Body Style at DVinfo.net

Jason Cunningham · June 5th, 2006, 08:06 AM

Guys, I'm curious about the form factor of the full size SI camera. Can you give us an idea of what the production units will look like? Maybe even a 3-D generated model like the Red would be cool for now. Footage looks great, by the way.

Jason Rodriguez · June 5th, 2006, 10:03 AM

The final production model will be a lot smaller than the prototype at NAB.

We're looking at something the size (or maybe a little larger than) of the A-minima or the XL-H1 . . . just large enough to fit on your shoulder and be comfortable, but not as big and heavy as the prototype. An Anton Bauer battery (smaller Dionic 90) would fit on the back to make sure that it's balanced and not too front-heavy.

Do you think that would be a good size? Would you rather see something larger or smaller? We're thinking smaller than the XL-H1 or A-minima would be a bit of a negative, since it will then have to be carried soley by your arms, i.e., it wouldn't fit on the shoulder. And the camera weight with a PL-mount lens would be heavier than the HVX200, so for those people who want that size, they need to consider how much that will weight, and whether they're willing to hold a camera that long in their hands.

Don Donatello · June 5th, 2006, 10:13 AM

i would vote not smaller then A-minima ..maybe more around the size of the Kintetta camera ...

here's a pic of A-minima on top of Kinetta
http://www.kinetta.com/download/file...a-brochure.pdf

other photo of kinetta
http://www.kinetta.com/photos/

David Mintzer · June 5th, 2006, 11:08 AM

How about something that is ergonomically well thought out so that it would appeal to both run and gunners and those who shoot on sticks.

Mathieu Kassovitz · June 5th, 2006, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Rodriguez

Do you think that would be a good size?

As small as possible, as lightweight as possible and as handheld as possible. This is a digital camera. If you want to be the best deal you must have the best features.

The idea that how much bigger it is = better, it is a myth (to fall) to geeks not to unpretentious real professionals.

In time, surely the user want the best form factor that the technology can afford. And the best investment will be that one which doesn't need for an update as soon as possible. This will be what any investor is looking for: a value behind the time . . .

Weight and size will be the future. That's the point. It is useless to pretend that depends of the demand. Bien sur . . . but why the gear will be lighter and compact as soon as possible. See the RED example.

Jason Cunningham · June 5th, 2006, 11:32 AM

The best LOOKING camera body of all time is the Arri BL-4. Something that looks like a BL-4 or a 535 (but without the bulky weight) would be fantastic. In terms of weight, maybe something like an XL-H1 would be fine. I definitely vote for the shoulder mount camera. That way you could appease the ENG crowd as well as us filmmakers who are accustomed to larger cameras.

Mathieu Kassovitz · June 5th, 2006, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Cunningham

I definitely vote for the shoulder mount camera.

Why shouldn't it be? Handheld doesn't mean non-shoulder mount. BTW, is it the case of RED? Nope.

Quote:

That way you could appease the ENG crowd as well as us filmmakers

Indeed.

Quote:

who are accustomed to larger cameras.

Here is the fallen myth not necessarily today . . . for all, but tonight including all . . .

Brian Drysdale · June 5th, 2006, 01:17 PM

A well balanced shoulder mounted camera works best (especially with 16mm zoom lenses). You've got a hand free for focus pulling on a documentary or operating the zoom. You also need the hand held option for shooting drama, not just ENG.

The JVC HD 100 is ergonomically the best of the HDV type cameras and the new Arri 416 also looks great. You don't want too small, otherwise everything is crammed together, buttons/switches are better than menus for the main functions. However, you don't want to be covered with them like most of the consumer cameras.

A viewfinder would be useful, you really need one for making shadow detail judgements when shooting outdoors.

It should interface with the standard accessories like support bars. If you go too small with the camera you'll need risers.

Also, robust high quality connectors (better than DSR 570).

Jason Cunningham · June 5th, 2006, 01:29 PM

Guys, don't forget that this camera has a remote head. We've talking about the DVR body style. I can only speak for myself but I will be using this camera for projects where I would normally use a Varicam or a 535. Not everyone shares my needs but as a filmmaker I like the shoulder mount-style camera. If you need something light, use the remote head.

Mathieu Kassovitz · June 5th, 2006, 04:33 PM

Bein sur . . . a shoulder mount works best. Again: «why shouldn't it be?». But you can have the two-options-in-one like the RED camera. Offering handheld with a shoulder mount option. RED will be the most successful camera without competition. But only IF . . . For sure, they would like to be alone in the market.

