CES 2014: Sony FDR-AX100 Consumer Cam $2,000
 

I had a feeling Sony would release a lower end 4K consumer cam. Didn't expect this one.
1" CMOS sensor and XAVC-S only upto 4K 30P.
12X zoom lens
Built in ND-filters
720p/120fps
$2,000 and etc.
Mod feel free to change the link once needed.

4K Camcorder with 1" sensor - Advanced Camcorders Sony Store - Sony US

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

It looked interesting. I'm guessing Sony's Pro Broadcast division will probably introduce the pro version of this camcorder at NAB.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

If anybody is at CES tomorrow and looks at this camera, PLEASE see if Sony allows FULL manual control on this camera. INDEPENDENT control of "shutter speed" and "gain". (not tied together)

A common Handycam crippling trick is to allow control of only one at a time. (forcing one into auto mode) Yes, even the NXCAM NX30 has this problem.

Also, ask if the sensor reads every pixel when shooting video. (like the Sony RX10 with possibly the same sensor) Or,..does it line skip to disguard the extra lines down to 4K.

Very very interesting camera. Could very well be my first tippy toe into the 4K swimming pool.

CT

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

You maybe correct Ozzy. Makes you wonder if we'd see a PXW-Z100. A pro version of this cam. I'm waiting on the VG40 4K version :D

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Since the pro versions of Sony's Handycams usually have XLRs and other pro features(including usually also being about 800 to 1,000 dollars more expensive), I will be interested what a pro version of the camcorder brings to the table.

I'm also curious how quickly 4K takes off. I'm sure the pros will love it, but, will the standard consumer really want to transition from HD to 4K or Ultra HD or whatever else they call it.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I wonder what bitrates this camera supports in 4K. It uses SDXC cards with is nice but I'm concerned about maximum writing speed with XAVC-S

Here are the XAVC-S specs from the Handycam AX1 released last year:

4K: 3840 x 2160p at 30 fps (100 Mbps)
4K: 3840 x 2160p at 30 fps (60 Mbps)
4K: 3840 x 2160p at 24 fps (100 Mbps)
4K: 3840 x 2160p at 24 fps (60 Mbps)
4K: 3840 x 2160p at 50 fps (150 Mbps)
4K: 3840 x 2160p at 25 fps (100 Mbps)
4K: 3840 x 2160p at 25 fps (60 Mbps)

Which ones will this new Handycam support?

4K 24 frame at 100Mbp/s = 12.5 megaBYTES per second to the card
4K 24 frame at 60Mbp/s = 7.5 megaBYTES per second to the card

100Mbp/s should produce great quality in 4K (compared to HD, thats 25 Mbp/s per image quadrent equaling current AVCHD level motion handling)

60Mbp/s will be too low. That's only 15Mbp/s per quadrent. This will likely produce some image breakdown with complex motion stuff. (much like 1080 HD does at 15 Mbps)

If this camera "only" supports the 60 Mbp/s codec that would be a deal breaker for me. It's gotta have the 100 codec available.

Also, looking at the screen captures, it DOES display "gain" level on the screen. (unlike the NX30) However, audio levels are displayed on those horrible "triangle" meters. Same as the Handycam CX760 and others.

CT

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

If it had 60P it would be a nice complement to my FDR-AX1. Clearly a camcorder version of the RX10 with 4K at 30p great camcorder for the people who will buy the 4K Sony TV's. Maybe the VGxx or EAxx will have a big enough body for the fan cooling for higher data rates. I was hoping for a more elaborate camcorder version with the RX10 sensor and lens.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

You can be 101% certain that Sony Pro will have "their" version of this at NAB this spring.

There is no way in the universe that the Sony Pro people would ever let this camera only exist in a consumer "Handycam" without having a "pro" version of this on their side. The first "4K NXCAM"???

It seems to me that this Handycam has a large "space" in the body for it's SD card. I'm betting that the Pro version will have a similar body but will replace the socket with an XQD card and allow 100mbp/s recording. There seems to be allot of "blank space" in that well. (one web site says this Handycam codec is only 60mb/ps...ouch!)

