planning for 4K equipment (from camera to display)

[Ron Evans]

Piotr don't be surprised if the AX100 produces a cleaner and more detailed image than the EX1. Even in HD a scaled UHD image will definitely have more detail. Not sure if you can get a Viewsonic 27" Ultra HD LED Monitor VP2780-4K but that will do it all for you. Display Port , HDMI 2.0 etc.VP2780-4K - Stunning Ultra HD resolution - Incredible color accuracy - Preset EBU and Gamma corrections - Next generation connectivity - View up to four video sources - On my list to replace my Dell 24" I have now.

Ron Evans

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Ron,

I'm pretty sure - based on the AX100 clips I downloaded for testing - that they indeed are cleaner than those from the EX1. The noise has always been a single most noticeable shortcoming of this - otherwise excellent - cameras.

Displayed on my 1080p plasma the AX100 footage is also extremely detailed, but being 4K it must be. Didn't have an opportunity yet to see them on a large 4K resolution display - and this is going to be the final (and of course pretty important) test...

Piotr

PS Ron - how does AX1 material compare to AX100 in this regard?

[Dave Blackhurst]

I think I understand what you're asking, sort of...

First, I too was nervous about using a system refreshing at 30Hz (Seiki Cheap-o 4K TV for monitor) and initially integrated Intel graphics... no "flicker" and far less eyestrain than my previous "HD" setup, so that probably won't be an issue (though I presume you would be at 25Hz in EU? Not sure whether that additional 5Hz will do you in or not?!). I think you "should" be OK for normal use, I wouldn't give up my 39" 4K "desktop", it's very useful and usable.

The second part, not too sure - I'd guess that a clip running at 50p on a 25 Hz display would toss half the input,but that's just pure speculation... My take is that right now 30/25/24p seems like the frame rate we get for 4K (yeah, rather have 60p and yet another round of bigger fast memory cards to be purchased!).

As was hashed out on the neverending AX100 thread, it does require some adjustment when shooting. My "solution" has been to keep shutter speeds as low as possible, introducing enough motion blur into the equation that MOST of the stutter and shimmer that comes with 24-30 very SHARP detailed frames per second being displayed is eliminated - the motion blur seems to smooth out the "flip book" type effect.

When the AX100 hit, I was very interested in making the 4K jump, but budget was a big part of the equation - if it cost as much as the camera again just to do anything with the clips... it was a "NO", but I found the cheap TV "solution" to be very economical (picked up mine used, very reasonable), and the computer upgrade was overdue and not too bad. Yes, it was a "30Hz" system, but it worked fine. I recently found a gaming laptop that was powerful enough to replace the desktop, and be portable too,
it hooks into my TV solution and works fine. SO, I guess what I'm saying is it can be done, there are a few wrinkles to iron out (Intel 4K drivers are sorta "special", I'll leave it at that!), but well worth it when you see what images the camera can produce!!

[Bruce Watson]

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

...I can only purchase an entry-level UHDTV LED display without DisplaPort, and with HDMI 1.4 - only capable of 3840x2160 @ 25 Hz. Would the display be flickering when displaying 4K at 25 fps (like that from AX100 or X70)?

And finally: what would happen if I decided to go with a 4K camcorder capable of 50/60 fps, but connected my PC to such a low-refresh UHDTV only capable of 4K@25Hz (like all those entry-level ones offering only HDMI 1.4 and no DisplaPort connections)? Just what happens then?

I suspect the reason you aren't getting answers to your questions is that nobody knows, because nobody has bought such a system and tried it. You'd have to be an extremely early adopter, and I doubt many here would be willing, just like I personally am not willing. Just like I waited to upgrade to HD for HDMI 1.3 to become commonly available so that all my equipment used HDMI 1.3, I'm now waiting for 1) Rec.2020 support, and 2) HDMI 2.0 support before I even consider moving to QHD. If it can't give me pictures that exceed my existing Panny plasma 1080 screen, I don't see the point in upgrading.

OTOH, if you decide to be that extremely early adopter, I'd be very interested in hearing what you think about how your new system deals with the questions you pose above.

[Ron Evans]

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

Ron,

Ron - how does AX1 material compare to AX100 in this regard?

