Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Ah this is what I thought you would say.

Keep Having Fun Cliff,

Paul out with a big smile on my face

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

I'm all for testing things for oneself, but one of the points of a forum like this is to save people a lot of time going over the same ground. If I'm hiking and another hiker coming the other way tells me the trail is blocked a couple of miles ahead, I do not need to continue going down the path to see for myself. Well, I have gone down the S-LOG path and my advice is to turn back now and save yourself some time. I am an experienced S-LOG user with my F55, FS7, FS5, etc. and I know how to do serious grading in Resolve. So my advice to my fellow hikers coming behind me is that the road ahead is blocked and they should seek a different path to get to the same destination. In fact, that other path is actually shorter and and easier, so why fight it?

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Paul - If you can find a way to fit all 14 or 16 stops (or 20 stops) into a "normal" contrast into rec709 gamma curve. I think we'd all love to see that. They have a name for this. It's called logarithmic gamma "compression". This is "why" we NEED log curves...and the reason why they look horrible in log.

They don't look "flat" for the fun of it, they look flat because "that" trick is what made all that dynamic range even possible to begin with in rec709.

Remember, SLog-3 and VLog are 16 stop curves based on Cineon. This is why 14 stops leaves unused headroom on the top and bottom of that curve from a 14 stop camera. It's 16 stops "compressed" inside 6-7 stops of rec709. It looks delightfully horrible!

You have to appreciate "contrast",..the "distance" between the top of your wave form and the bottom of your wave form and all the mid tones in between. Rec709 just doesn't have the "distance" to cover 16 stops worth of brightness in it's "normal" calibrated high contrast.

What is wrong with this explanation? Am I saying or wording it wrong?

CT

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

I appreciate that Doug. I sincerely do. But you have to understand that there are other people that have a different opinion of that hiking trail you just came back from. If Alister Chapman (who is no idiot) and many other people tell me that trail isn't THAT bad and that you could get around the trail block with a short detour. Now we have a difference of many "opinions" about that same trail. (a NORMAL thing in hiking!) I have used 8bit Slog-2 myself and have had "good" success with it. Yes, I shoot 10bit most of the time today because I have six cameras and two can do 10bit, 4k Slog and Vlog. If I "only" had a Z90, I'd carefully use Slog-2 in certain situations.

Even Sony, the people that designed these gamma curves believes it's useful to add to the camera. So your opinion goes directly against theirs too. This is all fine. Each of us is NOT the "be all-end all" judge on camera technology. None of us are. And it would be arrogant to push that idea. (not saying you are doing this)

I was told rolling shutter cameras are "garbage" and to only use global shutter cameras...maybe he is right! But rolling shutter cameras WORK for "me"...not him....but for "me" they do. The guy was just a high end camera "snob"...but how could I say he was "wrong"? Hell,...I'd love to have a rolling shutter camera too.

This debate goes on in forums aground the world and countless YouTube camera guys year after year.... 8bit Slog, "yes" or "no"? I say..."maybe"...at times if you need it"

Doug, you are one voice of many...

CT

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Where's the footage from you or Alister to prove those claims? Nothing? I rest my case.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

It is silly for me to post footage to show how awful something is. Anything can me made to look awful if someone wants to make a point or simply doesn't know what the hell they are doing. I am asking YOU to show me something that proves S-LOG on the Z90 is better than shooting on REC709. Choose any subject you want, any contrast conditions, anything at all, and show us once and for all that S-LOG is better than any PP you want to choose from 1 - 6, even though I don't think any of those PP's truly take advantage of what the camera can do . Prove it.

