PXW-X70 Highlight Handling / Dynamic Range / Ergonomics

Markus Klatt · February 12th, 2015, 01:50 PM

The X70 is only one of the 1CMOS Sony cams, which do have that sever color shift. The CX700/900 has it, the AX100, my A7S has it too - no matter, which gamma or color matrix is used. Since I do film large fireworks displays only, this is a NO GO for all Sony 1CMOS cams. I do own an EX1R 3CMOS, which is PERFECT regarding the realistic truth of fireworks colors, but all the 1CMOS cams seem to be a catastrophe - regarding color shifts at highlights.

After this thread I've tried a Tiffen T1. Because of the greenish color/darkening of the far red blocking filter the shift is slighty less, maybe 10%, but ofter color temperature correction it is again the same.

The worst are reds, especially slightly yellowish/orange reds like Calcium based colors in fireworks. They become extremly intensive orange, like orange flares although they were red, unusable, uncorrectable.

See this video, at the very beginning. Its the AX100, some lowlight red lamps at the ceiling - just compare the reflections with the colors of the lamps (sec 0:00 - 0:08):

This is just a taste of what I suffer at fireworks...

I really do fear, that the Sony FS7 is the same. 1CMOS Sony sensor and I saw a recording of the sun behind clouds. Although of course this was extreme, it really showed the same problem, very intensivly.

I do not understand how Sony can allow this for generations of different cams/sensors... It prohibits to use those cameras for any lights/highlights.

Tom Grushka · February 13th, 2015, 12:25 AM

Markus,

Wondering if you've had a chance to look at the X70 and try Paul Andregg's color tweaks, and if you think there's any improvement?

I don't have an AX100 (or any Sony cam other than the X70) and totally agree with you that these color/highlight problems are ridiculous, for any recent cam with a sensor 1/3" or larger to have.

Hoping a BIG firmware fix is coming to cross all of Sony's products and address this.

Paul Anderegg · February 13th, 2015, 01:11 AM

Yeah, the color shifting is ridiculous...........it's so bad that even after correcting in the PP settings, it can still swing wildly in hue, in either direction! I have my red dialed in on the nose, but it will shift yellow or magenta depending on saturation or exposure levels. In one past post I suggested tweaking master phase until your offending color comes into proper hue, but you don't want to leave that setting that way, adjust as and when necessary.

I shoot a lot of flames, and this camera has an annoying tendency for amber to come out with a greenish tint. Flames should not be green. :)

Paul

Markus Klatt · February 13th, 2015, 05:09 AM

Thank you both.
In A7S one can slightly reduce the shifting with the settings of "color depths" for the channels CMYRGB. The more you go towards the +7 per channel, the more you reduce the effect. But it takes only maybe 50%, so in the end even at +7 you will still have a very noticable shifting of felt 50% intensity.

From a comment by Alister Chapman I've learned, the color depth in Sony cameras increases the chrominance by the cost of decreasing the luminance (when I remember correctly). I doubt, that changing the color depth (is it possible in X70?) is suitable for realisitc day light filming. For fireworks it works, somehow, a little.

If I only would know, if one can tweak the Sony FS7 with the onboard settings, that the shifting (which I really fear for the FS7 too) does not happen or is reduced by around +90%. I immediatly would sell EX1R + A7S and get the FS7 because of 4K - since I never heard even a touch of a rumour, that Sony will publish a cam with 4K 3CMOS sensor (a PXW-X300 with 4K and e-mount would be great ;))

I am a noob at color correction, but for me it was impossible to remove the shifting of the A7S in my fireworks videos fully with Premiere or Resolve. The problem is, that it happens with different reds in different intensity - and it depends, which other colors are in the same scenes. And you have often golden sparks everywhere (the most common color because of the black powder) - how to correct orange colors at the same time?

Ron Evans · February 13th, 2015, 07:53 AM

Matthew Scott's site Matthew Scott Cinematography Blog has a good set of instruction on colour correction for several programs that you may want to look at. With most one can select a single colour and correct it. I use Edius and it it easy to select a colour range and change as described by Scott.

