Re: New Sony PXW-Z150
 

I know the "no SLOG" part is a bad thing....and I agree when you consider a cheap RX10-II has SLOG-2 with the same image sensor.

But the..."It has the dyanmic range of a wet fart....."

Is that a little or allot???

With my imagination, I can see it both ways. ;-)

CT

Re: New Sony PXW-Z150
 

If I remember correctly, the AX100 and X70 suffered highlight handling issues. Maybe that's what they're referring to?

Re: New Sony PXW-Z150
 

I have an AX100 and the newer AX53 and they both have highlight issues if you expose auto. I tend to use AE shift of at least -0.5 or even -0.7 when in auto. It is much easier to bring up the shadows in post than loose the highlights. I have zebras at 85%. They both put my NX5U to shame even at 21db of gain in terms of resolution and noise level.

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony PXW-Z150
 

The first chapter (42 minutes) of my new Z150 and NX100 training video is online for viewing.

Re: New Sony PXW-Z150
 

I see chapter 1, very good job. Maybe before I decide to buy this camera to rent your video.

P.S. I laugh a lot when you said “event I won’t recommended, suppose that you lost your mind, and you want to run any of these three functions (gain, white balance, shutter) in automatic…" :respect:

Re: New Sony PXW-Z150
 

Nice job on this video Doug. As always, they are well spoken and are very clear, concise and to the point.

I had to laugh pretty loud too on your "If you have lost your mind running in automatic" comment. (no exact quote)

Not sure if you were actually trying to be funny or serious but it sure made me chuckle too.

Good job.

CT

Re: New Sony PXW-Z150
 

Oh, I was being dead serious! The words "professional" and "automatic" never go together.

Re: New Sony PXW-Z150
 

Ehh....although i generally agree with your statement, I don't exactly agree 100% of the time. Auto shutter will be an ugly thing but locking that with auto iris or auto focus at times can be very useful. Depends on lighting conditions and other factors, of course. If you know your camera well enough, you tend to say "yeah this is safe for AF" or "there is no way in hell I'd trust AF for this" I might use AF 20% of the time and I can say I have a track record of knowing how NOT to get burned by it.

Auto IRIS is also useful at times too provided you have +/- EV ready to compensate. Auto gain with a cap set is still yet another useful tool on occasion.

You don't have to "lose your mind" to use AUTO at times...isn't that a little "extreme"?

LMAO!

Here is a better funny statement I'll throw out:

Any "professional" would have to "lose their mind" to manually operate a "fly by wire" lens with no real calibrated markings!!

There....that's even better.

OR!....

"Fly by wire" lenses and "PROFESSIONAL" don't go together??? ;-)

CT

Re: New Sony PXW-Z150
 

Well, if by making a bold statement I cause people stop and consider if using automatic (any function) is really necessary or not, I have done my job. Stop and think, that's all I ask. Some people might still go ahead and use auto anyway in some situations, but using automatic should not be automatic. There are a lot people who think they must use automatic or are scared to try manual settings. I want to encourage them to throw away the crutches and start running. I want them shout "I've been healed!" and never look back as they wrestle control away from the camera's evil clutches. Believe me, if I've manage to get through my whole career not using automatic for anything, then clearly it is within anyone's ability to do the same.

Re: New Sony PXW-Z150
 

I didn't find Doug's "lose your mind" offensive as I understood the point he was making by not letting a camera do everything automatically, being a professional also means using the right equipment for a job. Not sure if it is the case but if the Z150 would have a fly by wire focus system then you don't use the camera for controlled focuspulls but you use a camera that has a mechanical lens with hard stops. Some automatic aids like Canons dual pixel AF technology can be used however to help maintain focus in a better way in certain conditions then you could do manually, especially on moving subjects towards the camera and to say that this would not be professional is a bit silly ofcourse, unless you would prefer out of focus footage because you cannot keep up manually or because your fly by wire lens plays tricks on you and messes the focus up while you turn it. I would say in very specific situations certain auto functions could do the job better then you could it manually, it's up to you to choose when to use it to guarantee the best results, that's being a professional as well.