BTW, I never once said it was bad because it was 8-bit. Shoot 10-bit HD for all I care, it is the camera itself that performs poorly in the S-LOG mode. If you had tested it you would have seen it, just as I have. And if you haven't seen it, then I suggest that you have not taken the time to shoot A vs. B identical footage with a custom profile. I have done all those things with two different Z90's on multiple occassions -- even though you would prefer to call me a liar. This whole conversation is ridiculous. Have you noticed that Alister doesn't post on forums anymore? He and I have discussed his reasons why he has mostly stepped away, and I am starting to think he has the right idea. Why bother? Life is too short to argue about stuff with people who, as far as I know, has never posted a single frame of video so we can see his work and judge his mastery of the subject at hand.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

OK,..so, I'll take some samples. I don't own a Z90, I have an NX80 which should be the same. Although I admittedly have not shot very much yet with my NX80 as I just got it a month ago, I have shot SLog-2 on the same sensor with the RX10-III a little bit. For small carry stuff now, I shoot 10bit VLog at 400Mbp/s on the GH5.

I'l shoot my backyard in the bright sun (possibly Thursday morning) in Slog-2 and Cine 1 or 2 and I'll upload the raw 30 second clips for folks to play with.

Maybe you are right Doug, maybe it WILL be "rubbish" or maybe not.

The problem here is "expectations"....and our definition of what "rubbish" actually is. (I told you about that DP I know that thinks ALL rolling shutter cameras are terrible and that he only shoots global shutter) I think we all know that it's not going to look like SLog-2 from a 14stop camera like an FS7, or FS700 or FS5..etc. I am, in no way trying to say that it's going to be "awesome" as I KNOW what these 1inch-type Exmor RS sensors can do and what they cant. I might even throw the FS700 12bit raw stream to 10bit ProRes HQ as a side by side baseline comparison. Just 30 seconds to keep downloads small.

I will promise you this. If the NX80 looks like "rubbish" (for a cheap $2,000 1 inch-type camera) than I will have the guts to admit this to you and anybody else. I'm NEVER afraid to admit that I'm wrong about anything.

So what do I expect? About a couple of stops more DR and less cloud clipping than Cine 1 or 2. I'm not expecting 14 stops, I'm only expecting 10-11 stops at very best. Not too bad for a small, cheap camera like this. That is my expectation.

Your expectations, as I interpret them, are that NONE of his will be possible with SLog-2 over Cine 1/2. SLog-2 will NOT give a greater dynamic range over Cine 1/2 that is "usable". This is how I read you Doug.

Ok. Well?.. the footage will speak for itself. If you are right, I will freely and happily admit this to you. You have my word.

I will post the direct files for anybody that wants to inspect the test for themselves.

Let's PLEASE go into this with a very NEUTRAL mind set. OK?

CT

P.s. Im not trying to say you are a liar. Thats not right. Im only trying to say you might not have given it a fair chance based on a possible pre-conceived notion. Thats all. :-)

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Hey....I'm 100% open to whatever the files show. People can do their own grade and everybody will be their own judge.

I'm guessing +2 stops more in SLog-2??? Who knows,...maybe Doug is completely right and there is nothing there.

I'll bring it and do it on my lunch break tomorrow.

CT

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Cliff, just so you know in advance, I won't be downloading your files. I have plenty of my own S-LOG vs. PP tests to work with and I don't need yours. Why don't YOU grade your own footage and then upload a split-screen comparison between S-LOG and PP1 (or any other non-S-LOG gamma) to show us all the difference? I'm not going to do your grading for you.

However, with that said, I would be more than happy to take a look at a finished split-screen video to see proof of your claims about the fantastic abilities of S-LOG on the Z90. Naturally, I will also accept anything from your NX80. I am really looking forward to seeing this great video that you have promised that backs up your claims.

BTW, I don't understand this obsession you have with dynamic range. I don't see how you can think DR trumps everything else and is all that matters. Nothing could be further from the truth. DR is far, far down on the list of things that make a beautiful image. If you really believe that DR is that important why don't you purchase a dynamic range test chart from DSC and shoot some charts. The camera that shows the most range is the winner!! No other test need be done if that is all you care about.

