Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I'm at CES today so spent quite a while with the AX100
It's a little bigger than I thought [ in a good way] think mini NX70.
To confirm, gain, aperture and shutter all work independent and all show in viewfinder at the same time.
You can also custom assign 3 'my buttons' which adds to the already good manual control.
The viewfinder also pulls out and tilts up.
Nd on or off symbol shows on screen.
Pre order will be going in!

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

"Zebra Pattern Display" isn't listed in the CX900 specifications, but IS listed in the AX100.

Everything else is identical (except the 4K stuff, of course.) Could that just be a typo or omission on the spec sheet?

Or did they really cripple zebra stripes on the CX900?

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Here's a scenario where I can see the AX100 being a great tool:

1. You're payed to record a school or community function, like a play or orchestra. You set the AX100 far enough to get a wide shot of the entire stage. Lock it down, and let it roll in 4K mode.

2. Afterward, you can edit the footage and electronically zoom in to different areas of the stage. The zoomed in areas will still be in full HD detail. The camera now acts like a multi-cam shoot. You can get everybody's performance, even their close-ups, without touching your camera. This would work for weddings, as well.

3. Profit!

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Thanks for the great news Paul!!

Wow,...I can only imagine the debate that went on at Sony around the AX100 design table. I can see engineers and marketing people arguing back and forth about what features need crippling and what does not.

It appears from the outside that Sony wanted this "Handycam" to actually be a "respectable" video camera! (in my mind any respectable camera MUST have full manual iris, gain and shutter)

Bravo Sony! You fought the traditionally strong instinct and urge to "dumb down" this new camera.

It seems the only "cripple" is the low bandwidth XAVC-s 60Mbp/s codec.

Does anybody have experience in XAVC-s 60 Mbp/s? How does it handle motion? That's only 15 Mbp/s per HD quadrent of the 4K frame. That's the last issue that concerns me.

CT

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

It seems you are very impressed with the camera, Paul. How did the image look on the monitors? (I'm assuming there were monitors).

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

That is why I got my FDR-AX1 and it works great even with relatively poor low light performance. I have shot 3 shows with the FDR-AX1 in addition to the CX700 as a full stage camera with me using my NX5 as usual and my wife with NX30. Did not know how it would perform so used my normal setup as well. Shot wider than the CX700 and was able to crop as needed. So far the FDR-AX1 is not good enough in low light to compete with the NX5U as the closeup camera but the combination would be fine instead of the 4 I normally use. I did this approach back with my FX1 for several years before actually moving to a HD edit. My only concern with the AX100 is that it is limited to 30P. My intent was to move to all 60P so I think I will wait and see what comes. In this locked down mode the 30P may not be such a problem though.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

It looked very clean and sharp I'm not sure if the monitors were 4k or not, had a lot to take in today, the official video they were playing looked perfect to me.

Few other notes-
The Steady Shot is very good even without the magic eyeball, much better than the RX10.
The battery compartment is very shallow, all batteries will stick out and the largest V type will be level with the viewfinder.
It is very slow to power up when you open the LCD.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

For those of you who already have the Sony XLR-K1M (an XLR adapter+handle+shotgun mic+wind muffler) unit lying around I don't think the wait for the imaginary pro cousin of the AX100 is going to be worthwhile. It will really depend on the actual features but having XLR inputs sure won't add anything. Plus I have a feeling the premium will be huge.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

It's not the XLRs alone which make this theoretical pro version a much desired camcorder, it's that the pro versions of these Handycams have several added features which make them more desirable to their consumer cousins. Now, if this pro version does come to fruition, the question will become whether the camcorder is worth those added features compared to its much likely larger price tag compared to those of its consumer counterpart.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Yes, the KM 1 will plug into the multi shoe on top but you won't be able to mount onto the camera as there is not cold shoe as there is on the VG 30, so you have to use a bracket on the side.
Shame as in all other respects the camera really feels and works like the NX70

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Has anybody noticed the AX100 hotshoe? (Sony "Multi Interface Shoe")

The hotshoe cover flips up and out to the left. The shoe has "notches" in the middle of the top blades. This is OK except that the recessed well that it sits in will not allow you to drop in a standard cold shoe video light or accessory. (no room to drop in and slide forward)

Unlike the implementation of the "Multi Interface Shoe" built into Sony Alpha cameras, this one only accepts Sony accessories. (not any other standard shoe plate)

Am I seeing that wrong? If its true, that's certainly a dirty trick.

