NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

Messing around some more with the good old ITU709 color mode on my DSC chart and vectorscope. I have some settings I would like to share, see if you guys like them better than the old PP's. Here are the color settings used and then vectorscope images of the raw chart at 100% saturation then with saturation boosted to 200% to mimic 2x vectorscope gain...it's a box thing. Bottom two pics are the STOCK ITU709 Matrix with no color corrections, and PP OFF settings for comparison. :-)

Black Level: 0
Gamma: ITU709
Black Gamma: off
Knee: Manual, 87.5%, -2
Color Mode: IYU709 Matrix
Saturation: 0
Color Phase: -2
Color Depth: R +2, G -3, B -1, C +1, M -1, Y-4
Color Correction: Revision 1&2
Mem1 Color: 10, 24, 0
Mem1 Revision: +6, -3
Mem2 Color: 19, 13, 31
Mem2 Revision: -15, +4
WB Shift: off for push to white/LB-CC [MG-GR] +1 for manual set WB
Detail, manual default settings

Please pop these in and tell me how you like them, and if you notice any oddities in color. Mem1 is adjustment for RED, Mem2 is adjustment for GREEN.

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

Hey Paul,

It is great you post so many Picture Profiles. Just wanted to let you know I had to stop using your profile on my Z150. Colors were all over the place with different light outside lighting I shoot on the water. The blues were really hard to get right, red was OK, but at times off, and green was electric. So I have gone back to a PP from Doug's video.

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

Which profile "other" Paul? I am always looking for feedback and specific issues...as I shoot 99.9% of my stuff at night at high gain, I seldom have the chance to sort daylight color inconsistencies.

My current task is to figure out what levels the COLOR DEPTH hues should be on a waveform monitor. I lost the little chart that came with my DSC Camalign, telling what IRE they should be shown at. Color depth specifically raises or lowers video level of a color on the waveform, not saturation, so makes the colors appear lighter or darker. These are really hard to mess with, because you can get extremely noticeable NOISE if you push these too far in either direction.

Paul

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

HI Paul,

Same problem with both of the PP below.

I have finalized my "I don't think I can improve upon this any further" favorite "direct to air" custom picture profile. I have tested this in daylight, dawn, and night, and have not been able to identify any color oddities or levels issues. I have vetted this out fully in 4K mode, but these settings should work well in HD modes as well. So here they are..........and these are a massive imrpovement over my original REC709 settings.

BLACK LEVEL: 0
GAMMA: CINEMATONE 1
BLACK GAMMA: HIGH +7 DAY / LOW +7 NIGHT
KNEE: AUTO 90% HIGH SENSITIVITY
COLOR MODE CINEMATONE 1
SATURATION: 0
COLOR PHASE 0
COLOR DEPTHS: 0
COLOR CORRECTION: COLOR REVISION
MEMORY SELECTION: 1&2
MEMORY 1 COLOR
PHASE: 9
PHASE RANGE: 4
SATURATION: 0
MEMORY 1 REVISION
PHASE: +8
SATURATION: 0
MEMORY 2 COLOR
PHASE: 18
PHASE RANGE: 7
SATURATION: 0
MEMORY 2 REVISION
PHASE: -15
SATURATION: 0
WB SHIFT
FILTER TYPE: LB-CC
LB [COLOR TEMP]: 0
CC [MG/GR]: +1 (you can try this at 0, go +1 if anything looks a little green)
R GAIN: 0
B GAIN: 0
DETAIL
LEVEL: 0
MANUAL SET: OFF




So, below is my current working set, with an alternate for the color 2 correction. Please try these settings out and help me confirm they work well in daylight as well as mixed lighting. As they adjust/change the RED and YELLOW colors, that would be what you should point at to see issues. I am having the most issues with getting yellow firefighter jackets to look proper. Also, the orange used for Sony Pro boxes just looks odd, but getting that orange to look correct makes yellow look very off. Feel free to mess with the phase adjustments in each color, as you can see in real time how even a single number increment of change can become a very visible variation in the hue of a color!

