DV Info Net - Sony FDR-AX100

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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Why would you want to render to XAVC-S ? Sony have been giving away a voucher for Vegas with the latest high end camcorders so maybe one will be with the FDR-AX100.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Question for Ron Evans.

As I do similar events to you Ron, and all of our events are currently mastered to SD DVD (PAL), do you feel the your 4K camera gives noticeable difference in detail when it finally gets back to SD?

Currently we use Panasonic AG -AC130/160 series which are a much cleaner picture then we've ever had before.

I too use Edius for all editing.

Any difference in facial features when you have 30 odd kids on a dark stage would be worth $2000!

Thanks,

Vaughan

Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Evans (Post 1829969)

Why would you want to render to XAVC-S ? Sony have been giving away a voucher for Vegas with the latest high end camcorders so maybe one will be with the FDR-AX100.

Ron Evans

Ron, for a 1080p project, I wouldn't.

However, down the road when I have a 4K TV, I'd want to avoid generational losses for my personal footage as much as possible while maintaining 4K from start to finish. By avoiding a codec change in the editing process, and keeping things XAVC-S from start to finish, I'd think that would be my best shot.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Once you have edited the file the NLE will regenerate so whether its the same or other codec is questionable. It will depend on the playback system then as to what codec is appropriate. The PC encode of XAVC-S will depend on the PC version of the codec and unlikely to be the same as the source which is hardware accelerated with a custom circuit. It will be different and could be better or worse !!!

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Ron, I agree, it's a crapshoot. It's a new codec and as with all new codecs it will necessitate some experimentation to see what works best.

To be honest, we're not even sure what will play back the 4K project on a 4K TV just as we're not sure what will play back the output from the Sony AX100. We know for sure the AX100 will play back its output on a Sony 4K UHTV, but beyond that who knows?

It's always fun being on the cutting edge...sometimes not so much. ;)

Re: Sony FDR-AX100

I think the FDR-AX100 has HDMI 2.0 so should playback 3840x2160 to any TV with this capability. We shall see !!

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Evans (Post 1830005)

Once you have edited the file the NLE will regenerate so whether its the same or other codec is questionable.

Currently with XDCAM it's possible with some NLEs to do what's called "smart render". Basically, the NLE will re-render around a cut edit for a few frames (to rebuild a valid GOP structure either side of the edit) and render anything like titles, mix etc - but the vast majority of the material is unchanged from the original.

I'd expect the same to happen with XAVC-S.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Heath (Post 1830036)

Yes I expect this may come but once the edit includes color correction or cropping it means the whole has to be encoded again. At the moment it seems that the file is encoded again even in Vegas.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Koehler (Post 1829885)

It is of course easier to provide the long zoom with the smaller sensor(s) of the FDR-AX1.
And the FDR-AX1 of course has XLR's built in from the get-go.

I find this time of year impossible to make a decision. Every year I wait for the two big
North American shows, CES and NAB, and then start making camera decisions.

I will be very interested to see if at NAB the RX10/FDR-AX100 sensor+a new lens gets mated
to a FDR-AX1 body+back end. For lack of anything else call it the FDR-AX10.

Yes, new lens, but for 4K it is not easy to make on wide angle "sharp cornes". I tried the small JVC 4K camera last year and the lens was the most interesting part - slow and not wide.

I was also very happy two years ago that new HD cameras have better LCD and EVF, but for focusing 4K we are back in that old problem - LCD has 1280x720pix for 4K focus.

Also my HW is very happy now, small hardiscs without power adapters work well with my notebook (i7), but 4K needs upgrade or proxy. I think that I can still wait one or two years then 4K start something for me. But new cameras are always so nice, I like them .-) .

Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten (Post 1828537)

Let's toss around this AS100 codec for a minute.

3840×2160 @ 30P using only 60Mbp/s?

If we compare this to 24Mbp/s (which we know can be fairly robust) at 1920x1080, mathematically this "seems" to be an H.264 "downgrade" in motion handling and durability.

So, pound for pound, 4K at 60Mbp/s would equal 15Mbp/s in 1080. (if you think of 4K in HD quadrants)

XAVC-S has something extra thrown into the mix. It runs at the very highest H.264 "5.2" level profile.