The point is what will be the best via for to protect your investment? . . . That's why the RED camera one is as lighter as feasible and as smaller as viable. And shoulder mount too. With or without a remote option.

Precisely, we're talking about the DVR version.

Mark Donnell · June 5th, 2006, 04:56 PM

Jason Rodriguez - As a relative amateur, but still interested in your camera, please further define remote head. Will there be options for an eyepiece viewfinder, a tripod / monopod screw mount, and controls on the remote head for record / rewind etc ? These would be necessary for me, with the recording unit and battery pack perhaps connected by a cable.

Ian Savage · June 6th, 2006, 05:20 AM

I see no reason to go too small on the camera body, the remote head function dictates small is really not needed and knowing computers in general I'd much rather know there were no cooling issues with a too small body for current PC technology, having seen a Sony HD Camera give up the ghost due to heat and be far far far too noisy for certain enviroments and shots I'd much rather a larger body with more thought taken to the airflow and general cooling of the system, I have used a shuttle computer for home use for years and the whole idea of a radiator type system works a treat, I know that noise can be overcome with the remote head but on a film set there will be times that time itself is short to convert from one to the other and a lack of noise comes before a size argument (so speaks a Boom operator tired of Noisy modern camera's compromising shots and sound).

The ability to control any fan would also be a godsend, imagine a rush to get a shot, no time to convert to the remote head yet stuck indoors and all a mixer can hear is the fan doing an impression of a Chinook, it'd make life so easy to knock it off for 30 seconds to get the shot and the larger the body the more that is possible to sort, just a dial to turn it off or down and if the heat builds up then the fan can kick in to protect the camera.

Although this is really another thread would it be possible to use the FW800 (9pin) connectors in the camera ? rather than the 6 or 4 pin, they are a much more solid connector and are fully shielded, conversion leads are no more expensive than 6 to 4pin etc.

Jason Rodriguez · June 6th, 2006, 06:04 AM

The RED camera is projected to be 7lbs. *without* the lens.

I'm not sure if any of you were at NAB (I'm sure many of you were), but if you looked at those mockups with the Cooke S4 Primes on the front, those are HEAVY lenses.

I know you all want a "light" camera, but with all respects to RED, and their wonderful design, please don't include them in the "light" camera category.

Camera + Lens on the RED is going to be over 10lbs. for any decent PL-mount lens (according to their current specs), and from what I see right now, out-of-the-box, it's not going to fit on your shoulder . . . I know it *can* fit on your shoulder, but with accessories that I feel will be absolutely required, because nobody is going to carry a 10-12lb. camera out in front of them like they wield an HVX200. That's simply not going to happen. At least not for any extended period of time.

June 5th, 2006, 08:06 AM	#1
Jason Cunningham New Boot Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 13	Body Style Guys, I'm curious about the form factor of the full size SI camera. Can you give us an idea of what the production units will look like? Maybe even a 3-D generated model like the Red would be cool for now. Footage looks great, by the way.

June 5th, 2006, 11:08 AM	#4
David Mintzer Rextilleon Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Pleasantville, NY Posts: 520	How about something that is ergonomically well thought out so that it would appeal to both run and gunners and those who shoot on sticks. __________________ Red #97

June 5th, 2006, 10:03 AM	#2
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	The final production model will be a lot smaller than the prototype at NAB. We're looking at something the size (or maybe a little larger than) of the A-minima or the XL-H1 . . . just large enough to fit on your shoulder and be comfortable, but not as big and heavy as the prototype. An Anton Bauer battery (smaller Dionic 90) would fit on the back to make sure that it's balanced and not too front-heavy. Do you think that would be a good size? Would you rather see something larger or smaller? We're thinking smaller than the XL-H1 or A-minima would be a bit of a negative, since it will then have to be carried soley by your arms, i.e., it wouldn't fit on the shoulder. And the camera weight with a PL-mount lens would be heavier than the HVX200, so for those people who want that size, they need to consider how much that will weight, and whether they're willing to hold a camera that long in their hands.

June 5th, 2006, 10:13 AM	#3
Don Donatello Hawaiian Shirt Mogul Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: northern cailfornia Posts: 1,261	i would vote not smaller then A-minima ..maybe more around the size of the Kintetta camera ... here's a pic of A-minima on top of Kinetta http://www.kinetta.com/download/file...a-brochure.pdf other photo of kinetta http://www.kinetta.com/photos/

June 5th, 2006, 11:32 AM	#6
Jason Cunningham New Boot Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 13	The best LOOKING camera body of all time is the Arri BL-4. Something that looks like a BL-4 or a 535 (but without the bulky weight) would be fantastic. In terms of weight, maybe something like an XL-H1 would be fine. I definitely vote for the shoulder mount camera. That way you could appease the ENG crowd as well as us filmmakers who are accustomed to larger cameras.