Gamma: ITU709
Color mode: PRO
Color Phase: -1
Color Correction: Revision 1&2 1 = red, 2 = yellow
Mem 1 Color: 10, 4, 0 Mem 1 Revision: +8, 0
Mem 2 Color: 13, 9, 0 Mem 2 Revision: +8, 0 (alternate 15, 4, 0 / +4, 0)
WB Shift: LB-CC, MG/GR, +1 for Z150, +2 for X70 (this can be considered optional)

I find that in every PP I have calibrated, the red always looks correct at 10, 4, 0, +8, 0 with a -1 phase shift. Remember, on the color wheel, + means clockwise to the right, - means counterclockwise to the left, towards the next color over on the vectorscope.

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

I had been using the PRO one for some time, but wanted to tae another crack at the ITU709 color matrix. :-)

Paul

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

In "around my room" testing, I am noticing yellows are a tad too "lemon/lime" greenish, and red can push a bit pink when overexposed a bit. The problem is of course that you can only adjust 2 colors on these cameras...like picking which 2 fingers you would want to be able to curl, and the rest would never be able to move. Will work on this a bit more...trying to pull green down to it's vector seems to be tugging yellow too far in that direction.

Paul

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

Here are my settings. No green pulsing in black/dark video when tested at 33dB video gain. Settings are for when you don't want to do any color correction in post.

Black Level: -2
Gamma: STANDARD
Black Gamma: On with RANGE at HIGH and LEVEL at -7
Knee: Auto with MAX POINT at 90.0% and SENSITIVITY at HIGH
Color Mode: STILL
Saturation: +3
Color Phase: +3
Color Depth: R 0, G 0, B 0, C 0, M 0, Y 0
Color Correction: REVISION 1&2
Mem1 Color: 30, 16, 0
Mem1 Revision:-9, +1
Mem2 Color: 5, 10, 0
Mem2 Revision: +3, +10
WB Shift: Auto WB & Manual WB - Filter Type LB-CC, LB [Color Temp] -1, CC [MG-GR] +1 and Push to Manual WB - Filter Type R-B, R Gain 0, B Gain 0
Detail is off, default settings

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

Have you played with STILL gamma mode? It acts almost like a strong KNEE bringing highlights down, mids stay at REC709, and blacks (pedestal) is dropped a bit, but not as in a black crush black gamma way. Looks pretty and very clean for some scenes. :)

Paul

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

Thanks for the post guys.

For me Doug's settings are working fantastic. I am 2 or 3 ND's most of the time and with his settings I do not color correct, just brightness and contrast. Same thing when I used his PP's on F800, PMW-500, and F55, and FS7. So I think I will stick there for now.

Appreciate all the great input.

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

Yes Paul,

Still is where I am now.

Re: NEW (AND IMPROVED) REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

OK, took another stab at this, starting from scratch, going more by what looks more off to the eye rather than what looks more off on the scope. So this set, I tried to stay with no master PHASE alterations, or COLOR DEPTH changes, and modified RED for Memory 1 and BLUE for Memory 2. I am more pleased with this thaN the settings in post one up above. The "around my room" test showed good results, so ignore or disregard the first post settings Here are the settings and 1x and 2x scope pics...DSC chart owners will note the hue of the blue patch is pleasingly violet...that is actually the color of the patch on the Camalign chart, go figure.

Black Level: 0
Gamma: ITU709
Black Gamma: off
Knee: Manual, 87.5%, -2
Color Mode: ITU709 Matrix
Saturation: 0
Color Phase: 0
Color Depth: R 0, G 0, B 0, C 0, M 0, Y-0
Color Correction: Revision 1&2
Mem1 Color: 10, 3, 0
Mem1 Revision: +4, 0
Mem2 Color: 31, 2, 0
Mem2 Revision: 0, -15
WB Shift: off for push to white/LB-CC [MG-GR] +1 for manual set WB
Detail, manual default settings

I would do more in depth, or will, a week from now, as I am on vacation from the field. :)

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

STILL Gamma mode crushes the black level too much unless you're not talking about the X70.