Looks like you will need a 3rd party "riser/adapter" part.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

The NX70 had a bad power zoom control. I believe this was corrected in later models.
How is the zoom control on the AX100? Most consumer cams have lousy zoom control.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

It seemed nice and smooth, nothing like the NX70 which had to work in a different way because of the waterproofing

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Hmmm - that K1M is $800... if you didn't already have one laying around, a NX version with XLR adapter/handle/mic might compare favorably?

I think the motion with 30p is the only reservation I've got (I have my doubts about Sony squeezing 60p out of this generation - that notation that Panasonic had to specially select and tweak memory to get it to work on their 4K GH doesn't look promising from a marketing or usability standpoint...). The ability to crop to HD from 4K is a huge plus. I'm guessing this will mix well with the RX10 and RX100M2 shooting 60p 1080... now to go sell some more stuff that I won't need anymore!

As for that shoe... sounds like the usual Sony thing - an adapter should be cheap enough, I have them for the AiShoes... I think they were under $10...

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

This review says the AX100 has a projector built in. What?

Sony Debuts 4K Camcorder That Costs Just $2,000

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Sony makes an adapter MultiInterface Shoe Adapter - Handycam Accessories Sony Store - Sony CA

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

@ Glen -
Methinks the "reviewer" had one too many at the after party and got the features of the PJ series mixed up with the AX100 - no sign of a projector on THAT LCD, but it supposedly is a 3.5", which will be NICE! Typically Sony utilizes the "PJ" designation on the cams with projectors, and they do have a couple new ones, all with smaller sensors than prior 7xx series cams, if the specs are correct.

I also took a better look at that cover over the shoe in the pix on that site - it is VERY long front to back, so it may well be that a stock cold shoe can be fitted? This of course depending on clearance between the shoe and the outer shell of the camera.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Yup. As Dave said, there are a ton of pix out there from all different angles on the AX100 and there is absolutely no projection lens anywhere.

Somehow it would seem out of place on a cam like this.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Has anyone who has viewed this camera at CES looked at how the 120fps slow motion works? This is an advertised feature, yet it's not listed in the frame rate / image size specs.

Specifically, I curious what resolution it uses - full HD, 720p, or something even less??

Is it implemented like "Smooth Slow Record" with just a few seconds of record time (usually 3) before the fast internal buffer has to be dumped to SD card (like high end consumer handy cams, and the NX5, Z5U, etc), or can it shoot this frame rate continuously?

Thanks for any insight that people with hands on can provide...

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

All the press is saying it's 120fps @ 720p, not sure on the length of time. Here's the official video from Sony that shows the 120 fps @ 720p clearly. Check the 1:10 mark in the video.
I agree it isn't listed in the specs, but again half of what they have probably isn't 100% just yet.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Listed on this page but not in the spec sheet. Sony Global - Digital Imaging - FDR-AX100 This is available and in the specs for the AS100V http://www.sony.net/Products/di/en-u...?contentsTop=1 Maybe Sony just got the specs mixed up !!!!

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I'd be interested in the implementation of the 120fps as well... I'm pretty sure that it's "in there" in the feature set, but not well documented! Ideally it would be actual full HD, and able to record more than just a few seconds!

The (continuous) high frame rate recording in the Panasonic FZ200 was sort of interesting to play with, I'd like to see the same capability but with the better sensor/lens!

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Does anybody know what the maximum aperture of the AX100 lens at full zoom?

I'm trying to read the lens label. I see 2.8 to 9.3. We know it's not a constant aperture.

I really really would love to have the pro version with that RX10 f2.8 constant. (Pretty please Sony?)

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Seen somewhere that said f4.5.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

120 @ 1280x720?:

"High-frame-rate shooting at 120p* and HD resolution

The FDR-AX100 supports high-frame-rate shooting at HD image quality (1280 x 720 pixels). Its ability to record at 120p enables slow-motion playback at one-fifth the speed in a 24p environment when post-processing is applied. This capability opens the door to various uses, such as checking the form of rapidly moving athletes.

* Only available when recording movies in the XAVC S format."

I read f2.8 - 9.3 as well. Like Ron & some others I shoot theater as well; (theater school for kids & teens). I'm still a 'pan & scan' guy releasing SD DVD's and I'd love to release HD stuff. This looks like a real possibility.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

F9.3 on tbe long end? Huh?