I can visualize this imaginary NXCAM 4k version having an NX70 / NX30 style handle with XLR and new active shoe connector.

Sony has a long tradition of sharing body styles between Pro and Handycam models. This 4K Handycam will certainly have a new big brother soon. (I'm betting on it)

I'm waiting until NAB!

CT

Edit: I think I would prefer the constant f2.8 lens that the Sony RX10 has over this one. The RX10 is only and 8x zoom and this one is 12x. I think the constant aperture and faster speed on the long end is more valuable then the extra zoom on this camera.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Reading the specs it only has SDXC card slot which may have limited the data rates so that 60P was not viable. It will do 60P at 1920x1080 just not 4K. The HDR-CX900/B is the same camera without 4K by the looks of it so a nice HD camera.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

So it looks like they designed it to use SDXC/Memory Stick cards, but I sure hope they support UHS-II. You'll probably require a Sandisk Extreme Pro to capture 4K. This also begs the question: WHY DIDN'T THE FS700R HAVE THESE RECORDING FEATURES?

Also, this harkens back to the HDR-HC1 in so many ways. XAVC-S HD also sounds promising with proper bitrates for 1080p60, and it better be 10bit 4:2:2. (8bit 4:2:0 won't cut it for XAVC-S HD)

Considering crop factors, this may as well use the same imaging area as the higher-end AX1 and Z100, since it probably is the same sensor. This one however can take photos using nearly the full sensor, whereas the higher end models can't do that.

Edit: And apparently, they're selling for $500 less the non 4K model CX900 that still has HD XAVC-S. Between that and a XA20, I'd definitely pick 1080p60 at 4:2:2 50mbps Long-GOP.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Flashbacks to the HC1!!! Brings back fond memories of that camera busting down the doors on HD...

I poked around looking for other "new toys", and interestingly, there is a "CX900", looks to be IDENTICAL, but without the 4K... and $500 less.

Just scrolled down, and I see the "usual suspects" beat me to the above comments!

This likely uses a variant of the EXMOR R from the RX10/RX100M2 - I noticed that the 20Mpixel was stated for 16:9 vs. 3:2 (RX series), so it would be a slightly different chip, but still should be similar in performance. Then again it is entirely possible that it IS the same sensor, and the specs are a misprint - that's been known to happen!

Looks like Sony is milking the new 1" sensor and BIONZ X for video now! Now I'm wondering if they'll announce the "RX11" with 4K, since it does seem like they managed it with this camera!

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

@ Cliff -
I think we need to wait to see what the specs actually are - this has a very large lens, and they state the iris as f2.8-11 in one spot, and f2.8-4.5 in another in the specs... it "might" be possible that this lens is 2.8 over more of the range than most Handycams...

The one thing this cam vindicates was my speculations that the sensor and processor in the RX10 were more than capable of 4K video - apparently with "fast enough" memory cards they are managing 30p.... hmmm.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Cinema5d.com basically states that the prototype they saw did not have a constant aperture. It's fast at the wide but slows down at the long end.

I guess that was the price that needed to be paid by increasing the zoom range to 12x from the RX10's lens.

Maybe the NXCAM version will have the faster RX10 lens with only 8x zoom? (I'll take an 8x constant f2.8 lens any day)

Alister,...If you are watching, I know you don't do "Handycams" but can you get your hands on this one?

CT

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

4K for 2 grand. I'm luvin' this camera so far.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I'm still curious why they didn't implement higher SDXC card speeds for 4k60p. Are they that afraid UHS-II will trump XQD?

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Digging the pics of the Sony site I found the following:
lens 9,3-111,6 f2,8-4,5 equivalent to 25-300 in FF, according to my calculations for 3/2 aspect ratio. For 16/9 probably around 29-348. Good wide angle, but only for stills.
18X clear image zoom. Probably zooms in to native 4K resolution. Possibly more zoom in for HD.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Official Sony video. Looks great!

On a side note I just dug out my little HC1 to take a look at it - still works! I had so much fun with that camera.

