer needs....like more audio support! This update can be done via email or download from our web site

We are going to make changes to the Silicon HD Mini (camera head). We are improving the lens locking mechanism and some changes to fit nicely into the new Silicon DVR (full body camera and recorder).

Do you have any requests or suggestions?





QT and Timecode support are software only upgrades. That is the benefit of our architecture. We can eaily add more features and capabilites!

We are waiting for final Silicon on the sensor for production grade parts (improved SNR and highlight/clip compensation).

We are discussing the possibility to offer a limited number of prototype units before September. Would you be interested?




The same software application is used for both Mini (with laptop) and DVR (integrated unit). In the case of "Spoon" project they are using one of each.

In general, the on-board PC audio is only used for scratch audio only, due to noise induced from other electronics. Using a separate audio digitizer (via USB/Firewire) will provide better audio perfromance. The current .AVI files we record are limited to 48/16. QT will support higher bit depth and resolution, which will work well with these external USB audio devices. The support for QT and better Audio will be software only upgrades.

Why not? It will be a possibility. Maybe a good suggestion to the producer . . . I'm afraid your product is unique, better than video (including interlaced HD and also rather tape) and it seems to me it will be the best digital camera to indie cinema during 2006.

Is that clear regarding your field tests? And about monitoring and portable power-suppling for the Silicon HD Mini (camera head)? Is it your 7" LCD touch screen available? Other solutions? Field batteries really portable and with easy management for the cameraman operating the camera head?

Don't worry . . . I would buy a new one :)

Are you thinking this one would it be working?
http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/11890.pdf


*EDIT*Merci Ari!

1.) Proto Schedule

We are planning to have a few Mini's by mid-July. Do you have any deadlines/schedules?

2.) PC Audio

It is your choice on how to capture and record the audio. That is the beauty of the open architecture.

3.) 7" Touchscreen Display

Yes..It is available for shipment.

4.) Battery
The Silicon HD-Mini consumes approx 6W and LCD 8W. You can use the small Dionic90 (or equivalent) and get several hours of operation on a Mini rig before a change is required.

5.) Notebook

You should chose a notebook with the Intel 10/100/1000 GigE NIC. Why are you chosing a ultraportable versus a larger model with WUXGA 17" or larger display for others to be able to see and also use for editing (just curious)?

To July? No. But who knows there will be any occasion as soon as possible to testing it. I'd like to and I will inform you of my coming agenda and interest. Well, about this last stuff . . . it's already known.

$12,500 package? Is it working with the PC (Windows XP environment)?

. . . with Silicon HD Mini/camera head n'est-ce pas? (that is, in frenglish: right?) Also as $12,500 package?

Nothing special in any way other than as I love cinema-verité . . . weight and big structures, why? (it squashes the art form and I don't want it if possible . . .) This is the case where lesser is better. Lightweight and small as far as feasible. Still to monitoring, it would be interesting a gadget tool like that . . . BTW, do you know any tablet PC with the Intel 10/100/1000 GigE NIC? Or maybe it can be added to such device . . . what do you SI men say ? Or can you give us any certified system as suggestion?

Mathieu...Creative makes a 32 bit pcmcia audio card that records 24/96 stereo if you need that. It lists for under 100 US. It has drivers for WMV, ASIO 2, and directplay/directshow. It will play back DVD-A at 24/96 resolution on my laptop (a sample disk is included). It has both an analog and optical input connectors (I believe you have to use he optical input for 24/96 recording). You can even mix multitrack audio with it if needed.

There are other various firewire and usb options available that work for both desktop and laptop. I also have an M-Audio firewire 4/10 and an M-Audio Microtrack 24/96 which work with either desktop or laptop PCs.

I'd have to recomend the Motu Traveller for Location work, a 4 pin XLR makes life nice and easy power wise and it has proved it's worth to us and others on Film and Drama shoots, the SMPTE features are very usefull indeed and as we use Adobe Auditon it ties in very nicely with Premiere Pro for editing.

Hi Ari,

I recently bought a Dell Inspiron 9400 - dual 2.0 Ghz, 2gig ram (667mhz ddr2) but only 10/100 ethernet. This rules this lappy out of the game, no? Any way around the ethernet limitation?

Thanks

Steve. Unfortunately I cant find any option to get GigE into that notebook. It does have the right cpu performance :-(.

I checked the Dell Docking stations...but, no go. Ebay purchase anyone?

Merci Joe and Ian. Any thoughts SI men about their suggestions? Thank you.

A gigabit ethernet cardbus adapter? Make sure it can do Jumbo Packets (9K packets).