I wish I could post some of the video we've been shooting this week at the Olympics at the downhill racing events in bright sun and ice hockey to show you how (even in very high contrast conditions) dynamic range is not important. The footage looks absolutely gorgeous and blows away anything the Z90 could ever do even if S-LOG worked perfectly on that little camera. There is just so many more elements of a great picture that you don't seem to understand. I've got our 4K highlights team's three Z450's running on a custom scene file built around Hypergamma 4 and it just looks awesome right out of the cameras. No S-LOG needed. Amazing, really. Tune into NBC and watch some of the "live" coverage from any of the events anywhere at the Olympics. It's all REC709 and almost all HD (not even 4K). There's no log or grading on any of it. Think your NX80 looks like that?

Here's some Z450 footage I shot last year after NAB with regular REC709 settings. Do you think your NX80 (with or without S-LOG) can look this good?

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Admins. Will you stop this tit for tat before we lose one or both of our members?

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Well renting these videos was a wise choice as now I'll ultimately save cash. I'm going to stick with the X70 for a few more years. While the AF improvements would be welcome, there's still too much compromise for 4K for my liking.

Once 10-bit 4:2:2 4K shows up at around 3 to 3.5K USD, I'll move.

Side note... I'm currently trying out your WSYWIG recommended profile Doug, but on the X70. Matching things up the best I could. I think shutting off the auto knee and the black level changes made the most difference. Previously, I was just using a very slight modification to PP4.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Thanks, Ricky. I'd be interested to hear how well my profile works on the X70 after you've had time to use it more.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Doug, where are the profiles located?

If included in your Vimeo tutorial, I am not up to that chapter yet. Nice job by the way.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Hi Lou, chapter 14 is the one you want for profiles. I'm glad you're liking the video so far. Thanks.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Use Cine 1 as there is NO Cine 4 in the X70. I was able to match my AX-700 and X-70 very well. I would recommend +4 for saturation on the X-70, but that is a matter of personal preference. I kept +2 on the AX-700.

Doug's PP is SPOT ON!!

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

So it looks like some of our lively debate was deleted. So, I'll just type an easy and neutral "admin friendly" comment because the other stuff must have been too strong. (Sorry if that was the case)

Dynamic range - I believe the NX80 puts out about 10 stops, not the 14 that was stated. I believe that SLog-2 does capture more DR than Cine 1 or 2. I think the files show this with no trouble.

As promised, I'm posting 3 files I shot today. These are only 20 seconds each and are straight off the NX80 card. It's a tough scene with bright sky and dark trees. I exposed all three to the right and took the clouds up high but nothing is clipped. It's a "top to bottom" test just to see everything this sensor can put out.

Without even grading it, it's easy to see that SLog-2 does capture more DR than Cine 1 and 2. Dark trees show detail in the bark and shadowy grass stands out easily. You can choose to expose and grade this any way you want. When shooting, with that extra latitude, you can expose in two ways. You can protect more whites and blow them less or expose to the right and dig deeper down into the shadows. So it will give you a little more in post to work with. (Not allot but a little more) No, I never said this was an Arri Alexa, FS7, F5 or RED or anything of the sort. I know the dynamic range limitations of this sensor full well and all it's other limits too.

In my opinion, avoid SLog-3 like the plague. It's way, way too much for this sensor to handle and I'm surprised that SLog-3 was actually given to this camera. You cant drop a 10 stop sensor output into a 16 stop curve. This sensor just cant cover enough distance to make Slog-3 into anything usable. But definitely try this for yourself. A 10stop sensor needs a 10stop log curve. This is why SLog-2 can be used, because it's bent to match each sensor's full output and nothing more. There are no wasted stops.

Importance of dynamic range vs every other aspect of shooting - I never said dynamic range was more important than any or every other aspect of shooting. Obviously, a persons ability pick his subject, to frame, focus and expose well and tell his story is the ultimate goal of any shooter. DR is simply ONE thing on a list of many, many, many things. I never said this was not the case. I have never believed DR was some kind of be all, end all for one second of my life.