Re: New Sony PXW-Z150
 

I see your point Doug however there are some real advantages to automatic operation in lots of things. There was a time when formula 1 race cars were full manual until to get more performance computers took over. No way a driver can change gear as fast as a computer or manage power output clutch control and gear selection to stop wheels spin etc. This even true for motorcycles now, don't spin the wheel or raise the front end on takeoff but make it exiting for the user. So the driver becomes a controller of the computer not in full manual control. Same for flying commercial and certainly military aircraft. The camera designers spent lots of time, just like the F1 designers to squeeze that last drop of performance out of the electronics and lens especially of consumer cameras and although I agree with you that running manual is commendable and something to learn it may not give the best performance for most people. My wife shoots with me with a AX100 which I set up for her so that she only has to focus ( manual, but touch focus ) zoom and work the AE shift control watching the zebras. I have fixed white balance, shutter speed and gain limit. I am sure you are aware that in AE shift the Sony's can get gain and iris values that you cannot get manually on the consumer and prosumer models that I am sure were carefully chosen to optimize performance for the lens position. Much like the paddle wheel gear positions on a CVT car automatic that are fixed position on what is a continuous gear transmission.

Lastly professional to me means you get paid doesn't mean that person is good at it.

This is not a criticism of you Doug your training videos and examples are superb.

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony PXW-Z150
 

Ok....let's get brutality honest with ourselves and the industry here.....

What is our ultimate goal? Perfect focus on the subjects we want, the depth of field we want and the exact exposure we want. Right? It's how we want our end product to look. "How" we get to that perfect end product is not that important....as long as you hit your marks! Full auto, manual or any combination of the two.

Now....it's true, running full manual is what we need more often than not to get there. But hey, sometimes auto settings CAN be a great tool too. Lemme tell you, the FS5's auto ND is pretty damn FUN!

Anyhoo....let's be honest. Automatic anything is looked down upon as being "amature". As PROs we see somebody using an auto setting and we asume they "don't know what they are doing". Or....we asume that person is too "dumb" about cameras to handle focus, iris or shutter speeds. We also think much more highly of ourselves because we DO understand all these things.

It's a funny stereotype that we ALL have in the industry. Admit it. It's true. Look in the mirror. You and I are guilty...all of us! Lol

I, myself?...I would never be caught DEAD in AF mode...ever! Not even if I was shooting test footage of my cat sleeping that was I going to delete in 5 minutes!!

Ok, the truth? Ok...if I looked around and saw that I was by myself and nobody was looking at me, maybe I'd run AF if I was shooting a 14mm wide landscape on a bright day at f.11 and a deep depth of field. Most AF will nail that perfectly without any trouble. Shhhhh...that's only if nobody was lookin'.

Doug is right to tell people to get off auto. I absolutely back him up on that. But buy saying "you have lost your mind" to run in auto?....thats still a very comedic statement. It's not "offensive" in any way...it's just a goofy and over the top way to say it!

CT

Re: New Sony PXW-Z150
 

He was referring to "all auto" and then I would agree, the more auto functionality you start to add, like auto focus, auto iris, autoshutter, auto nd and auto whitebalance the more can and will go wrong, if you shoot in a all auto setting meaning letting the camera handle everything, then you don't care about how the image looks, you just want to get the shot.
Take that auto nd from the fs5, what happens if you point the camera to a bright window indoors, will the auto nd kick in and expose for the window, meaning underexpose? If that would be the case I don't see the point of a auto nd because there is a high risk the camera will expose wrong. Canons dual pixel AF otoh I would gladly use under very specific situations where I know it will perform better then what I could achieve manually.

Re: New Sony PXW-Z150
 

Yeah, the FS5's Auto ND is a fun gimmic. I mean, I'm more about riding the wheel on it. Lock your gain. Lock your shutter at, let's say 180degrees, open way up on a fast prime to get a really thin DoF...then just ride that sick electronic ND to get the exposure you want. Letting that go to AUTO and riding the +/- EV could get the same effect.

Re: New Sony PXW-Z150
 

It won't, just try it and shoot indoors and pan from left to right towards a very bright source like a window, the camera will adjust instantly and you have to compensate using the EV, only if you don't want the exposure to change at all your shot is scr*wed. That happens when you let a camera decide what the exposure should be.

Re: New Sony PXW-Z150
 

Certainly. I'm just saying you can ride the "auto" logic with +/- EV control over the ND filter. Yes, it's dynamic and so is your response to it. You can certainly roll the density (electronically) as you get near the window and back when you get away.

Now.....a fun moral question for all of us:

You have a Sony FS5 with your grip wheel that spins for +/- EV. So you can manually ride +2 or -2 stops with your right index finger on the grip.

