Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Sony is putting a lot of muscle behind this 1" sensor - I noticed that the PJ790 looks like the last Handycam that will have a 1/2.88 sensor - the "new" replacements are all basically 1/4" sensors. Too bad that it wasn't possible to move the BOSS magic eyeball up to the 1" sensor block...


The RX100 was a HUGE paradigm shift, the 100M2 was a nice upgrade, the RX10 is another huge shift in the imaging market, and now the CX900 and AX100, the latter with affordable "stick my toe in the water" 4K. Sony is doing quite a few things right at the moment!

I'm glad I wasn't the only one that had old feelings rise up when I saw the AX100... the HC1 was a great camera, and broke the HD price point, the homage to the design in the AX100 may or may not have been intentional, but it sure does tug at the heartstrings!

It's VERY safe to say that they will add a XLR module, a mic, $300-500 to the pricetag, maybe a few other minor features, and a pro line designation... I think you could make that a sure bet, probably within a couple months. Anyone wants to make a "sucker bet" against it, I'll take your money so I can buy one!

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Be interesting to see if a version with XQD and 60P with higher data rates will appear that would fit in with the FDR-AX1 and PXW-Z100 just smaller form factor and zoom range.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Unfortunately all camera companies still name their sensors with wrong dimensions. Neither the 1/3, 1/2, 2/3 inch sensors are what their name claims, but much smaller. Its a leftover of the tube cameras epoch, where their image area dimensions included the edge of the tube as well.

This camcorder is the video version of the RX10. The lens is not constant aperture, but much longer as well. Probably it will be around f3 in the 200 (equivalent) focal length. Not much difference from RX10. So all those who thought RX10 as a camcorder replacement, can now have a real camcorder instead.
It seems that the 1"inch sensors have become the 16mm of the digital age. Sony, Canon, Nikon, BM, all have presence in the segment. I will not be surprised if this sensor size replaces the 2/3 size in the next generation of broadcast camcorders.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Funny, I went hunting for my one remaining HDR-HC1 as well and held it up to the screen for a comparison and there is was all over again.
About the video comparison to the RX100. not so fast...I had one of those and couldn't pull good video out of it for the life of me but some others could and did. Hopefully Sony has streamlined / optimized the process for quick shot artists like myself who usually don't have the time or inclination to do much beyond WB and exposure. Those fractional sized sensors were quite forgiving in a lot of respects. Now looking around to see what gear I can sell to justify getting this baby :)

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

My guess once again is that the memory is the "choke point"...

As I surmised, the 1" sensor and Bionz X processor were "4K ready" from the get go, I suspect the 30P was a compromise to shoehorn "consumer" 4K into a marketable product. Sort of like early 720 "HDTV", it's not "best", but it's good, or better, while the other things that 4K will require "catch up"!

Big fast SD cards are likely to be the "consumer" solution - most consumers are NOT going to spend hundreds of $$$ to video their lives... so there's a "need" for an economical recoding media ASAP. And since micro SDHC are in every phone, and SD cards are common, that will likely be the format of choice...


I already put off the computer upgrade, as I know 4K will require more than the roughly 1.5 - 2x boost I was considering... faster processor, more memory, huge HDD/storage, video that is capable of 4K output/display... Just as dealing with HDV required a big jump in computing horsepower, 4K is going to be a leap!

OTOH, at the $2K price point of the AX100, and it includes 1080p that one could use while getting up to speed, it would appear that Sony has "done it again".

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

@ Bruce -

The RX100Mk1 was tricky to get good video out of (you have to work at it!), the Mk2 has proven better in that respect - the switch to "R" or BSI or whatever you want to call it seems to have refined the video aspects.

Plus Sony engineers have had time to tweak things - in "auto" the 100M2 is great to shoot with, the RX10 is as well, but of course If you want the most out of the camera, you still have all the possible settings one could ask for to fine tune! Auto settings work, but it's nice to have all the tweaks, even if it is a long process to learn them all!