Ron Evans

February 12th, 2015, 01:50 PM	#31
Markus Klatt Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 169	Re: PXW-X70 Highlight Handling / Dynamic Range / Ergonomics The X70 is only one of the 1CMOS Sony cams, which do have that sever color shift. The CX700/900 has it, the AX100, my A7S has it too - no matter, which gamma or color matrix is used. Since I do film large fireworks displays only, this is a NO GO for all Sony 1CMOS cams. I do own an EX1R 3CMOS, which is PERFECT regarding the realistic truth of fireworks colors, but all the 1CMOS cams seem to be a catastrophe - regarding color shifts at highlights. After this thread I've tried a Tiffen T1. Because of the greenish color/darkening of the far red blocking filter the shift is slighty less, maybe 10%, but ofter color temperature correction it is again the same. The worst are reds, especially slightly yellowish/orange reds like Calcium based colors in fireworks. They become extremly intensive orange, like orange flares although they were red, unusable, uncorrectable. See this video, at the very beginning. Its the AX100, some lowlight red lamps at the ceiling - just compare the reflections with the colors of the lamps (sec 0:00 - 0:08): Battle of the 4K for 3K - YouTube This is just a taste of what I suffer at fireworks... I really do fear, that the Sony FS7 is the same. 1CMOS Sony sensor and I saw a recording of the sun behind clouds. Although of course this was extreme, it really showed the same problem, very intensivly. I do not understand how Sony can allow this for generations of different cams/sensors... It prohibits to use those cameras for any lights/highlights.

February 13th, 2015, 12:25 AM	#32
Tom Grushka Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 55	Re: PXW-X70 Highlight Handling / Dynamic Range / Ergonomics Markus, Wondering if you've had a chance to look at the X70 and try Paul Andregg's color tweaks, and if you think there's any improvement? I don't have an AX100 (or any Sony cam other than the X70) and totally agree with you that these color/highlight problems are ridiculous, for any recent cam with a sensor 1/3" or larger to have. Hoping a BIG firmware fix is coming to cross all of Sony's products and address this.

February 13th, 2015, 01:11 AM	#33
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: PXW-X70 Highlight Handling / Dynamic Range / Ergonomics Yeah, the color shifting is ridiculous...........it's so bad that even after correcting in the PP settings, it can still swing wildly in hue, in either direction! I have my red dialed in on the nose, but it will shift yellow or magenta depending on saturation or exposure levels. In one past post I suggested tweaking master phase until your offending color comes into proper hue, but you don't want to leave that setting that way, adjust as and when necessary. I shoot a lot of flames, and this camera has an annoying tendency for amber to come out with a greenish tint. Flames should not be green. :) Paul

February 13th, 2015, 05:09 AM	#34
Markus Klatt Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 169	Re: PXW-X70 Highlight Handling / Dynamic Range / Ergonomics Thank you both. In A7S one can slightly reduce the shifting with the settings of "color depths" for the channels CMYRGB. The more you go towards the +7 per channel, the more you reduce the effect. But it takes only maybe 50%, so in the end even at +7 you will still have a very noticable shifting of felt 50% intensity. From a comment by Alister Chapman I've learned, the color depth in Sony cameras increases the chrominance by the cost of decreasing the luminance (when I remember correctly). I doubt, that changing the color depth (is it possible in X70?) is suitable for realisitc day light filming. For fireworks it works, somehow, a little. If I only would know, if one can tweak the Sony FS7 with the onboard settings, that the shifting (which I really fear for the FS7 too) does not happen or is reduced by around +90%. I immediatly would sell EX1R + A7S and get the FS7 because of 4K - since I never heard even a touch of a rumour, that Sony will publish a cam with 4K 3CMOS sensor (a PXW-X300 with 4K and e-mount would be great ;)) I am a noob at color correction, but for me it was impossible to remove the shifting of the A7S in my fireworks videos fully with Premiere or Resolve. The problem is, that it happens with different reds in different intensity - and it depends, which other colors are in the same scenes. And you have often golden sparks everywhere (the most common color because of the black powder) - how to correct orange colors at the same time?

February 13th, 2015, 07:53 AM	#35
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: PXW-X70 Highlight Handling / Dynamic Range / Ergonomics Matthew Scott's site Matthew Scott Cinematography Blog has a good set of instruction on colour correction for several programs that you may want to look at. With most one can select a single colour and correct it. I use Edius and it it easy to select a colour range and change as described by Scott. Ron Evans