Your left hand is pulling manual focus.
Your shutter is manually locked.
Your ISO is manually locked
Your IRIS is AUTO but you are MANUALLY riding the +/- EV wheel with your right hand and carefully controlling the exposure you want. (IRIS is the only option the camera logic has left if ND is off)

Boom!....how do we critique this fictional cameraman and his abilities? Where does he belong in our industry and how do we judge his status among us?

1.) Is he running in "AUTO" or "MANUAL"?
2.) Is he considered a "professional" or not?
3.) Has he truly "lost his mind" for doing this?

My vote is that he is running a "quasi-manual" mode. Yes, his camera logic will adapt to his conditions and move that IRIS around. However, if he has the ability to force his will over the camera's exposure logic and manually choose the exposure he really wants. (within the provided +/-EV range)

Is he "professional" I dunno....I could be either in my book. If he makes great videos and makes lots of bank doing that, than he's a "pro"....right?

Has he "lost his mind"? C'mon...he may be "lazy" at worst but I doubt he's "crazy"...He's letting the camera get 90% of the way there while he "nudges" it the rest of the way there.

Sorry guys. I'm just being very light hearted about this. It does tickle me. ;-)

CT

Re: New Sony PXW-Z150
 

You are not carefully controlling anything, the only thing you will be doing is constantly battling your camera's choice what the exposure should be and that fight will be visible in your film and in my window example, something I have to deal with a lot when shooting indoors at weddings, will scr*w up your shots time and time again. The only way for me to have shots with consistent exposure at all times is when I do it manually.

Re: New Sony PXW-Z150
 

It sound like you are saying the your camera's auto logic is "always wrong". Yes, it easily could be "right" in a room with people waiting for a cake and "wrong" when the cake arises with candles on it. Every situation is different.

If you want "constant" exposure? For sure stay far away from and auto function. You "might" only benifit from using AUTO something if you "dont" want constant exposure. If you want "adapting" exposure.

If you are shooting something so chaoticly changing like...I dunno a night club with flashing strobe lights. You might be screwed either in full manual or partial auto.

Every scene is different. I'm saying full manual is your most accurate way to get exposure but it's not to say that AUTO something does not have a use either.

There are a million things that you can only shoot 100% manual. Just did a rock concert. All 5 cameras were 100% manual. I had my Shogun on mine cause I knew I'd need all my exposure and focus tools ready for full exposure "war".

That's totally different than shooting a slow changing birthday party inside a wealthy clients home.

Everything is different. There is no...."there is only ONE way to do everything and all the rest is wrong" in this industry.

Re: New Sony PXW-Z150
 

It depends on your intent for the video. Do you want it to look like a person sees in the situation ? Our eyes react very quickly. When I shoot theatre my camera is full manual, my wife is semi auto (manual spot focus, AE shift, locked white balance, shutter speed and limit on gain ), fixed full stage camera set up the same way. That way I can choose which is best for a particular scene change for example. With the latest camera the AX53 used as an unattended full stage ( set up like my wife's ) it will happily manage lights going to full black stage and back up to full lights with little overshoot even if the lights are really flashed on. Being honest I often use one of the other cameras as I am too slow to catch a very wide change. True that AE shift may make a dark scene a little lighter or bright a little darker but that is something our eyes do too and since the camera has a limited range it is better that the output can be seen rather than be exactly as presented.

As I said in previous post professional is someone who gets paid and amateur doesn't and to me has no bearing on their competence or quality of their product.

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony PXW-Z150
 

Thread moved with re-direct from Industry News to Sony 4K Ultra HD Handhelds.

Re: New Sony PXW-Z150
 

I'm pretty neutral on AUTO anything. I can't say I love the idea or that I hate it either.

However, I CAN say this. If anybody is familiar with the Sony A6300's phase detection AF. It's touted as the fastet and most acurate in the world.

I took mine out to my backyard over the weekend and chased my two running dogs in the day with a very shallow depth of field. I MANUALY pulled focus on my crazy dogs running circles at full throttle. Then I switched to AUTO focus and let the A6300 do the same. This went back and forth for 20 min.

The result? Altough I think I did pretty darn well considering the chaos, the A6300 averaged FASTER response than I could. Sure, it missed and so did I, but the A6300 nailed lightning fast and was able to hold tight as the dogs ran at me....better than I could.

I was shocked!