I never said or suggested that the NX80 was any spectacular or exceptional performer in any way. I simply said it was very good for what it was built for and it's low price. No, I do not believe this should replace anybody's super35 camera and I do not believe that it should be used for television broadcast. (Another idea that came up that doesn't make sense to me where it came from) I believe it is a very nice little camera that does a lot for it's price. I believe that if you own this camera,...and maybe if it's the only one you own,..you can use it for certain situations in SLog-2 and it can give you more post options if you are willing to do the work on it. (The usual, color grade and noise reduction etc...)

I certainly never said this camera should replace a traditional shoulder ENG camera for broadcast. I also certainly never said SLog-2 should be used for live feeds either. Again,...I'm not sure why this was ever brought into question.

Anyhoo,...here are the three 20 second clips and one of me just describing what I'm doing. This is intended for anybody that is curious to download and test on their own and judge for themselves. If you are planning on buying an NX80/Z90, you can see these untouched files and inspect. Remember, these are all exposed for a maximum dynamic range test so they are on the hot side of the scopes.

I'm off to Walt Disney World for the 3 day weekend and I'll play with it on Tuesday.

No,..I'm not expecting anybody to "grade this for me". Again, really confused as to where that sentiment came from.

For anybody that is curious, check it out and see for yourself and see how this all works for you. (for good or bad)

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1RP...z8dtLiBRg1K0en

Respectfully,

CT

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

I will sum up my thoughts with this: In all my testing with the Z90, I have never seen S-LOG provide superior results (even after grading in Resolve for standard REC709 delivery) to what can be done with a custom Picture Profile. I'm pretty certain that I'll never shoot S-LOG with the Z90 on a real shoot. Your mileage may vary.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Just a quick look 1t Cliff's clips as I see them in FCPX 10.4 with scopes and the S-Log 2 clip quickly graded in CoreMelt Chromatic

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

I'm sure most of us know this but for anybody that doesn't, on Cine 1 vs Cine 2 and SLog-2 on the scopes:

SLog-2 actually allows for 109 IRE. It's not broadcast legal. (there is no reason for that anyway)

Let me see if I get this right from memory... 8bit values for broadcast are 0 to 236? This takes you to 100IRE. However, 0-255 is 109 IRE and that is the full 8bit sampling range.

Technically, 8bit depth capability is 0-255 but when we shoot under boradcast legal, we slice anything over 100....so we are using a high of 236 instead of 255 so that's "7.5" bits instead of the full 8 bit ? Hehe.

Cine1 also goes outside broadcast legal to and Cine2 stays inside at 100 IRE clipping.

Did I get that right? ;-)

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

I asked Alister Chapman about the use of S-Log 2 on the Z90 in UHD and his response:

"I used S-Log2 because in UHD you only have a very limited data range to play with and S-Log3 only uses 80% of the already limited range while S-Log2 uses 95%. I am happy with the results having graded it in Resolve but there isn’t quite the same dynamic range you can get from a camera like the FS5 or FS7."

Alister's review in which he mentioned,
"I also shot at a couple of locations using S-Log2 to test how that worked (I was shooting in UHD and the camera is 8 bit in UHD. For 8 bit I prefer S-Log2 over S-Log3)."
The Sony PXW-Z90 ? a compact 4K camcorder with auto focus at it's best! | XDCAM-USER.COM

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Talk is cheap, where's the footage? Let's see it. And it would also like to see his S-LOG2 (graded) and a good custom Picture Profile split-screened on the same shots to illustrate how great S-LOG2 is on the Z90. Let's see it. People talk about how great S-LOG is in the Z90, but I've not seen any evidence of it.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

I dont think I have read anybody say that SLOG-2 is great or wonderful or spectacular or amazing or anything of the sort. I have also not seen anybody ever say that the Z90's SLog-2 competes with "TRUE" 14 stop cameras like FS700, FS5, FS7 or F5.

Doug,...you are the only one I have EVER read that stated it has an astounding "14stops" of dynamic range. I have read nobody on planet Earth that has ever said this,...but you.