I never quite got to where I felt "ready" to use the Mk1 for anything serious video wise although I used it quite a bit because it was the camera I had with me, the Mk2 was shooting video out of the box and getting results I was quite happy with - the Mk1 was doing excellent stills for me, so I still think it is a great camera, and Sony has continued to push the design forward. Finally got to shoot a little more with the RX10, and while I'm still getting used to the camera, at least SOME is pretty eye popping! When the camera adjustments become more natural, I know it will continue to produce good results. The 100M2 will still be hiding in the other end of the camera bag too!

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Unlike the sample video for the Z100, I'm very impressed with the AX100 4K sample video scaled to HD. That's the sharpest HD I've ever seen.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Yes. And the difference when the YouTube 4K (UHD) file was played back on my iMac's 2560x1440 screen vs the 1080p file played back full screen on the same screen was very noticeable. For all intent and purpose, I think most people who view 4K video from the AX100 on the newer 4K HDTVs will definitely see it as an improvement over 1080p despite the frame rates being only 30p/25p and compressed at relatively low bit rates.

By the time 4K has established a firm foothold in the general media consumption, maybe late 2014 or later, I doubt if Canon or Panasonic will be able to compete especially in the consumer video market.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Dave, I agree with you the requirements of the media and very likely in combination with the cooling requirement of 4K/50p,60p limited the maximum codec type and frame rates to XAVC-S at 30p/25p and at possibly 60Mbps. If the camera can do 100Mbps then great, most SDXC class 10 cards can take it but heat dissipation could be a problem.

Making the camera body bigger and a slot to accommodate an XQD card would make the camera out of reach of the majority of potential buyers because of the usability and price

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

The A1U or NX70 replacement for this camera with the XLR handle may just do that. Who knows, maybe there'll be internal storage in addition to XQD on the pro model.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Back to that Panny in the glass case at CES.

Looks like Panasonic are not letting Sony have the '4K for 2K' (US $) market opportunity all to themselves...

Panasonic's next GH mirrorless camera will record 4K video, arrive late February for under $2,000

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I doubt Panasonic will be the only 4K DSLR under $2k this year. Sony will cover all the bases as it looks like they're doing. I want a 4K VG-Series camcorder.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Yes, you may well be right that this might produce a better image. The sensor should be about 1.5 stops faster, but the lens is 1 to 2 stops slower, so we will have to wait and see.

You can send 60p 4K over 4x 3G HDSDI, that standard exists already. I'm more interested in Sony's NXL technology that will allow you to use gigabit ethernet for 4K.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

With its internal recording to a 64G card at 200Mbps for about 30 mins or so it will not be a long format option without the expense of an external recorder. Yes a VG 4K would be nice too. I am sure by the end of the year we may see all the range options appear.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Well I got to tell you, after watching the sample video on my 1920X1080 23" monitor and then watching it on my ISF'd Samsung F8500 64" plasma and having my wife actually elicit a "WOW!" when showing it to her, I hit the 'preorder' button on Amazon.

So here I am with a brand new RX10, but after seeing that video, down-sampled to 1080p, what can I say, stunning!

I do think the 30p restraint was due to internal heating in a body this small. I don't see it as a "Sony conspiracy".

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I would be the one to wait for 60p and XQD though, or better, a FDR-EA100. (EA50 successor)

I'm also willing to bet a FS700 reboot will not be coming. They fear adding XAVC-S or XAVC to the FS series will cannibalize the F5 and F55 sales.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Absolutely stunning this - has the real wow factor for me. In fact my dusty DOF adaptor, the Sgblade has just come out of retirement.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Sony UK says the sensor is 13.2 x 8.8mm. That makes it 15.86mm or just a bit over 0.6 inch. That's practically false advertising.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

They are just following the normal convention. Yes, it's ridiculous, yes, it's a convention that dates back decades (to tube cameras, exactly as Emmanuel says) and yes, it all needs updating.

