Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Some more information on Simon's SLog-3 footage - When I said it was underexposed, I was right. I opened his RedShark article and this is what he said:


________________________

"In my test footage below you will notice noise in the lowlights. But this should be taken in context of the user. I played very safe with the exposure, despite knowing that with S-Log3 it is usually best to err on over exposure without clipping to minimise this. This is just a case of using the camera for much longer and testing extensively how much you can get away with. Having said this I do not find the noise to be objectionable. In fact the camera copes very well indeed with high gain settings. Far better than I had expected." - Simon Wyndham
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A couple of things that we know about SLog is that over exposing is a must. The more light you let in the higher the signal to noise ratio goes. This pushes your signal further and further away form the noise floor. We also know that you shouldn't record SLog or VLog any higher than 0db gain. Simon knew he was under exposing and did it to test the noise floor of the camera. This is fine as a "test" but not how this camera performs on "normal" SLog-2 over exposure. This is CRITICAL information by Simon.

I think his notes here and his intentions tell us allot about why his video looks like this. The second I saw the raw parts, I said; "hmmm,...he is under exposing,...big time"

Remember cassette tapes? Remember how we used to record our music levels as hot as we could before tape saturation? Why did we do this? Because we wanted the music to be as far ABOVE the tape hiss (noise floor) that we could possibly get it. What did tapes sound like if your peaks were -10 or 15db under zero? Woof,...hissy and noisy as Hell.

When we shoot in SLog it allows us to open up and bring in MORE light than "non-log" gamma and this allows the Log curve to compress that brightness...but like a cassette recording, we want to get the signal as strong as possible over that noise floor without clipping our wave. The further away your music is from the noise floor, the cleaner your playback is.

It's a good RedShark article. It's important to read his writing BEFORE we judge the video he shot. What he says changes everything about the test. (Yes, I personally would never use SLog-3 on this camera but that just me)

CT

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Hold on a second, I need more popcorn...

This is almost as entertaining as watching the NRA go at it with high school students...

Paul

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Nah,...this is all much ado about something small.

This is just allot of "passion" on display. Maybe by "both" of us. He believes SLog-2 is rubbish and unusable and I don't agree. I agree it's not spectacular but I do say that it "is" usable if you shoot it right. This is just a 1inch-type sensor, after all.

I always say "1inch-type" sensor because none of these Sony sensors actually measure 1 inch. That is why Sony almost always says" "1inch-type" sensor in their marketing material. That size specification actually refers to old archaic standard measurement for vacuum tube cameras. (long story...but it's NOT 1 inch in actual size)

Anyhoo,...I believe SLog-2 can help with highlight protection and that you "can" use it in certain situations.

If I was recording a rock concert with rapid fire RGB changing lights blasting in all directions and on faces, I would use SLog-2 on this guy with no hesitation. I just shot a couple of some very bright scenes today at the beach. I did a grade tonight and it came out great. I did use light noise reduction and a custom SLog-2 to rec709 800% LUT that I built in LUT Calc.

Will shoot another couple of clips tomorrow and throw them up tomorrow night and anybody can judge for themselves. I over exposed about 2 (roughly) stops without clipping my super whites.

Everybody will judge for themselves. These are clean grades with high contrast and deep color saturation. Surprisingly have not seen any 8bit banding in blue sky. (yet)

CT

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Since I only shoot 60P I am interested in how these cameras behave with Slog2 and HLG in 60P. Even though for HDR one should really be in UHD and 10bit !!!

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

At least the epic 1959 movie BEN-HUR had an intermission......

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

I wonder if one of us should start a thread specifically on S-Log since it's not clear that's where we've headed given the Title of this thread. New readers aren't likely to know that it's being discussed here and if they begin reading they might run away.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

I performed an "I am bored" HLG test the other night...using a dark setting with a bright light in the middle. I shot clips in REC709 and HLG BT2020, imported into FCPX using the proper HDR library settings, but the highlight handling was basically identical. I have no idea what to do with these HLG files, as I have no way to view them on my HDR 4K TV set, and no way to playback 10 bit HDR out of my Macbook or PC. I see the new 2018 Samsung 4K TV's have HLG, maybe those sets would recognize these clips as HDR.