No no...im sure thats just a typ'o on the pre production lens.

Im sure sombody in the factory was dyslexic and accidentally typed "9.3" instead of the real "3.9".

Im sure its just a simple mistake.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

F9.3 could be real. The sensor is very densely packed with pixels to achieve 4K. As a general rule, the more pixels you cram into a sensor's given area, the less sensitive the sensor becomes.

I like the pics of the prototype with the XXXXXX info on the lens. As someone else stated, maybe it's an ideal camera for porn!

edit - I don't think the 9.3 on the lens means f-stop. It might mean the zoom range, maybe in a 35mm equivelant. The actual info on the lens is: 2.3/9.3-111.6.
As a comparison, the info on the RX10's lens is:2.8/8.8-73.3 and we know the RX10 has a constant aperture lens throughout its zoom range.
9.3-111.8 is roughly 12x, as 8.8-73.3 is roughly 8.3x.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

The f-stop is solely concerned with lens optics - the ratio of focal length to iris diameter. If a sensor is less sensitive, it will need to be illuminated more - hence may need a faster aperture for a given illumination - but that's a different matter to lens ramping.

Under "Optics/Lens" in this sheet it gives the answer - 4K Camcorder with 1" sensor - FDRAX100/B Review - Sony US - f4.5. So it ramps a little over a stop over the whole zoom range. Pretty much what would normally be expected.
The 9.3 and 111.6 do indeed mean the focal lengths at the widest and tightest ends of the zoom, but they are actual focal lengths in mm - not 35mm ff equivalents. (Remember we're talking about quite a big chip size.)

Since the width of the frame is quoted as 13.2mm, and ff 35mm is 36mm, those figures can be used to scale up to 35mm equiv figures:

Wide: 25.4mm (9.3x36/13.2)
Tele: 304mm (111.6x36/13.2) - a 12x lens, as Glen says.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I believe David is correct - 4.5 on the long end is the widest aperture, elsewhere in the specs there was an indication you could further stop down to f/11 if needed. I tried the range from f/2.8 to f/4.5 with the RX100, it's not a big "loss" of light - I know ANY is sort of traumatic once you've had constant f/2.8 <wink>, but I'm guessing that in practical use it won't be a major issue.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

"Sensor readout".... We haven't talked much about this yet.

We are told that the RX10 reads all it's pixels in video mode and does not line skip. (for 1920x1080 scaling) We suspect that the AX100 uses the same sensor and could possibly use the same Bionz X processor. I'm assuming the RX10 does a "pixel binning" process for scale down to HD.

What about the AX100? Is 4K too much data for that kind of readout? How does it get 14Mp (in 16x9) to scale down to 4k? (8mp)

I would imagine at that resolution, if it did line skip, it wouldn't be a big problem?

CT

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

You need to see them on a chart to say for certain. In a lot of ways pixel "skipping" or "binning" will give similar results, so no, if the reports about the RX10 are correct, I don't think the RX10 is doing anything like that.

It is hoped that it's not only reading out the whole sensor at frame rate, but that it's deBayering it fully, (as it would for a 14 Mp still) and then doing a full downconversion to HD from that.

As far as the AX100 goes, then once you've got the deBayer of the whole sensor, it shouldn't be much more difficult to downconvert to 4K than HD.

Since still digital cameras started to do decent video, that sort of processing has been too much for the technology without severe power /cost etc issues - hence the pixel skipping and binning that's had to be used with such sensors to get viable HD. (And none of them has managed to deliver much better than 700+ lines of resolution.) But technology moves on, and processing gets more powerful, so it's quite possible we are now seeing a new highly desirable era, and something as described above becoming a reality.

Hopefully. I'm optimistic, but I for one would like to see chart results before being sure - and they need to have input frequencies beyond 4K resolution to really tell what's going on.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Again David is correct from what I've been able to find - the Bionz X is a new generation of processor that can supposedly handle the date rate off the entire sensor (which I've seen described as "5K") at frame rates sufficient for video.

This approach, rather than "tossing" (If I understand the term "binning" correctly) large chunks of information, would have ALL the data available to munch on and use to produce final output, thus should yield much better resolution and overall results. So far that seems to be playing out in the RX10, and I suspect we will see the same in the AX100.

