Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Ron, I think it's pretty clear the AX100 isn't for you based on all your posts here.

With that said, and from the footage I've seen thus far, I think you're totally wrong about expectations being too high for performance. The footage looks great and frankly, better than what I've seen from some more expensive cams.

But inevitably, one has to ask in response to your statement, whose expectations? For those expecting professional results from a Handicam, yes, they'll be disappointed. That's not realistic. For those like me who are expecting excellent 4K video from a small, (which the AX1 certainly is not) form factor and possibly even better performance in some respects with its larger sensor, the AX100 won't be a disappointment.

If one approaches this realistically, just as I did with the RX10, I'm sure most will be pleasantly surprised, not disappointed in performance. I saw the same kind of doubt regarding the RX10's performance prior to its release, and we now know how wrong that was. :)

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Couldn't agree more, Joey. We almost have no right to expect this kind of performance in something so small and relatively inexpensive.

The much higher peak bitrates already eliminate some of the 'bitrate naysayers'. There was absolutely no issue with the codec & bitrate keeping up with all the very fine moving detail.

BTW, being as impatient as I am, I'll probably wind up picking it up at the Sony store on the day of release. That's what I did with the RX10.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

The Shallow DOF is an added bonus. I wish I could pick it up locally but it would cost an additional $180 in Tax. I'll have to live through your videos until I get mine Ken lol. I'm sure I'll check it out at the Sony store while it is shipping to me.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

The video is a 1920x1080 downscale edited in FCPX so the choice of data rates used is with this edit/encode .mov file not the original XAVC-S file. But yes as I have found 30P XAVC-S at 60Mbps if set with 1/60 shutter is just fine with lots of detail and downscales wonderfully. Default auto on my AX1 for 30P sets the shutter sometimes at 1/ 30 and then of course there is lots of image blur especially with any camera movement. I am sure the output of the FDR-AX100 is just like my AX1 in this regard and the codec is certainly not the issue. I really cannot tell much difference between 30P at 60 or 100Mbps. I too can't wait to see the FDR-AX100 when it comes out.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

still taking any online compressed videos with a grain of salt, im not quite impressed with some of those motion shots, but it may not be present in the raw footage. i like my rx10, but it artifacts just like any other avccam in high motion, i certainly hope the ax100 is a step in the right direction.

im a bit behind on the current info. has there been anything about the lens controls being fly by wire, or directly controllable?

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Hi

Higher bit-rates are from the video buffer, it's how these things work. Blu-ray can peak to 50 or 60Mbits/sec given a favourable wind but it's still just 40Mbits/sec, and so the Sony 60Mbits/sec is still the maximum read/write media data-rate. The maximum peaks are generally relative to the data-rate so a camera recording at 100Mbits/sec will have even higher peaks and so on. Even DVD has a buffer and can peak above 10Mbits/sec, but we see it more on modern implementations of codecs as memory is cheaper and so buffers can be set larger.

It is diminishing returns of course as no such thing as a free lunch. For every peak above the maximum reading/writing set bit rate, bits then have to be starved by the same amount to avoid buffer under-runs, so this peak is only for a very short time in favourable conditions, typically on a scene change peaks are seen to allow coping with closing a GOP early and inserting extra I frames.

Regards

Phil

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

The downloaded video from Vimeo shows no motion artifacts that I saw Darren. The complex nature of the branches in front of the pine tree or the fine detail of the cat's fur, exhibited excellent motion detail. The YouTube version, not so much.

I'm actually very surprised and pleased how well the detail is holding up with motion.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I'm not so sure Phil. I payed very careful attention to the bitrate as the scene complexity and detail changed in the downloaded video. The more complex the scene, the higher the observed bitrate. The most complex scenes (tree limbs swaying in the wind, the cat's fur in motion) showed bitrates in excess of 90Mbps. That's over 30Mbps over the stated 60. To me it looks like a dynamic response to detail as opposed to a buffer.

I would offer further support for this argument based on the fact that I saw no mush or detail degradation at all. In fact, better than my RX10 under the same conditions, and this at a much higher resolution.

The bottom line? Who cares if the detail holds up much better than expected and many here predicted? :)

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Ron, you're right, given this was an edit, we really don't know what the native file bitrate looked like.