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

From looking at the waveform when toggled back and forth from STILL GAMMA, it appeared the black level dipped almost or into superblacks, but mids stayed the same. It looked to my eye that the black levels were pulled won, and the highlights as well, with the mids staying the in the middle. My understanding of black crushing would be to compress the lower 1/3 of the video signal into itself, but STILL GAMMA just appeared to stretch it down past 0IRE. It may be a good alternative to black gamma crush and heavy KNEE settings, worth peeping a test clip.

Paul.

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

Thanks. This is the BEST profile I have observed. Looks great indoors and outdoors. Nice!!!!

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

The newest one Lou?

Black Level: 0
Gamma: ITU709
Black Gamma: off
Knee: Manual, 87.5%, -2
Color Mode: ITU709 Matrix
Saturation: 0
Color Phase: 0
Color Depth: R 0, G 0, B 0, C 0, M 0, Y-0
Color Correction: Revision 1&2
Mem1 Color: 10, 3, 0
Mem1 Revision: +4, 0
Mem2 Color: 31, 2, 0
Mem2 Revision: 0, -15
WB Shift: off for push to white/LB-CC [MG-GR] +1 for manual set WB
Detail, manual default settings

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

I will try Paul's next.


The one above with the lower parameters is the best so far to my eye.

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

Paul, I have used so many of your updates in my X70s, I have lost track. Please repost the LATEST and greatest!

BTW, to my eyes, each successor has been an improvement.

Many, many thanks!

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 19, 2017)
 

This is my current working set October 19, 2017. 19 October 2017 for you weird 50Hz shooters :-P

I am starting to put a date on these so that it might be easier to ignore older profiles.

Black Level: 0
Gamma: ITU709
Black Gamma: off
Knee: Manual, 87.5%, -2
Color Mode: ITU709 Matrix
Saturation: 0
Color Phase: 0
Color Depth: R 0, G 0, B 0, C 0, M 0, Y-0 (woking on updating these)
Color Correction: Revision 1&2
Mem1 Color: 10, 3, 0
Mem1 Revision: +4, 0
Mem2 Color: 31, 2, 0
Mem2 Revision: 0, -15
WB Shift: off for push to white/LB-CC [MG-GR] +1 for manual set WB
Detail, manual default settings

I will be working on the color depths a bit, difficult since they can cause major noise issues if you push them too far. This current set is a very simple one consisting of only two color correction adjustments. You can easily see if they improve the stock ITU709 PP for you by just toggling color revision off and back on in the menu.

Paul

Paul

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

Paul, that is great!

Your oldest groupee.

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

Anyone know who admins this forum? Would be nice to have a Picture profile sticky like they do on the other camera model forums.

Paul

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

I put the camera back on the scope (waveform) to see if the color depth settings could be improved, but I really didn't see anything wrong with them, so I left them as default 0's. Shot some footage tonight, not seeing anything off, reds, yellows, blues, skin tone, all look accurate. The settings listed do look a bit less saturated than I would prefer for direct to air, but am very satisfied with the new PP.

Paul

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

Here is a quick scene I shot with the new PP. I forgot how noisy and ugly the X70 is compared to my old Z150!! Let me know if anything looks off to you. The red LED's change hue from slightly magenta to true red depending on angle...weird...

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

Looks really good to me- amazing in such crappy lighting

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

Looks great with the exception of the noise you mentioned...... Thanks, Ray

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

I always felt....but I dont "know" this.....that adjusting picture profiles on these rec709 Sony cameras only modifies an existing rec709 gamma mapping from the sensor.

Get it? I dont know but its like we are changing and trying to get more dynamic range from an image that was already capped on the readout mapping source.