There are always "bottlenecks" in the engineering of such things - one component or another that forces compromises (like I suspect the 4K/30p being a concession to being able to use readily available memory). To the end user, it just looks like they left something out, or crippled functionality, or maybe doesn't work like they thought it would... when the sad truth of the reality is that there are limits to technology!

Ten years on, these cameras that are bleeding edge today will no doubt look rather limited and archaic, as technology marches forward... As fond as we all were of the HC1 "back in the day", and it tickled us to see it re-appear again in the AX100 design DNA, I'd venture that it will look rather "dated" when output and performance is compared!

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I've never forgotten how impressive it was to have first seen my new HC1's HDV clips being played back on my 1024x768 computer screen. Back then it was still a big leap visually compared to the best my "state of the DV art" workhorse DSR-450 could do. In about 2-3 months' time I believe the AX100 would likely do the same to my FS100 and EX1R's video like its old cousin did to the DSR's.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

David Heath made a small mistake in his calculations, because he didn't take into account the ratio difference. Hence the FF equivalent of 9.3mm 1" sensor is 29 and not 25. It would have been 25, if both formats were identical. But FF is de facto 2/3 and AX100 1" sensor, is 16/9.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

There's no real proof that the AX100 sensor is 16:9. For all we know it is the RX100 II sensor but with a better video processor. That sensor is 3:2.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

When I was saying sensor, I meant the video area not the actual sensor. The sensor most probably is 2/3, because the still pixel count is 20MP vs 14MP for the video. The video frame is definitely 16/9 and that's the important factor when calculating the FF equivalent.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

That's my #16 post in this thread:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-...ml#post1826824

"Digging the pics of the Sony site I found the following:
lens 9,3-111,6 f2,8-4,5 equivalent to 25-300 in FF, according to my calculations for 3/2 aspect ratio. For 16/9 probably around 29-348. Good wide angle, but only for stills.
18X clear image zoom. Probably zooms in to native 4K resolution. Possibly more zoom in for HD.

Usually I do my calculations by myself, but always verify them with a nifty iphone app which is called "Pcam"

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

The RX10 & AX100 sensor is 13.2x8.8mm - which is 3:2 - that is given in the same link I posted. The derivation of 16:9 must therefore involve some vertical cropping, so I'd expect the effective dimensions for (16:9) video to be 13.2x7.425mm.

"Full frame 35mm" is normally taken to be 36x24mm - also a 3:2 ratio. If such a camera gets used for video, then it's effective area will be 36x20.25mm.

For my calculations I was using the full sensor (3:2) area in each case - 36x24 mm and 13.2x8.8 mm - which yields an equivalent 25mm figure for focal length. Switch both to a 16:9 mode and the same equivalence holds true - 9.3mm on the RX10 sensor in 16:9 mode will still give exactly the same angle of view as 25mm on a full frame sensor in 16:9 mode.

If you define "equivalent focal length" as ALWAYS relative to the diagonal of 3:2 36x24mm (regardless of aspect ratio) then what Emmanuel says is quite true. But it seems more logical to relate on a like for like basis, especially when the RX10 has a 3:2 sensor, which may be used as such or switched to 16:9 mode. Otherwise, use a real FF camera in video mode and it likewise must have an "equivalent focal length" of a little more than it's real focal length.

At the end of the day it's a matter of convention, and maybe (as with calling this a 1" size in the first place) common sense has little to do with established convention.........

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

When we speak about equivalent FF focal length is an empirical way to understand the angle of view of a uncommon format for a given focal length. Therefore is more appropriate ALWAYS to measure them against the diagonal of the 3:2 FF (36X24), which is something that most people involved with photography or cinematography understand by experience.

"...Otherwise, use a real FF camera in video mode and it likewise must have an "equivalent focal length" of a little more than it's real focal length."
As David mentions above:
25 focal length of FF cropped for 16:9 yields an angle of view that is smaller and more closely reassembles to 29 FF 3:2 (uncropped).

As I had stated in my initial post, which I have previously reposted again, the AX100 has an equivalent focal length 25-300 for 3:2 aspect ratio (still) and 29-346 for 16:9 aspect ratio (video).
Since AX100 is predominantly a video camera, is more helpful to state the 29 as the equivalent focal length and not the 25.
Actually most reviewers of the camera and I think Sony itself, do exactly that.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Ever since just before hdv I've yearned for a camera which would shoot stills and video at the same time and here it is finally at last...Just pick any frame.