But as I said to Phil, whatever it is or was, there were no observed motion artifacts and that's all that counts. :)

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Did you miss 2:26? i think the motion detail is pretty good considering the bitrate, but at that point in the video the breakdown is pretty clear. i've certainly seen worse, but this camera is far from free of it, and i wouldn't expect it to be considering the bitrate

point it at moving water, that's about the easiest way to see if it turns mushy

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Nope, not on the downloaded version Darren. There is absolutely no mush at 2:26 in the downloaded version. None. Perfectly clear and perfectly sharp with the branches swaying in the breeze.

I saw mush clearly in the YouTube version precisely at that spot, but it's totally gone when you download the .mov file he posted. The 2:26 on YouTube is due solely to YouTube compression. :)

On AVS someone posted a frame grab of that spot on the YouTube version and thought that the codec had reached its limit. He then downloaded the video from Vimeo as I did and posted later that there was no mush in the downloaded version and it had considerably more detail. He correctly attributed the mush to YouTube compression. The difference is dramatic.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

maybe we're talking about different things... because yes i downloaded it, and have viewed it blown up, and yes there is motion artifacting, as one would expect from high compression. it's not bad, but yes it's there. it appears to be a good performance, but you cannot call it artifact free.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Darren, perhaps I missed it since I watched it full screen only without pixel peeping. I never 'pixel peep' videos or zoom into them. To me I don't see the point since that's not how I watch videos. A few videographers I know watched it and also reported seeing no artifacts with typical full screen viewing.

Perhaps if you typically enlarge your videos it will show up, but I'm sure most video cameras subjected to that kind of scrutiny would also show flaws.

The other thing here is that we're dealing with a new codec that we're not entirely familiar with. So using our experience founded from compression schemes like AVCHD, may not be an accurate predictor in guessing the degree of artifacting. Thus the assumption 'as one would expect from high compression' might not apply to the same degree as what we experienced in the past. I think this is why many that have viewed these videos have been rather surprised by the lack of artifacts.

The videos I'm seeing are at least as clean or cleaner than my RX10. That's good enough for me. :)

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Not seeing any artifacts either but I also viewed it in a way anyone else would. Rolling otoh shutter seems quite severe though.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Found a link here for the AX100 manual

http://support.sony-asia.com.edgesui...4534651111.pdf

This is really starting to look very good, really pleased to see that level of quality down sampled to HD in FCPX as that will be my workflow.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

That definitely didn't look great at the end Noa, but that was a pretty severe test. I think the real test will come with more typical usage. I've had some cameras in the past that looked pretty bad with that wild back and forth panning test, but in real world usage showed few rolling shutter issues.

I'm guessing for typical panning speeds this won't be much of an issue. We shall see.

Paul, I am amazed at how good the down sampled video looks. I think this was another area that some were suspicious of in the Sony demo. I heard some conspiratorial explanations on other forums that ranged from 'it wasn't really shot with the AX100, but rather a higher end 4K camera' or 'it was shot with the AX100 but recorded to an external recorder' to 'it was doctored in post by Sony'.

This is probably testimony as to how good the output of this camera actually looks.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

For my use that amount of rolling shutter wouldn't be an issue but I guess for anyone shooting sports or any other fast moving objects it would be.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

We have to remember that we are all looking at a downconverted file. What was used to downconvert ? There are big differences in downconvert algorithms that can introduce artifacts.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I have read (and forgot where) that the HDMI output format for 4k is specifically designed for the Sony Bravia 4K TV's... What does that mean? Can full 4k be played from the camera to a Samsung 4k TV?

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

HDMI 1.4a can only send 30P to a TV but HDMI 2.0 can send the full 60P. Initially the Sony FDR-AX1 HDMI output was a special Sony protocol that would send 60P but only to Sony Bravia 4K TV's. The latest FDR-AX1 firmware updates this output to full HDMI 2.0. However a lot of the early 4K TV's only have HDMI 1.4 so can only receive a 30P signal unless their firmware can be updated. Some low cost displays may not be able to refresh 4K at 60P also. The FDR-AX100 is only 30P anyway so should not be a problem.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I had asked the same question when they announced the AX100. FWIW, a couple of Magnolia stores have offered to let me play the AX100's output to their Samsung 4K TVs. I think it's an important question.

I'd like to think that the output is not proprietary. Ron is correct in that HDMI 2.0 should resolve any 60p issues, but that's not the issue here. Until we actually try it, I don't think we'll know for sure.