A6300....this is not your dad's AF anymore. I'm sure that more of this is comming. Get ready to actually like it.

CT

Re: New Sony PXW-Z150
 

Tend to agree Cliff. It really depends on the project. If the subject is story being told as film style then full manual with all the shallow depth of field etc will end up being needed to get the effect. However if it is an event with lots of people running around etc then a consumer camera in full auto tracking many faces and adjusting for focus and exposure will be hard to beat if the object is to have everyone in focus and exposed well. When I shoot the family it is now the AX53 in full auto with full face detection, stabilization 60P etc. Just like you with the dogs there is no way I can compete in manual to give the impression of "being there ".

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony PXW-Z150
 

In a lot of situations I have to shoot in I can only say yes, it's almost always wrong and that applies to all existing camera's, not mine only. I don't even shoot in extreme situations, just indoor and outdoor shooting throughout a wedding day, letting the camera handle exposure and me correcting with EV will be an endless battle trying to get it right, everytime a person crosses the frame or if a brighter light appears in the background the exposure will jump up and down and no way to counteract that fast enough without being very noticeable.

Using the EV can work well enough in very controlled situations, like on a unmanned static camera that doesn't move during it's recording, if you then would have changes in light with a appearing and re appearing sun and if you have no way to control the camera then autoexposure with a EV change depending if the camera under- or overexposes is your best bet to get home with usable footage.

If it's a camera that you control however, there is no reason whatsoever to use a autoexposure and ev function, my full manual control will always result in better results.

Re: New Sony PXW-Z150
 

Well Noa? I certainly cant speak for you or anybody else. But I generally have no problem getting the exposure I want from full MANUAL or partial AUTO too. After 25 years of shooting, I'm pretty good at getting what I want from either. I know when I can and when I wont use them.

One thing I never had fun doing on my EX1 was zooming with my right hand on the zoom rocker and using my left hand middle finger on the focus ring while simultaneously resting my thumb on the iris ring and riding that in real time. For years it felt like a funny circus trick. Plus, just juggling the alternating thoughts..."iris, focus, iris, focus, iris, focus, iris, focus,....CUT!,.....whew!" This is not to even mention all the shot framing ideas that goes on in your head during all that thinking and processing.

CT

Re: New Sony PXW-Z150
 

Noa, with some theatre and dance shows the light changes are very fast and wide. I can almost guaranty manual will not be as good as auto in some of these circumstances. As Cliff mentioned trying to zoom, focus, switch gain position and move iris at the same time is doomed. Most of the time I run my NX5U in full manual but have a button set for AE shift and when things get a little crazy switch iris and gain to auto and engage the button. WB and shutter speed are always manual. If I do not do this I just end up using the output from one of the fixed auto cameras anyway !!! Normally I try to run the NX5U at around F4 since this provides the best quality image and with this iris I do not have to worry about the lens ramping when zooming. Gain is chosen to achieve this on one of the 3 positions. For a show I usually find out range of lighting and set gain switch positions values before hand. However there is always some scene or certainly in a dance show that this will not work. So I set a gain limit in auto as well. So I get 4 gain values to choose from. However on the NX5U there is smooth gain switching on the gain switches but not when you return to auto !!! I set iris then to auto ( which normally then does not change if I am close, ) then gain to auto with the AE button engaged. Just small blip and can work this way until I can go back to manual. On the LCD I can see the values the camera has chosen and set the gain switch so that when come out of auto gain nothing changes. Pressing the iris button to go back into manual also leads to no change and I am then back out of AE shift and into full manual again !! To me this is using all the capabilities of the camera to achieve my objective.

All the stuff I do is shows so cameras run for about 1 hour or so at a time with no breaks until act or show finishes. This could be 2 hours and 40 mins !!! Typically gain at 3db will meet most of the shows however I have had a show where the data code has shown gain used from -6db to +15db ( my gain limit setting ) I had switches set for 0, 3 and 9db !!! During the show I even had indication to set ND1 !! Only comments from my wife ( using AX100 ) was she had to turn the wheel ( AE shift ) more than normal !!! In AE shift the camera is not constrained to the fixed values for gain and I think this is a big advantage. It's how smooth gain switching works the camera slowly moves gain from one value to the other. These intermediate values are not selectable in manual. Just like a CVT transmission on a car. The automatic uses all the gear ratios available and the trick paddle wheels for the driver just select fixed values to make the driver think they are changing gear !!!

Ron Evans