If what you stated WAS true, than it WOULD be an amazing, wonderful and spectacular SLog-2 performer without question. The reason why it does not perform as well as these Sony cine cameras is because it only has around 10-11 stops.

Bottom line: I think the ONLY point that anybody has ever made about SLog-2 on the Z90 is that it gives you the most dynamic range that the Z90 sensor can muster. In other words,..the most this little guy can output.

That's it. It's that simple. It does not go anywhere beyond this. The Z90 / NX80's SLog-2 is GOOD but it's not "great"....it's just recording the "most" DR it's got. That's all. It's important to keep our expectations of this 1inch-type sensor "realistic" and not try to think it has fantasy DR performance!

You are the only one that has ever suggested anything contrary to this idea....

I say this politely and with all due respect,

CT

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Alister (as quoted by Craig Seeman): "I am happy with the results having graded it in Resolve".

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Sony usually has Alister represent the company all over the world. They clearly trust and respect his techical understanding of how image sensors work and how logarithmic gamma compression works. They use Alister to TEACH this stuff on their behalf. He will probably be giving Sony technical presentations about 50 ft away from you at NAB next month. Im sure he would allow you to ask him questions and to challange him on this in between his Sony lectures. There are also plenty of other Sony people there for you to argue with too.

You can certainly challenge everybody's happiness with Slog-2 on the Z90 all you want.

CT

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

I am not a Sony shill, and I don't care to argue with anybody about S-LOG. Just show me the footage. Simple as that.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Simon Wyndham does S-Log for RedShark News

https://www.redsharknews.com/product...nother-classic

For most of my testing I used S-Log3, and some S-Log2 gamma settings. These were matched with the S-Log3.cine colourspace in the case of S-Log3, and the S-log2 5500k colourspace for S-Log2.
...
In my test footage below you will notice noise in the lowlights. But this should be taken in context of the user. I played very safe with the exposure, despite knowing that with S-Log3 it is usually best to err on over exposure without clipping to minimise this. This is just a case of using the camera for much longer and testing extensively how much you can get away with.
...
For my test footage I tried to leave the footage as close to out of the camera as I could. An S-Log3 to LC709 Type A LUT was applied, and in some cases some minor exposure adjustment made where I wasn’t demonstrating a function such as gain. Other than that, the footage was relatively untouched unless I specify in the video otherwise.
...
In playing around with grading, I did find that perhaps this isn’t a camera, in 8-bit 4K modes at least, that you can reach very far into the shadows with, so along with the highlights you will need to be balanced with your exposures to protect the areas you deem most important for the shot you need. We can’t expect everything from a Palmcorder after all! Clearly the 10-bit 1080p modes will give you the most mileage with regard to grading potential.
...
However, although it isn’t meant to be a cinema camera, switch it into the S-Log modes and dial down the detail, and you have a very functional discreet documentary camera,
...
But the fact that you can also use 1080p at 10-bit 4:2:2 with HLG or S-Log means that you should be good for high quality gradeable footage if 4K isn’t essential.


All footage edited and handled within DaVinci Resolve 14.3 with only very basic tinkering. I wanted to keep the picture as close to what comes out of the camera as possible. Therefore aside from the waterfall shots, all were taken with S-Log3 gamma and S-Log3.cine colourspace, and had a basic S-Log3-709 type LUT applied (in this case Type A) in Resolve, and in some cases some minor exposure correction. The waterfall shots were taken at the default sharpness settings, while everything else was taken at detail -5. This I thought gave the most natural 'filmic' looking picture without becoming overly soft. The default was far too sharp.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

For my taste, I found SLog-3 to be completely unusable. SLog-3 is a 16 stop curve and that is just too much gamma compression for a 10-11 stop sensor. It's like a quart of milk into 1 gallon container. Doing this in 8bit just aggravates the problem.