I plan on doing this shortly after I receive the camera and I'll report back. I'm also planning on getting a large screen 4K TV this year, so I'd like to think I'd have some flexibility in brand offerings. Samsung & Sony are on my short list.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Hopefully Sony's on-the-fly downconvert implementation in the camera is of high quality, as I suspect many will be connecting the AX100 to their HDTVs and watching 4K footage downconverted.

Questions questions, few answers yet. ;)

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I downloaded the video from Vimeo and watched it a few times last night and even my wife said that the video was noticeably sharper/she said looked more HD and she usually can't tell between SD/HD.

I did notice that it had some weird movement on the static shots almost like he had it on a tripod with the OS on. Has anyone else noticed that? If it was handheld the stabilizer works great.

I want to say my old HV20 had the same amount of jello if you swung it back and fourth and it did fine on all the action I shot if you followed it.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Focus is very critical for 4K as the image is so sharp. The normal hunting the autofocus does is noticeable when shooting grass or water etc and needs to be in manual focus. At least that is what I have found. The shallower depth of field with the larger sensor of the FDR-AX100 may make this more obvious too.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Joey, yes, I absolutely noticed this movement. In fact, it's my biggest concern about the camera. I say that because the biggest failing of my RX10 is the relatively poor implementation of the OIS. Without a tripod, it's virtually impossible to get steady shots anywhere near the end of the zoom range. To be honest, when Sony does OIS right, you can handhold those shots and it really looks almost tripod mounted. IMO, a couple of those clips were not giving me that kind of impression. Of course we don't know for sure how zoomed out he was.

With the RX10, I deliberately keep the zoom biased toward wide as a result of the inevitable shakiness at long focal lengths. So when I saw what I too would characterize as some unsteadiness on the part of the shooter, it got me concerned about the OIS. Now to be fair, I've never seen a poor implementation of OIS in recent years from a Sony Handicam camcorder, so it could be something else. In fact the thought I had was whether the guy was testing rolling shutter in a more realistic manner than he did at the end of the video.

I attribute the OIS behavior in the RX10, more to the relatively massive size of the lens which, if correct, would be less of an issue with the AX100.

BTW, one of the videos I once posted was from the Canon XA10. There were guys yelling about rolling shutter as the result of that same kind of wild panning back & forth. So I shot a clip as I was walking and doing normal pans. Nobody, except one guy, could see any evidence of rolling shutter in that clip. To me, that's a more realistic test. The one guy that said he saw it, just 'expected' to see it, and thus he saw it. :)

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Hmm, it says on page 24 that on the AX100, a 64GB memory card can hold 2h 10min of XAVC S 4k footage. So if my math is right then it records at ~8.2MB/sec recording rate, or an average of ~65.6mbps.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Well, I'm sure the "I wanna swing my camera back and forth" crowd will be disappointed, but when that qualifies as proper camera operation, we're all in big trouble! It's a way to show that a sensor has "rolling shutter" or a sequential read sensor, so what? If there is a global shutter read option available, then there's something to talk about, otherwise, this is the available technology, be aware and shoot accordingly. Global shutter will no doubt come eventually, once there is a processor that can chomp data down at the required rates, but 'til then...

One thing I've noticed on the smaller cameras at long zoom is that WIND seems to be a particular challenge to the image stabilizers - I'm guessing it's an irregular movement or something, and I know it shows up with long extended lenses! It's an annoyance, but long zooms are always a challenge, simply because you're trying to fill a frame with an object some distance away... it's like a sniper shot! Notice how much effort is placed by a sniper to have EVERYTHING stable - bipod, sandbags, lying prone, breath control, special trigger mechanisms, etc... I actually think it's pretty impressive that cameras do as well as they do at stabilization!

One of the "tricks" with steadicam operation is to stick with a wide lens - it will minimize any shake that might get through the rig - you don't see long zoom steadi shots...

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Not all the 64G is used for data. Some needs to be reserved for the file allocation tables, any directories that the camera creates etc.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Pete, I'd bet they're allowing for peak bitrates during complex scenes. I'd be surprised if this records at a fixed bitrate.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Ron, as I recall when looking at these files structures, they take up a really tiny amount of space.