But they are only following the same convention as everybody else - if you had a camera that really had taken 1" tubes, then the scanned patch on the target would have had a diagonal of about 16mm.

See Image sensor format - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - table at the bottom of the page.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

@ Matt -

Sensor size is one of those things where there is a "standard" way to measure, and it doesn't make much sense! It's not "false advertising", it's a technical spec that doesn't mean what you'd think it means... it's even worse when you get the sizes expressed as what appears to be a fraction... but it's not!

Since all the manufacturers are using the same approach to measuring, it's actually all "relative".- what is important is that this sensor has about 4X+ the area of a typical consumer level camera/camcorder, and that it is proving to work quite well - not as big as 4/3rds or APS-C, but a nice improvement over the small sensor cams, while maintaining a manageable size that's close to that of prior cameras with smaller sensors. Net result is "compact" cameras with better performance...

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Fully agree with all that. Diffraction effects etc mean that once you seriously start to think about 4K, chips sizes such as 1/3", let alone smaller, start to have serious problems. I agree that for consumer cameras 1" is probably a good compromise in terms of price/size/performance, with s35 becoming increasing the norm for full pro work.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

A lot more info here. The cam also has 50mbps HD recording in the new codec.

Sony Global - Digital Imaging - FDR-AX100

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Most Sony watchers and fans will know that Sony has a long track record of "sharing" Handycam models with the pro market. They tend to share most of the shell/body, optics and codec together. Here are past examples off the top of my head.

Handycam VX2100 = DVCAM PD170
Handycam FX1 = "Pro" Z1
Handycam FX1000 = "Pro" Z5
Handycam AX2000 = NXCAM NX5
Handycam PJ760 = NXCAM NX30
Handycam AX100 = NXCAM 4K ????

So, I would guess that most of us expect the same thing: NAB will reveal a "pro" version of this 4K Handycam. So what will this new NXCAM look like? Here are my guesses:

Same shell and generally the same body.
Wider hand strap
XQD socket. (The current SD socket well is big enough to modify/expand to XQD)
8 bit 4:2:0 XAVC-s 60 and 100 Mbp/s
XLR Handle (similar to NX30/NX70)
Raised internal mic (like NX30)
Same optics but I think the RX10 lens with constant f2.8 would be an upgrade. (even though zoom is less)
Real calibrated linear audio meters. (not the Handycam triangle things)
Nicer lens hood

What do you think? I'll bet my EX1r and FS100 that a "pro" sister will be out in the spring.

Anybody agree? I'm guessing a $3500 price tag.

Alister, have you signed a non disclose agreement yet? ;-)

CT

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Cliff, that's a good summary. I see what you mean about the card slot area. It does look like it can fit a bigger card.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I agree with you. And I'm guessing the "pro" sister to the AX100 will be announced & revealed at NAB. I think the $3500 seems a little steep to me. I'm guessing closer to $3,000. That way Sony Pro can say that it is Pro 4K for 3K. Of course, I could be wrong.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Don't forget the built in LED lights. :)

Even though this doesn't have two XLR inputs, I could see using two of these for sit down interviews and either use external audio recorder or run one lav receiver to each camera and sync in post. Two cameras for $4000. Wow.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Cliff, do you think the pro version will do 60p @4K? I'm guessing no.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Differential is usually about $500 to $700 dollars depending on available deals. I know that when I got my NX5U it was only $200 more than the AX2000 and came with Vegas , the NX30U was $450 more than the PJ760 and also came with Vegas !!! Both of course came with mics. The PXW-Z100 is working out at just over a $1000 more than the FDR-AX1. So my guess would be $2800 with the XLR unit and mic. The extended internal mic on the NX30 provided the cold shoe of course. Differentiator to the FDR-AX1 and PXW-Z100 would be to keep the FDR-AX100 pro unit 30P and 60Mbps but give it time code and user bits.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Dont think 60p will be on this imaginary future 4K NXCAM sister. They have another model above it to protect.