SLog-2 is more realistic. Its job is to take ONLY what this sensor CAN actually output and map it to 0-255. It doesnt record and waste all that unused headroom on air and nothingness.

But hey, thats just me, give SLog-3 a shot and a try for yourself. That has always been my attitude with every workflow topic. Dont experiment on serious stuff,..but absolutely DO experiment in your back yard as much as you possibly can!

I dont believe in the "I dont like it....and neither should you" mentality. On the hiking trail, I will tell you the trail is blocked, but I'll give credit if you go there anyway to see for yourself. I respect that tenacity! Maybe you will find a detour that I didnt see and I'll be the first one be rooting for you to get around it.

That's "my" mentality. But I guess everybody is different.

CT

P.s. Just watched this video. Looks to me like this shooter really under exposed several of his SLog scenes. (I'd have to download this video and look at scopes to be sure) Although I dont see his ungraded shots on scopes, generally speaking you need to expose Slog to the right to get the maximum levels in teh recording. You can then stretch (contrast) the waveform "downward" (roughly speaking) in post. If you record your brightest whites way below 109 IRE (SLog-2) then you are going to give yourself a noisy headache in post. SLog gives you headroom. The more of it you use in field, the better your signal to noise ratio is when yo grade it. This goes for all cameras and Slog-2.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Cliff,

You are an obnoxious, internet troll. I am getting tired of reading your stuff. You rant and rave for pages but never prove or post anything that disproves anything Doug Jensen says. Why Doug replies to you is beyond me.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Wow,...what did I say that was so bad or wrong?

What I write here is no different than what anybody else writes here. We all have different opinions and that's great. I'm not trying to "prove" or "disprove" anything that anybody says here. I'm just giving an opinion like everybody else. I'm not "competing" with Doug or anybody else.

Now,...you will find strong disagreements on ANY video forum. (I think this one is one of the more "mild" ones. There are some truly "harsh" people on some other sites) You will find disagreements going on all over the NAB and IBC conventions floor all day long. If you get 1,000 camera guys and colorists and engineers in a room, you are going to hear PLENTY of vigorous debate by everybody. This is 100% normal and VERY much part of this industry.

Having a different opinion from somebody or anybody here does not make you a "troll". There are no two people in this industry that think the exact same way about every topic.

As far as Doug is concerned, I agree with him on MUCH more than I disagree with him.

I don't know why different opinions are looked at by some to be a bad thing. Did my last post have anything offensive, negative, personal or anything horrible in it?

CT

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Post proof of your Slog claims or move on.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Craig -
After reading Simon's review in the link and one of his other reviews, .... and ... I want one!
Talked to my wife and she asked me which cam I'd sell, the AX53 or the AX100. Good thing she didn't mention both.

For my needs, the NX80 should suffice, not sure what one would be missing. It'd be tough to part with one of its siblings, though.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

I did post files that I shot about a couple of pages back. Did you download the test files and look at them?

My SLog-2 claim is super simple: It's just this.....SLog-2 captures more dynamic range than the Cine profiles

The files I uploaded show this. That's all I'm saying. There is nothing more to it. If you look at the files and disagree with me and you don't see further into the shadows on the grass and tree bark, than so be it. Sony can see it, other shooters can see it, I can easily see it but maybe you see something different....and I wont say you are "wrong". That's cool.

We are all free to think for ourselves and I'm totally good with that and I'm not pointing fingers or flaming them for not agreeing with me.

If you think I'm wrong, that's fine! I'm NOT going to call you a "troll" for debating me about it!


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RPk...ew?usp=sharing

CT

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

I think the last words in the last sentence that Doug said in his post is also what I'm generally trying to say as well. I agree with him.

SLog-2 always maps the FULL sensor's read out and the rec709-ish ones don't. This goes for whatever sensor that SLog-2 is calibrated for in each particular camera model.

I don't understand why a couple of people are flaming me for saying this. Why is me saying this so "horrible" to some people?