Dave, I fully intend to swing my AX100 back and forth wildly for at least 50% of my shooting. Now why is that my wife refuses to watch my videos? :)

Seriously, these tests have always amused me. But I guess the shooter is trying to make a point.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

As an example Ken for one of my 32G XQD cards formatted in exFat the usable space is 29.8G. Similar record times are quoted in my FDR-AX1 manual and I can confirm they are about correct from my recording. Subject matter does effect the recording so they will not always be the same. My FDR-AX1 in its present form does not take stills or have metadata both these require other directories to be created on format and thus allocate more space. With this in mind I think the data rates will be about what is quoted. For AVCHD at 60P the quoted data rate is 28Mbps but the average is in fact closer to 24Mbps.

Ron Evans

When will Handycam Sony FDR-AX100 go out?
 

Hello, do you know when will Handycam Sony FDR-AX100 go out? It is a 4K. When will it posible to get it?
Thanks

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

The rolling shutter on the AX100 seems to be relatively heavy. I'm used to dealing with the EX1r and FS100 but this seems to be a good deal more Jell-O than those guys.

I also own an RX10. Now,..this camera does not have the same skew problem that the RX100 seems to have. (It's of course there, but better controlled)

But why? Many believe that the RX10 and the AX100 share the same sensor and Bionz-X processor. Both are reading the same surface area and the same pixel count. (But the RX10 uses a pixel binning scale-down for HD and the AX100 uses different math for 4k)

So if the AX100 rolls this much,...why doesn't the RX10 also display similar artifacts?

Could this artifact be "intentional" to allow some "separation" between the AX100 and other Sony 4k cameras to be announced soon? Let's not kid ourselves. This camera NEEDS to have "limitations" that persuade higher customers to buy Sony's higher 4K cameras....it's downright vital.

The AX100 needs to be a good camera.....but not "too good" for just $2,000.

The lower market cameras have a lower profit margin than the upper models. We as consumers hate this talk but it IS a business consideration in the design stage of any camera today. Sony is already giving us allot for a little money. Giving us more would probably be crazy cannibalism on Sony's part. You can be certain that Sony has MANY other new 4K camera designs in the works right now.

CT

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I've been saying that we haven't seen Sony's Pro division have a hand in this yet. So far, FS700 upgrade excluded and the expensive high end Cine Alta cams, we haven't seen an affordable 4K Sony cam from their pro division. The only semi-affordable cams have come from Sony's consumer Handycam line like the AX1 and now the AX100. I've been saying that at NAB, I expect to see Sony reveal some 4K alternatives for their NXCAM and XDCAM line of camcorders. NAB is only a month away, so, we'll see.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

I'd agree Cliff, relatively heavy, but I still believe easily avoided. Now of course if your work does involve whip pans or something akin to it, you may have an issue. But for those of us that don't, I don't think this is too serious an issue.

I've had Canons with bad jello and with the kind of shooting I've done, I've had no significant issues. I've seen a few videos now from the AX100 and the only time I've noticed rolling shutter issues was at the very end of this last clip we're discussing.

Time will tell though, but I'm not overly concerned about it. In fact, as I stated before, I'm more concerned about the OIS than anything.

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

So Ron, would you think the XAVC bitrate is dynamic in nature on the AX100? Is this something you've observed on the AX1? I think it's true for most cameras I've used. Complex scenes see a jump in bitrate as opposed to scenes where little changes and detail is modest.

Re: When will Handycam Sony FDR-AX100 go out?
 

Most seem to be quoting mid March (seen Japan seller quote the 14th). So it shouldn't be too much longer!


I suspect we will see 4K/UHD is going to come a lot faster than any of us would expect - and cameras (and phones, and tablets, and phablets) will be coming from every direction... and at every price point possible...

For the moment, breaking the $2k price point for a standalone video camera is probably just an opening shot. over the next year, there will be plenty more fireworks...

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

Out of curiosity: in general with a 4k camera if I like to get a good HD file, is it better to rec in XAVC and to convert it into HD files or directly to rec in HD? In other words what are the differences of image quality (video) between a HD converted file and a HD file (with same camera)? Thanks

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

The instruction manual shows a recording format of XAVC-4k 3840X2160 bit rate of 60 MBPS

Re: Sony FDR-AX100
 

You'll get a sharper, more resolute HD image by starting in 4K. Further, and perhaps more importantly, you'll have an archived 4K file for when you eventually watch it in 4K...and that time will come.