In good light they are very similar and clearly better than my other cameras ( NX5U , NX30U etc ) I have only shot a test of UHD with the AX100 to compare to the 30P from the AX1 and they are pretty close. I have no interest in 30P so will only use the AX100 in HD XAVC-S 60P and the AX1 QFHD 60P. The AX100 is not a low light camera though being about the same as the NX30U and not quite as good as the NX5U and only a little better than the AX1. The AX1 has a f1.6 lens like the NX5U when wide but the AX100 is only f2.8 the lens difference almost negates the larger sensor. I am not really interested in QFHD/ 4K all my projects are 1920x1080 and the interest in using a 4K camera is to crop /pan/zoom in the image which works really well.

Ron Evans

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Originally Posted by Ron Evans

I am not really interested in QFHD/ 4K all my projects are 1920x1080 and the interest in using a 4K camera is to crop /pan/zoom in the image which works really well.

Thanks Ron. Your last statement is of a great value to me, because if your crops of AX1 QFHD frame in a HD project are of such a good quality, it means the entire AX1 60p picture is. I know, because with some of my HD multicamera classical music project one of the camera is RED, shooting 4K of course, and I used those clips it the same fashion many times. However - depending of course on the size of my cropping window - the results were not so good - definitely always softer than the XDCAM EX material from the remaining EX1 cameras...

BTW, what size (in pixels) your crops are usually?

[Ron Evans]

I go into about 65% so not all the way in to a 1920x1080. EDIUS PRO 7.5 uses Lanczos 3 in the Layouter to do this and the image is close then to the image from the NX30U. It is not as good as a HD image from the AX100 but when further scaled to SD for DVD it is fine in comparison to the other cameras. For BLuray the image is still very good though. I set the AX1 and the NX30U full stage so a lot of the time the crop is just in from full stage to get the full group of actors/dancers.

I will be watching for a more cost effective 4K large sensor than the FS7 as the year progresses to give me better low light performance than the AX1 as I am sure it looses quality when at higher gains.

As far as monitors are concerned. The early 4K TV's that say they are only 25/30Hz their electronics may not be up to driving all the pixels in the display individually at the higher refresh rates so one has to ask how they manage with normal HD since all the pixels have to be driven at the refresh rate. Do they not up scale HD to the full array or do they group pixels for HD display ? There is then of course the possibility that they do no display a HD image as well as a normal HD display. Or like the early Sony TV's just have HDMI 1.4 but can actually display at the full refresh rate but just do not have HDMI 2.0. If it is just the interface then they will likely just repeat the 4K 30P image and maintain the 60hz refresh rate. Then at this point in time I would not buy a monitor that can only display 25/30Hz input as the newer TV'/monitors have all the interfaces and are able to display at their full frame rate or in the case of Sony even faster.

Ron Evans

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Thanks Ron. I did a little research, and UHDTVs that give you 4K at full refresh rate that will not ruin your bank account are (these are 50" models as I'm after this very size):

- from Panasonic: VIERA TX-50AX800E
- from Sony: KD-49X8309C

Those are EU models, but of course you can buy them anywhere under slightly different names. The Panasonic - apart from HDMI 2.0 - even has DisplayPort!

[Mark OConnell]

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

Absolutely agree, Jack. However - even though I do consider cameras capable of 50/60 fps (like Z100, for one) - they still only deliver 4k with 4:2:0 color so I wouldn't be losing much in terms of color space ...

The Z100 is 4:2:2 10 bit.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

True - I stand corrected.

[Ron Evans]

Z100 is only 10 bit 4:2:2 in intra frame recording for Long GOP it is just like the AX1 8 bit 4:2:0. At 10bit 4:2:2 50/60P the Z100 will consume a 64G card in 12 mins !!!

Ron Evans

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Ron, have all the announced updates to Z100 fw come out already or are we still waiting for some new format etc?

[Ron Evans]

To my knowledge both the Z100 and my AX1 still have a USB interface that does not work. Not sure what else is supposed to come.

Ron Evans

[Mark OConnell]

Originally Posted by Ron Evans

Z100 is only 10 bit 4:2:2 in intra frame recording for Long GOP it is just like the AX1 8 bit 4:2:0. At 10bit 4:2:2 50/60P the Z100 will consume a 64G card in 12 mins !!!

Ron Evans

I get 13 minutes. It's a helluva codec.

[Ron Evans]

Originally Posted by Mark OConnell

I get 13 minutes. It's a helluva codec.

Just quoting what I saw. They say about 50 mins for my FDR-AX1 on 64G and I get 56mins normally too. With enough light I am sure Z100 and AX1 give good images but I will look for a better performing camera in low light as all my shooting is in the theatre so the AX1 spends most of its time with gain greater than 12db. My NX5U set up next to the AX1 is at -3db for the same scene !!!

Ron Evans