Actually, this camera seems to threaten the Z100 a bit too closely. That "1 inch" sensor could very well produce a significantly better image than the Z100's. (adding that RX10's constant f2.8 lens would make it even faster in the mid zoom range and challenge the Z100 even more so) Yes, I know the Z100 has profile options and a real iris ring. Yes, it's body "looks" more "Pro" too. But just looking at pure image quality alone?...I think this little 4k camera might beat it.

So yeah,..no 60p. I could be wrong but that might not be smart for Sony to add that to an already strong performing $3,000-$3500 fictitious 4k NXCAM.

I'd love to see Alister comment on this before he signs those Sony "do not talk" agreements. He can speculate with us all he wants before that. Afterwards?...he's locked up until April ;-)

I bet this HandyCam AX100 and it's future 4K NXCAM sister will make a few marketing gurus inside Sony very nervous. They will probably we watching the sales numbers EXTREMELY carefully. If they see high sales numbers on "cheap" 4K models and falling sales numbers on more expensive HD-only cameras....wow. That could be a scary thing for them. Yikes!

The HD to 4K transition and future camera model marketing could be tricky to navigate for Sony, Canon and Panny.

CT

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I doubt there will be a more professional version.
First this is the prosumer version of CX900, just as NX30 was the prosumer version of PJ760. I cannot remember a case when Sony had launched 3 similar cameras.
Second there is an optional XLR unit for the AX100 the Model: XLR-K1M

In my opinion this camera is the love child of BMC. They had to rush out a competing product, because of the impact BM had on the market. A product that on the other hand totally disrupts their pro lineup. Panasonic is doing the same.
I'm pretty certain that the AX100 will produce a better picture in HD than pmw 200 which uses the ancient sensor of the EX1, a less efficient codec, can't do 1080 50/60 and costs $6.3K. Not to mention the 4K cherry of the AX100. The lens is 12X with 24X clear zoom (HD) compared to 14X for the PMW200. Its slower, but the difference in sensor size will probably make up for that. The only real advantage of PMW200 is better ergonomics, but for 3X+ the price.

I believe, like Red, who forced high end cameras to retail half price, BMC will also halve the price of the $6-10K cameras.

Wait and see...

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Nothing too tricky about it... they failed to sell 3D TV's... so they MUST drive the UHD/4K market.

3D was a gimmick, and not something that the average shooter could deal with - limited display options, most of which cause headaches etc for at least some viewers... arguably a technology that was nearly DOA...

BUT, most people CAN see sharper images on really HUGE screens, and appreciate the difference. The displays are dropping in price, so the next challenge is content... there are already bloody "4K" camera phones and tablets and super high resolution screens in smaller devices... if 3D was something that most people didn't really want or care about that much, ultra high resolution screens are something that literally "connects" with the end user...

Into this market, Sony probably remembered (just as we all did) the HC1 - $2K price point, semi "pro" features, relatively affordable - arguably it broke open the "HD" market to the "average" shooter that couldn't afford or didn't want to lug around a larger "pro" camera like the FX1 and Z1. The comparison is inescapable - this is the way to get "content" and sell more 4K TV's! Panasonic is banking on that GH with "hot rodded" memory that as far as I can tell isn't even available, to do the same thing for their 4K TV's...


I knew from the specs that the "R" version of the 1" sensor in the RX10 was probably designed from the get go to be a "4K" output sensor... the specs on the Bionz X similarly indicated this was likely a "4K" processor... I'm still scratching my head why the RX10 wasn't given the "point position" in the breakout (it still does quite impressive 1080 60p)! The answer to that may lie with the sensors in the A7/A7r not being as capable as the one in the RX10, and it would have been a tad embarrassing! Rumor is that it will be the next gen Alpha coming "soon" that will get that honor on that side of the Sony line. The AX100 gets the honor on the Handycam side.