Thanks guys, looks like I've found my man.

http://sewelldirect.com/ExpressCard-...t-Ethernet.asp

Apparently, the expresscard slot in the Dell will be even better suited for the job than cardbus(?)

Would a laptop with built in gigE handle the task better again?

Yes, that should work, although not as well as a true Intel Pro/1000 adapter.

There are two different drivers, one for the Intel, and one for "others" . . . the one for the Intel PHY's actually takes over the controller and makes it only available for the camera, but becuase of this, it's the most stable . . . the other one is a filter driver that sits on top of the network IP stack and looks for packets . . . it can be a bit tempermental sometimes.

So, for BEST stability (not saying that the others won't work, but for BEST stability), in other words, for a what we can point to right now as a "certified system", the requirements are:

Core Duo (at least 2.0Ghz)
GMA950 or better graphics (DirectX 9.0 compatible)
Intel Pro/1000 ethernet
2GB of RAM
5400RPM with 8MB cache hard-drive

Hope this helps . . .

Thanks.

Expresscard Ethernet
 

Steve,

Sorry I missed the Expresscard option. It was not clear from the Dell website that it was included.

Expresscard (PCIe) is much better than cardbus(PCI) as it typically has more bandwidth capacity (over 100MB/s). Some Cardbus systems can only go up to 50 or 60MB/sec over PCI.

As Jason stated the system looks like it is powerful enough. The non Pro/1000 NIC requires more CPU overhead and so does embedded GMA vs separate GPU (ATI/NVidia) - ljust like a gaming machine. 24/25P should be fine. But 30P and 720/72P may be maxing out the system. You wont know for sure until you try it.

Ari

Excellent, thanks again.

So time to keep an eye out for an intel adaptor and start saving the cash.

Good luck gents, I wish you every success.

Following the conclusions from the discussion launched there:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...t=65290&page=4

And as someone said, there are two different discussions here. Or I prefer to say three:

1) Silicon Imaging capture
2) Cineform online editing and color correcting/grading
3) Silicon Imaging capture + Cineform online editing and color correcting/grading bundle

In this case and because the last two are from there, we will return to the first point:

And now, I'm requesting a laptop solution as lightweight as possible. Something like a tablet PC. It would be wonderful to have an online editing option with color correcting/grading . . . also because you Silicon Imaging guys could sell a good marketing idea two-solution-in-one. But if it's not possible, will it be at least this one as your certified capture system?

Or even better tablet PC offer?

GigE laptop querry
 

Ari -- "Expresscard"…"Cardbus" -- can you explain how to use an Intel Pro 1000 adapter with a laptop? Is this even possible for a laptop without a GigE socket in the first place? If the built-in GigE socket is not Intel Pro 1000, can this be changed in some way? I tried to find something on Google about this but didn’t understanding what I was reading. I suppose for a desktop this would be a PCI card, but what about laptops?
Thanks,
John.

Expresscard GigE
 

Expresscard and Cardbus are similar to internal PCIe and PCI connections for notebooks (which do not have room for full size cards).

It is possible to use non-Intel NIC but there is a cpu hit (ie. you need a faster machine than with an Intel NIC). The primary requirement is the need for Jumbo packets.

Check out the new Linksys EC1000(Marvel NIC):
http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Satel...VisitorWrapper

I noticed from various pictures and videos showing the camera that SI's system looks like it has a dedicated graphics card of some sort, is that going to be a requirement? or is that i/o plate just connected to on-board vga/dvi/svideo headers? is GMA 950 graphics enough? of not, what is suggested? Is there a low power card that is suggested?

GPU Requirements
 

Hi Noah,

Nice to hear from you again. Initially our application was nuilt using OpenGL which was optimized for Nvidia type GPU acceleration. We are now in the process of porting to Direct-X to enable some of our unique graphic modes on the GMA950. As you pointed out, this will enable us to eliminate the GPU card and reduce overall power consumption. The only drawback is the GMA architecture utilizes a shared memory architecture which can reduce access speeds for recording. It is therefore critical that our system use a Dual DDR2 memory system. We are adding more and more features, as requested on the board. This means we will prefer the fastest cpu possible. On the notebook side, this means 2.33Ghz Core Duo (hitting the market now)and preferably a Merom processor delivering in September. If you are using a desktop configuration which will function as recording and editing platform you have many choice. Check out David's blog for some interesting discussion on the lates Intel and AMD multiprocessor benchmarks ( http://cineform.blogspot.com/ ). An outcome of Intel's merging of mobile and Desktop architectures will lead to a new generation of desktop replacement notebooks with extreme power based on the the new Conroe processors. I will be sure to post some updates as they product hit the market!

Do you have a project you are planning to shoot with Silicon?



Ari