What about AVCHD? It's set at high profile but only 4.0 so it uses a lower H.264 toolset.

So here is the technical question for anybody out there that might know: Does the increased XAVC-S H.264 5.2 profile justify the lower bitrate used in 60Mbp/s 4K at 30p? Does the additional tools and calculations cover that bitrate loss?

Can XAVC-S provide at least an equal amount of motion handling at 4K, 29.97p running at 60Mbp/s as 1080 does at 24Mbp/s in 29.97p?....because it uses a deeper tool set?

Can anybody with a Handycam AX1 shoot 10 seconds of a scene with a modest amount of movement and upload it somewhere for people to test?

This new AX100 60Mbp/s only bitrate might be the biggest question about the overall image quality of this new little camera.

At $2,000 I find it hard not to make it my first jump into 4K. For a full manual camera, there is not much to lose and pretty much forces me to get into 4k sooner than I originally planned. (I'll prolly buy a "pro" 4K camera next year but start "playing" with this one in 2 months)

CT

The level denotes the maximum options and "best" feature set allowed and is a way of describing the hardware required to decode, it guarantees nothing about the encoding. For example a media player typically supports Level 4.1 in H264, and level 4.1 has maximum resolution of 2048x1024 at 30fps and at 1280x720 it supports up to 68.3fps, notice how this fits with the Blu-ray format, i.e. Blu-ray is limited to 30fps at 1080P (of course this may be as fields so 60i), but will do 60fps at 720P. Blu-ray requires a Level 4.1 decoder.

The next one up, level 4.2 means a decoder must support up to 60fps at 1080P, and so AVCHD Progressive requires a decoder that handles Level 4.2, this is why support for 60fps at 1080P is much more limited in hardware decoders as hardware decoders typically only needed to go as high as level 4.1 before its arrival.

Some people may quote Level 5.2 for the AX100 but this only relates to Sony's branding of H264 as XAVC which can go all the way up to 60fps at 4K. In the AX100 then 4K is level 5.1 (which is all that is needed to support their 30fps at 4K), and HD is Level 4.2 still.

If you take the Panasonic GH4 which has the option to record at 200Mbits/sec All-Intra makes HD on the GH4 Level 5 (only Level 5 decoders are guaranteed to cover that bit-rate), but it is still Level 5.1 for 4K HD. So to decode the GH4 200Mbits/sec All-Intra 1080P we would need a hardware or software decoder that supports Level 5, but for the Sony AX100 HD Level 4.2 will do. Of course at the moment there are no hardware decoders that will decode Level 5 or Level 5.1 available to the consumer. 4K HD TVs presumably have a level 5.2 H264 hardware decoder built in if they support playback from media. If the spec for an expensive UHD TV only says Level 5.1 for H264, we know it is limited to only playing back 30fps @ 4K, so has built in obsolescence.

There are other things called profiles, which typically cover things like colour sampling and further define maximum bit-rates. Profiles can be thought of as further refinement that allows hardware to target consumers, enthusiasts or professional applications within that Level.

Hope that helps explain it, more info on the Wiki H.264/MPEG-4 AVC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regards

Phil

Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Phil, the new 2014 Sony UHD TVs clearly state they support 4K@60p. To me that's more reassuring than worrying about what 'level' they do or don't support. Clearly stating 4K@60p removes any and all doubt. :)

Re: Sony FDR-AX100

No it creates doubt. What is the maximum bit rate? Can it decode 4.2.2, does it support 10bit? Only publishing the level and profile removes doubt.

I'd be surprised if it isn't level 5.2 however.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Ross (Post 1831805)

No way for me...

Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Hi

Just to add I'm not sure if all or if any Sony 4K TVs support HDMI 2? So you will be limited to 4K at only 30fps from any external sources, not exactly future proofed unless they are firmware updateable to HDMI 2.0.

Buyer beware.

Edit, just downloaded the i-manual for XBR900 Sony 4K TV and under supported codec list it only goes up to Level 4.2, in other words it is saying no support for 4K media files at all, seems odd.

Regards

Phil