Sample Video for 4K Handycam FDR-AX100 - YouTube

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Also in another site I found the following highlights:

•Capture 4K/30p video that far exceeds HD resolution
•1″ Exmor R® CMOS sensor with direct pixel readout
•14MP video and 20MP still image capture
•XAVC-S, AVCHD and MP4 codecs
•Carl Zeiss® Vario-Sonnar T* lens with 12x optical zoom
•BIONZ® X Processor for 120 fps recording
•Optical SteadyShot™ Image Stabilization with Active Mode
•High contrast 0.39″ OLED EVF
•3.5″ XtraFine™ LCD (921K) display
•Smartphone connectivity via Wi-Fi®/NFC

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

XAVC-S is 8 bit 4:2:0 at least in my FDR-AX1 . 60Mbps is the low 8 bit 4:2:0 rate for 30P on my FDR-AX1 so I expect this is the same. 1920x1080 on my FDR-AX1 is 50Mbps so I also think this will be the same. I do not think the sensor is cropped as it looks like the lens and sensor from the RX10 in a camcorder body and is just a few hundred dollars more than the RX10 for the HD version and $500 more for 4K at 30P. When the RX10 was introduced there was a lot of speculation that a product like this would appear.

Yes a Pro version with XQD and full 4K would be nice but I think would present a pricing problem in the lineup with FDR-AX1/ PXW-Z100 and even the FS700R. The encoding for XAVC-S at 4K takes a lot of processing and I feel that is why the FDR-AX1/PXW-Z100 have a fan. Keeping the frame rate to 30P and data rate to 60Mbps solves this problem. It has the multi-interface shoe so will work with the NX30U XLR unit I am sure just like any of the other Sony's.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Okay, I'm impressed. There is way less fixed pattern noise than the AX1 and Z100 in this model. Using the RX100 sensor proved to be the winner here. A bigger sensor finally normalized the sensitivity ratio.

Now if only there was a A1U equivalent with XQD and 60p, then this will move many units. I may even consider it as a vacation camera.

But then, it could be that 60p will be coming in the forthcoming EA50 reboot with 4K.

Edit: Hold on... if a $300 action cam can shoot 4k60p, why can't this!?! http://www.xdcam-user.com/2014/01/so...4k-action-cam/

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Since the FDR-AX100 is the pro version of the Sony HDR-CX900, I doubt there will be a more pro version in the wind. I hope the only difference between the two to be the 4K badge, because the CX900 is a far better deal than the AX100.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Why couldn't there be a Sony G lens that fitted a 1'' sensor and a 1'' sensor in the Z100? That would have been perfect. But instead the Z100 got the Xperia Z1's sensor and suffered tons of fixed pattern noise even at 0db.

It'd be foolish not to replace the A1U or NX70 with a pro version of this, since it is totally possible.

So close, yet so far. We're still waiting for the EX1 of the 4K generation, and I think it may just be the EA50 reboot.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

From what I understand the FDR-AX100 is the Flagship Consumer camcorder then the CX900 follows. We'll have to wait and see come NAB in this area. I'm shocked not a peep from Canon except their mid-range gaining 60P. At least Panasonic showed their 4K DSLR and mid-range camcorder with two lens.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

No, the AX100 is the 4K version of the CX900. Some are speculating there might be a pro version of the AX100 coming at NAB. I guess it would have an XLR-equipped handle.

As far as being a better deal, if you don't want the 4K ability, then the CX900 is a good choice. But if you do want 4K, then the AX100 is clearly the better choice. The only choice at that price point, for now.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

What 4K DSLR? What mid-range camcorder? I missed this.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

It's so tempting though, the head-end is so good, that I just wish for a HDMI 2.0 uncompressed out (in 60p) to a multi 3G-SDI converter that can take it into the Odyssey 7Q. I'm willing to bet we need a new SDI standard for 4K. 12G-SDI maybe.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Panasonic 4K Mirrorless camera under glass at CES: http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/...ps093a085b.png

Canon's consumer mid range cam:
Canon U.S.A. : About Canon

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

You can send 4K over 2x 3G HDSDI's.