June 5th, 2006, 01:17 PM	#8
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	A well balanced shoulder mounted camera works best (especially with 16mm zoom lenses). You've got a hand free for focus pulling on a documentary or operating the zoom. You also need the hand held option for shooting drama, not just ENG. The JVC HD 100 is ergonomically the best of the HDV type cameras and the new Arri 416 also looks great. You don't want too small, otherwise everything is crammed together, buttons/switches are better than menus for the main functions. However, you don't want to be covered with them like most of the consumer cameras. A viewfinder would be useful, you really need one for making shadow detail judgements when shooting outdoors. It should interface with the standard accessories like support bars. If you go too small with the camera you'll need risers. Also, robust high quality connectors (better than DSR 570).

June 5th, 2006, 01:29 PM	#9
Jason Cunningham New Boot Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 13	Guys, don't forget that this camera has a remote head. We've talking about the DVR body style. I can only speak for myself but I will be using this camera for projects where I would normally use a Varicam or a 535. Not everyone shares my needs but as a filmmaker I like the shoulder mount-style camera. If you need something light, use the remote head.

June 5th, 2006, 04:33 PM	#10
Mathieu Kassovitz Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: paris Posts: 289	Bein sur . . . a shoulder mount works best. Again: «why shouldn't it be?». But you can have the two-options-in-one like the RED camera. Offering handheld with a shoulder mount option. RED will be the most successful camera without competition. But only IF . . . For sure, they would like to be alone in the market. The point is what will be the best via for to protect your investment? . . . That's why the RED camera one is as lighter as feasible and as smaller as viable. And shoulder mount too. With or without a remote option. Precisely, we're talking about the DVR version.

June 5th, 2006, 04:56 PM	#11
Mark Donnell Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Silver City, NM Posts: 385	Jason Rodriguez - As a relative amateur, but still interested in your camera, please further define remote head. Will there be options for an eyepiece viewfinder, a tripod / monopod screw mount, and controls on the remote head for record / rewind etc ? These would be necessary for me, with the recording unit and battery pack perhaps connected by a cable.

June 6th, 2006, 05:20 AM	#12
Ian Savage Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: England Posts: 88	I see no reason to go too small on the camera body, the remote head function dictates small is really not needed and knowing computers in general I'd much rather know there were no cooling issues with a too small body for current PC technology, having seen a Sony HD Camera give up the ghost due to heat and be far far far too noisy for certain enviroments and shots I'd much rather a larger body with more thought taken to the airflow and general cooling of the system, I have used a shuttle computer for home use for years and the whole idea of a radiator type system works a treat, I know that noise can be overcome with the remote head but on a film set there will be times that time itself is short to convert from one to the other and a lack of noise comes before a size argument (so speaks a Boom operator tired of Noisy modern camera's compromising shots and sound). The ability to control any fan would also be a godsend, imagine a rush to get a shot, no time to convert to the remote head yet stuck indoors and all a mixer can hear is the fan doing an impression of a Chinook, it'd make life so easy to knock it off for 30 seconds to get the shot and the larger the body the more that is possible to sort, just a dial to turn it off or down and if the heat builds up then the fan can kick in to protect the camera. Although this is really another thread would it be possible to use the FW800 (9pin) connectors in the camera ? rather than the 6 or 4 pin, they are a much more solid connector and are fully shielded, conversion leads are no more expensive than 6 to 4pin etc.

June 6th, 2006, 06:04 AM	#13
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	The RED camera is projected to be 7lbs. without the lens. I'm not sure if any of you were at NAB (I'm sure many of you were), but if you looked at those mockups with the Cooke S4 Primes on the front, those are HEAVY lenses. I know you all want a "light" camera, but with all respects to RED, and their wonderful design, please don't include them in the "light" camera category. Camera + Lens on the RED is going to be over 10lbs. for any decent PL-mount lens (according to their current specs), and from what I see right now, out-of-the-box, it's not going to fit on your shoulder . . . I know it can fit on your shoulder, but with accessories that I feel will be absolutely required, because nobody is going to carry a 10-12lb. camera out in front of them like they wield an HVX200. That's simply not going to happen. At least not for any extended period of time.