We know Slog is completely different. This gamma curve is created from the FULL sensor readout first and then sent down the pipe for processing.

I dont know for sure but it just "seems" like X70 and other models profiles and knees are being done to an already finished rec709 image.

CT

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

My picture profiles are basically COLOR CORRECTION modifiers only, they pretty much keep all the other settings at default, except KNEE.

Paul

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

Paul, that is a great explanation!

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

Paul,

I went back to your PP since I found my camera was in HG2, Color Mode BT 2020, not Cinematone 1 or the ITU709. Sorry for the confusion, user error.

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

But there is just too much noise with so sticking with Doug's that I changed a bit.

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

Too much noise when color correction only settings are turned on?

Paul

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

Not sure what type of noise but it is pretty bad. I keep wondering if my camera is not right since the new firmware upgrade I did in the Fall.

I can post a couple of clips tomorrow, gone for the night now.

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

I stopped playing with the COLOR DEPTH settings...you can get excessive and horrible noise if these are messed with...mine are all set to 0 now. By horrible, I mean looks like paint bubbled off color with a blowtorch.

Paul

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

Paul, I agree on the color depth, I have not changed those and rarely ever have on a camera.

I think it might be the detail setting. You have it at 0 and other profiles I use have it at -5 to -7. I will take a few clips with everything else the same and try to confirm this could be the problem.

When I take these clips they are handheld with some purposeful camera movement, stabilization off, on, active during the clip. To me this is brings out the problem in the Z150 in UHD 8-bit, 420. I guess I could also check it in HD since 10-bit 422 is so much better. But I have used UHD on the Z150 for a year with decent results, but most of it has been locked down which is so much easier on the codec.

Will give this a look now and see what I find and post a clip or two if you are interested?

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

Yeah, not really specifically recommending the entire PP, but more the color correction settings, detail, knee, black gamma etc, are all settings that will not affect colors. I shoot 720p news, so my detail settings need to be a little more robust for broadcast.

Paul

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

OK, a few more tries all inside since it is whiteout outside.

Detail makes a small difference but not enough to be concerned. What I have found is the codec at 8-bit 420 is a problem. I am stressing it with these test and doing a 10-bit 422 1080 proved my point.

Since most of my shooting over the last few years has been F55, then FS7, I have been use to the 10-bit 422 with higher bit rates. No worry, the Z150 is a great little camera and I will keep matching it to the FS7 and now adding a GH5.

So Paul your PP is fine, sorry for the confusion, but nice to know.

Will post a clip to show todays few short test.

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

As suspected the compression removed most of the noise. But I still have four clips where two show the problem in UHD, one worse then the other, which I think is PP since everything else is the same.

I am only seeing the problem in UHD. This is not a scientific test, just me trying to reproduce real-world problem I had on the last job, where the Z150 was not locked down as usual, and a crew member used the camera handheld as I shot with a different cam.

Still very happy about this purchase 12 months ago, and will be bringing it on all jobs again this year. Now a Z150 cam with 10bit, 422, 400Mbps I am in.

Link to clips

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

In UHD, detail level of 0 is still pretty sharpened up...anything over 0 and you will start seeing lots of artifacts on a UHD TV monitor. Don't forget there is a crispenning menu function which will control the luminance level that detail is applied to, so that you can avoid dark and grainy shadows and dark areas from having sharpening applied to video noise.

Paul

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

Thanks Paul,

I agree even with 1080 detail at 0 is still high. The clips with less problems has the detail at -7. And I think that is a bit soft so I am finding -4 is my best option.

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

I think all the HLG and Slog option in my factory default Z90 PP's are set to -7 out of the box! Assuming they expect people to be shooting UHD with these.

Paul

Re: NEW REC709 Picture Profile (Oct 2017)
 

Paul, that makes perfect sense to have it at -7 in SLOG. How is the SLOG at 8-bit? The 1" sensor on my drone with DLOG is not worth it.