Definitely want to get my hands on one of these. I had an HC1 and while it wasn't as good as the Z1, it's small size made it a very useful and versatile camera until I wore the heads out.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Thanks, Monday. So, the Panasonic 4K isn't just a rumor anymore. Is this the same camera you mentioned that was mid-range with 2 lenses?
The Canon models look like typical consumer camcorders.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I mean 60p, not 30p.

Also, you will find that it will be quite the inverse this time around versus the HC1 going against the Z1 with this camera being better than the Z100 due to it's 1'' sensor.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Well the rumours are that the 4K Lumix in the glass case at CES is just a empty shell/mock-up…but I'll leave it to those actually at CES to dig for the info.

I will say I watched that Sony AX100 4K sample video again - it is incredible resolution and amazing to watch even on my Full HD monitors - the underlying sharpness is still apparent - but they are mostly static shots with little movement. Wonder what will happen when a lot of motion gets into frame?

I was also surprised at just how difficult it was to view without the occasional buffering/pausing (and I'm on a BT Infinity link - supposedly 80Mbps download speed fibre optic broadband - but often way less in reality of course…). Sure, it might be YouTube's servers struggling with the demand I guess (there were about 3,000 more views from when I first posted the video). Things will have to speed up a lot for 4K web viewing to go main stream over here in the UK I think.

I'm just about to buy a PMW-300 …anyone want to buy my immaculate, low hours EX3? My corporate clients are still a long way from 4K - some still struggle with 720p on their corporate laptops!)

And Alister, my HC1 still works if you want to make me an offer!!! ;-).

Think I might pick a AX100 up sometime in a few months time to "have a play with 4K" and see where that takes me :-)

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

You can actually use "youtube-dl", a command line program to download the 4K files to your desktop. The latest VLC will be able to play it back minus the audio. You can then screenshot 4K res files and zoom in.

I'd say a HD 100% crop of the 4K footage is on par with a HDR-HC7. (which is still pretty good)

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Glen, the mid-range consumer camera I was talking about was Canon's line. The only update to the line is 60P and other sharing storing features. I remember the days when Canon released their 1/3 2MP Full Raster Consumer camera G10. I was expecting some type of info on 4K in this range just to see where they'll be taking it. Nothing. Makes me think their Cinema EOS update may just be 60P and 10-bit at the higher end at this point. I'm looking to update my VG30 and Sony has really been catching my attention.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Monday, thanks for the clarification. I mis-understood your posts.

Sony's certainly upped the ante, at least as far as consumer cams. I think the AX100 will take all of the other manufacturers by surprise. Although didn't Sony have some 4K mockups at last year's CES?

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I know the feeling. I have the pro version of the HC1, the A1U, and I've dug it out and started playing it with it again. It was my little faithful vacation cam & B cam and I had a lot of great times with this little cam. I was planning to replace it with either a NX70 or NX30. Now, I may have to wait to see if there is a Pro version of the AX100 instead.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Just watched that video again on my retina MBP (the highest res screen I have). Nice!

Quote from the Sony AX100 specs page:

"Imaging Sensor : 1" (13.2mm x 8.8mm) back-illuminated Exmor R® CMOS Sensor"

Just a clarification question. As you can see Sony are claiming it's a "1-inch sensor" - but how does that equate to the mm dimensions stated in the brackets in the spec?

Sony Marketing Department guff???

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Best case scenario is that it is the RX100's sensor. Meaning it is 3:2 native, but it uses a 16:9 imaging area.

http://2.static.img-dpreview.com/rev...nsor-Sizes.png

My friend has a Seiki 39'' 4K display and I'll be loading up footage on that to see how it fares.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Thanks Jack.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

it's certainly eye catching, im not holding my breath till they actually publish hard bitrates. It' suspect that they specifically left that out.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Sony do not always get their specs correct. But the sensor will be simplistically 4 times the size of the one in the FDR-AX1 or PXW-Z100 so should have better low light performance.

Ron Evans