The one "compromise" seems to be the 30p in 4K mode. I noticed that the 4K Panasonic GH had to use specially "tuned" memory for higher bit/frame rates... That's where the bottleneck is at the moment - any memory cards have to be very fast and very large (AKA initially expensive) to "do" 4K. They will also need to run cool while all those bits are being shoveled in! It would appear there isn't even such "overclocked" memory commonly available! Quick solution is to bring the bitrate down with half the frame rate so existing high spec cards can handle the "storage/recording media" question.

As Ron has noted, 30p may or may not prove to be an issue with high motion scenes... so it's hard to say if the compromise is a good one or not, and I'm sure we'd all prefer 60p...

While there "could" be heat issues, I'd suspect Sony made very sure to avoid thermal problems in the sensor and processor, due to all the criticism of the NEX (and some early Alphas) with video. The "new" 1" sensor and Bionz X are the hardware foundation, but memory has to catch up... both in specs AND in production quantities that don't have to be hand picked and "tuned" to be usable - we've all run into "memory card issues", this one is a BIG one!

As it is, I'm sure that Sony will STILL run into a lot of "customer service" calls and bad reviews because a lower spec or substandard card is used.


So I guess we wait for new high spec affordable memory... and then there's another "missing element" - how exactly are we going to DELIVER 4K - I'm presuming BR disks aren't an option? Or can we burn 4K to BR like it was possible to burn HD to SD disks? Do we shuffle huge files around on fast HDD's or high spec USB sticks? I'll admit to being a bit behind the curve on this, and pretty happy with "HD", but that's where the AX100 gives a "toe in the water" to get a handle on 4K!

As Ron has suggested, pan/scan of 4K files should be useful for HD output for the foreseeable future, and the camera is a good entry into 4K at a reasonable price (and should shoot very nice 1080 60P!). I don't know how well the CX900 will sell, but the AX100 will get a lot of people in the door to 4K, and they will all want to display on a 4K TV, edit on faster computers with 4K displays, etc, etc...

Sony obviously "gets" that "enthusiast" market, and is charging into it with innovative approaches to imaging devices. They'll also leverage the new tech into the pro market as they typically do. Next year, maybe memory will be more up to speed... and the "wish list" will be fulfilled...

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Yes, I do think there will be a pro version of the FDR-AX100, as has been pointed out, that's what has happened historically. It will most likely add an XLR adapter, maybe the ability to switch between Pal and NTSC regions and possibly a couple of paint settings. I suspect on the AX100 the manual setting won't allow you to do everything manually while the pro version would.

I doubt it will ever do 4K at 50 or 60p, it only has a slot for an SDXC card, no high speed media here.

I do think that in good light this camera might do very well, maybe better than the Z100 due to the larger sensor, but in low light the difference will be smaller due to the slower lens on the AX100.

Will it impact the Z100 if there is a pro model. Probably, but that's always been the case, for example HC1/Z1. The AX100 is limited to the lower bit rates by the SD card and there is only one slot so no slot switching. Manual control will be more trickier as there are not enough controls - press a button change iris, press button again to change shutter etc. It's smaller so will be fiddly. By the time Sony add the "Pro" premium the price gap won't be as big.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

This has happened several times before in the line ups. The VX3 Hi8 challenged the then pro cameras, then the VX1000 etc. At that time though there was a definite preference for shoulder mount cameras and detachable lenses that protected the pure pro models. I used to rent Panasonic pro cameras until I got my FX1 that was far superior even at SD and surpassed the image when shooting HD and downconverting. Not rented cameras since. I have bought cameras from Sony at this $4500 sort of price point since the VX3 and they usually have some feature lacking on the pro models and missing some features !!! That's how it works. If you want a particular feature there are usually a few models in the line up with it . But not all. Frame rates, lens, codec memory, user features etc. You have to choose what is important for your uses. There will definitely NOT be a model that has them all. That would definitely be silly marketing especially if its only $2000 !!!