CT

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

John, I have the AX53, AX100 and now the Z90. The AX100 can still hold its own with good 4K video, in my opinion. But, the BOSS of the AX53 is really great. I recommend you keep the AX53 and get yourself a new NX80 (if you don't need the 4:2:2 10-bit FHD of the Z90). The image stabilization of the Z90 is identical to the AX100, no better. Haven't done a low-light test yet, sorry.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Cliff,

Thank you for posting Simon's video because it completely proves my point that S-LOG looks like crap on the Z90. Simon and I have known each other for more than a decade and I have nothing but respect for him and his work, so if he cannot make S-LOG look good, then I know I'm on solid ground recommending that it be avoided on the Z90. As for Alister's differing opinion, well, to my knowledge he hasn't actually shown any S-LOG footage and, as you have pointed out, he has a very close relationship with Sony. Enough said.

There is not a single shot in Simon's video that looks acceptable. For example, look at the noise in the sunset at :51, noise in the woman's jacket at 1:13. Look at the waves and rocks at 1:36 and notice how drab it is with no bright whites and no true blacks. And look at the dreary, colorless, drab sunset at 2:05. Is that what we want? The whole video is noisy, flat, low-contrast, low-saturation, and somewhat soft. Nothing pops. Nothing looks clear, clean, and crisp. It's all muddy and low-contrast. Totally unacceptable.

Fortunately, I know Simon personally and I've already shot plenty S-LOG on the Z90 to know where the problem lies -- it is with the camera and not the operator. I cannot stress enough how much better his video would have looked if it had been shot with the Picture Profile that I create in the course of my Z90 training video. In fact, his video would have looked better if it had been shot with any of the default picture profiles 1 - 6 instead of S-LOG.

By comparison, look at the Z90 demo video I shot last October (posted down below). Now, there are a lot of crappy shots in this video too and I'm not going to hold it out there as some kind of glorious example of beautiful cinematography, but please compare the overall clarity, sharpness, dynamic range, of this video with that of Simon's. Which one looks better? I much prefer the look of my video which was all shot with various non-SLOG Picture Profiles -- that also have the time-saving advantage of no grading needed.

Simon's video just reinforces my low opinion of S-LOG on the Z90. And before you go blaming it on the fact that Simon used S-LOG3 instead of S-LOG2, I'm going to tell you that it doesn't matter. S-LOG2 looks like crap too. So I repeat my earlier challenge, put up some great looking S-LOG video of your own or please sit down and be quiet.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Perhaps I'm missing something! This footage above is not a 'test but rather a demonstration of what the shooter can do with the particular cam along with what he can do in post. The same must be said about Simon Wyndham's footage.

A test, that is a scientifically valid test, as I understand it consists of a control, that is the camera set on a tripod with all settings somewhat standard and footage recorded then the same camera, same settings, same light, same everything except now shooting in the variation being tested, Vlog or whatever. Post the ungraded footage and for all to download and grade, or whatever.

Neither Doug's nor Simon's footage meets the most fundamental definition of a 'test' and consequently proves nothing other than both shooters are somewhat competent camera operators and probably highly incompetent scientists :-)

This is not rocket science in fact this is hardly more than Secondary School level science. I would dearly like to see a test, a real test, a valid test, of the subject under discussion.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

OK Doug,...even "I'm" getting tired of this topic but I guess you want to keep thing going.....

I can clearly see you are not even reading these posts. I did not upload that "Simon video". If you were actually reading you would see that it looks to me that he underexposed his SLog-2 and yes, SLog-3 is terrible on this camera.

Do we all know what we get when we underexpose Slog-2 and don't expose it to the right? You record wasted headroom on "air"and this leads to excessive noise on every camera that is done on.

OK,...So I'm guessing you didn't even bother to look at the files I posed here. But I'll take the time to do a quick Slog-2 grade form the files I already posted. I somehow doubt you will look at that anyway too.

Stay tuned....

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

John, both of these video are indeed tests of the camera, but granted, not the kind of head to head tests between various settings that you would like to see. But I have done those tightly controlled A vs B tests and S-LOG always comes out the loser. I’m not going to post those tests because they were done with people and locations that didn’t consent to being presented for public display. So someone can either believe me, call me a fool, or just go along their merry way, it makes no difference to me. But I’m not going to waste my time shooting new tests just to prove what I already know to be the case.

I say that non-SLOG shooing is the best way to use the camera and I have posted plenty of footage that I feel is more than good enough to use in a broadcast-quality production. I have put my footage where my mouth is. So if someone else says S-LOG is better, then I simply ask to see some great looking footage that shows S-LOG at its best on the Z90. It doesn’t even have to be head to head testing (although that would be nice). I just want to see some nice S- LOG footage from the people that who promote its use. Where’s the footage? Simon’s footage sure hasn’t made the case, nor would my own if I posted it.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Did I say you uploaded it? I said you posted it, meaning that you brought it into this conversation in your post. Are we really going to get hung up on semantics now???? I am truly out of this thread. Goodbye. Post whatever you want, call me a name, insult my mother, burn the flag, I don’t care. I am gone and you can have the last word.

Oh, and don’t come up to me next month at NAB and act like this is all good fun and we should have a jolly laugh. I consider this a serious topic and you are wasting my time.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

So I sit back and read how this thread has morphed since it started. It's funny how a simple thing like SLog vs Cine profiles on a camera can grow and grow into such a thing like this.

Many of us are very passionate about our experiences with our cameras. It's very NORMAL for passionate people to have vigorous disagreements about the in's and out's of their industry. Take 10,000 mechanics, doctors, lawyers, politicians, economists, or camera guys and get them all each together into their groups and in a very short while they will all be bickering with each other who is smarter than the other or who is wrong or right.

I really, really get it. It would be really weird if we all agreed on everything. Let's face it. Canon guys think Sony sucks. Sony guys think Panasonic sucks. RED guys say Canon, Sony and Panny suck.We all go 'round and around everyday in forums throwing out our opinions,...and we all seem believe we are right and they other guy is wrong. This is perfectly normal and OK.

At the end of the day we are just talking about camera science here. I respect everybody here,...I really really do. Even the guy with 1 post to his name can contribute in the arena of ideas.

I never EVER take anything here personally and certainly will never intentionally insult anybody. I'll be happy to greet anybody here in a convention with a firm handshake and a sincere smile. I dont feel any need to be "believed" here one bit. If somebody tells me: "Cliff, you are wrong about SLog-2...it has zero dynamic range improvements over Cine's" I would say "Awesome!.....do what works for you" and I will shake his/her hand with no problem!

I certainly have ZERO animosity (non whatsoever) for people that disagree with me and I hope we could ALL be that way here.

Unfortunately, I'll probably be at Sony for several hours next month. Doug, I'm perfectly fine to shake your hand but if you prefer, I'll bring a pair of plastic black frame glasses with the rubber mustache and wear that near the ENG cameras section. (You will probably still spot me...just dont give me that "John Wayne" punch! ;-) I think there is a Sony Z-170 coming out so I can't avoid that nearby camera. (The A7S-III is going to be insane if it has 10bit)

John McCully is right, these are not great tests to be doing a serious determination of a camera. However, for what it's worth, (maybe not much!) I graded the SLog-2 file in my Cine/SLog-2 test. I'm going out Miami Beach tomorrow to shoot some drone footage. I'll bring my NX80 and shoot SLog-2 on some bright white boats in the Florida sun and see if I can get some good shots with SLog-2 protecting those bright whites....or maybe it wont???

I'll throw a few graded clips up tomorrow night. Maybe it will be "rubbish", maybe it will be "OK" or maybe it might even be "pretty darn good". Who knows? If there is anybody interested, they will be the ultimate judge. Some might say I was right, some will say I was dead wrong. That is OK, I'm my own judge and every viewer is their own judge. Right?

Either way, I will respect everybody's opinion equally.

CT