For interest look at the new action cam AS100, 5 can be controlled by a wrist controller, XAVC-S similar sensor as the FDR-AX1/PXW-Z100, 50Mbps but HD so 60P. When do you think we will see 4K version !!!

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Being an EX1r and FS100 owner, a week ago I would have emphaticaly stated that I will NOT even "think" about investing into 4K untill 2015-2016. Now, in one big swoop, Sony has just suddenly reversed my thinking. I'm amazed at how easily and quickly they did that to me!!

That much image quality for just $2000-$3500??? (assuming the NXCAM 4k sister is almost here)

At worst case scenerio, I will dive into 4K with this Ax1000. With a little black tape over the "4K" label, I believe I can seven sucessfully hide it from my wife and she will be non the wiser! (just kidding..gulp)

Even the biggest 4K cynics can justify spending $2000 on this thing. I even think you will see this little Hendycam floating around the offices of allot of TV stations too just a a toy and for editor testing off air.

I think even the WORST "4K hater" will find it easy enough to grab one...if not just for the only purpose of sticking his toe in this new 4K swimming pool.

The more you think about this, the more attractive it begins to sound.

The "wow!" to "dollar" ratio is amazing.

CT

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Cliff,

I know the feeling. I tend to be an impulse buyer myself. But, we need to let cooler heads prevail. Right now, we are just speculating. We need to see this pro version(if it does come out or does exist) in action. What advancements it will have over the AX100, what the price will be and if the price justifies what it offers as a camcorder to us. It's easy to be caught in the moment. But, logic and our wallets will eventually make us decide whether we want(or NEED) this camera or not. Or at least, it will for me. But, first Sony Pro has to show the camera first which I still speculate will be at NAB.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

My thinking precisely, Cliff. That's why I hit 'pre-order' on Amazon!

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I agree. I dont see myself "leaving" HD for a while. I have four HD cameras and they arent going anywhere. I also dont see myself losing a paying customers because I'm not shooting in 4K for a while either.

This new 4K camera is really more for "me" as a personal toy!. ;-)

However, the ability to shoot a wide stage of actors in 4K and then zoom/crop a tighter shot in post from the same camera? (for HD delivery) That is a very interesting plus as well.

I'm getting really excited about 4K but I'm not selling my HD gear yet.(Not until customers start demanding 4K from me)

CT

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Cliff,

I fully understand here. I recall that when HDV made its first introduction, there were many who didn't want to give up their VX2000s/VX2100s or PD150s/PD170s for a FX1 or Z1. I eventually made the first leap with a HVR-A1 and that little cam has been my trusty companion on every thing I do handheld wise and my cam of choice on vacations. I was planning to finally move on from my A1 and get either a NX70 or NX30 this year, now, I may have to wait to see if the pro version of the AX100 comes. If it doesn't or if it does and what if offers doesn't tantalize me or make me think it is worth whatever its price is, then, I'll go back to deciding between the NX30 or NX70. For now, I'll play the wait and see game.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

You don't need a much faster card for 50/60p - at least not in a long-GOP system, as XAVC-S is. (Just keep the I-frame interval the same - 1/2 sec say - and double the no of difference frames.) That's exactly why AVC-HD manages to record 50/60p of HD with only 28Mbs, not much more than the 24Mbs for lower frame rates.

What *would* need a much faster card is any I-frame only mode, and here doubling the frame rate does indeed mean doubling the data rate

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

If my math is wrong please correct me:

8 bits in a byte. 100 mega bits per second = 12.5 megaBYTES per second.

That is high but not out of the question for the fastet SDXC cards.

60 megabit is still 7.5 megabytes right?

I still think the imaginary NXCAM 4k version will have the card socket switched to XQD anyway.