Paul

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

But don't all these new Sony's shoot UHD in 8 bit, 4:2:0 150Mbps. Does the Z90 shoot HLG HD 4:2:2 10bit ? rec709 and bt2020 would be colour difference the highlights should be the same ?

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

I’m currently going through withdrawal. Last week I sold the AX100 (*sniff*) with the intention of springing for the NX80. Somewhere I had read that the NX80 was better than the Z90 with regard to … something … related to motion capture. Frame rate? Mbps? Just don’t remember and can’t find the source even though having looked through computer History and did more re-searching. Sitting here now with an itchy trigger finger (If that is politically correct) for a replacement.

The idea was if the NX80 “speed” was better than the Z90, given the trade-off between speed and 10-bit plus $500, tough decision, I would spring for the NX80. Shooting boats on the water needs both speed and capturing the range of highlights to darks.

Don’t need an ENG cam to upload stuff to the internet, and don’t need to shell out $500 for a minimal benefit, but do need another cam. Currently limping along with the AX53 which is a sweetheart of a handy cam, oh, and let’s not forget the iPhone, (*!*) but things just aren’t the same. These three cams are supposed to be the same except for major differences but sometimes there are subtle little differences that aren’t advertised and don’t necessarily pop up on a spec sheet. Any help with this elusive "speed" difference I thought I remembered would be appreciated. Would really hate to get one then discover I really should have got the other.

Craig’s new S-Log thread was a good idea and Paul’s dilemma (#87) may be the next shoe to drop.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Most 4K TV's of any brand now support HLG, and not just those out in 2018.

Do you have one of these phones?:

The following devices have all confirmed that they support mobile HDR (and HLG) via the YouTube app:

Apple iPhone X
Apple iPhone 8
Apple iPhone 8 Plus
Apple iPad Pro (2nd-gen)
LG G6
LG V30
Razer Phone
Samsung Galaxy S8
Samsung Glaxy S8+
Samsung Galaxy Note 8
Samsung Galaxy S9
Samsung Galaxy S9+
Samsung Galaxy Tab S3
Samsung Galaxy Book
Sony Xperia XZ Premium
Sony Xperia XZ1
Sony Xperia XZ2
Sony Xperia XZ2 Compact

YouTube will automatically play an HLG video in HLG if the device is HLG compatible (it discovers this) and will also convert the HLG video to REC709 and play that version on all other viewing devices. How convenient is that?

It seems that if you distribute your video via YouTube you should always shoot in HLG...

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

John, for fast past moving subjects, I would guess that 50Mbps of pure 4:2:0 8 bit goodness would allow less compression artifacts over the 10 bit 4:2:2 50Mbps Z90...not sure about high speed framerates though.

Mark, for my HLG testing, tried 4K as well as HD 10 bit 4:2:2. I have an S8 phone, so maybe I will throw a file at it for kicks. When I set FCPX to export out the HLG file in REC709, they look " similar" to the REC709 recordings, just a lot more shadow noise...more noise in general, less contrast...using the FCPX presets at least.

Paul

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

I'm thinking of selling mine too. What did it fetch if you don't mind the question
thanks
Bruce

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Paul - thanks for the feedback.
Sure wish I could remember where I read about the difference, though. The other concern is about highlights and darks, especially in August, although with global warming now we're seeing fewer grey skies.

Edit: Paul - glad to see you started a new thread "Working with HLG footage" so, hopefully, the FCPX workflow is all sorted out if and when I get there.

Bruce - It was let go for $850 on Craigs List in the afternoon and shortly after had a buyer at the listed price and picked it up the next morning. There was one other AX100 listed for $1,050 so that may have helped. Will continue to use the AX53 a B-cam.
Edit: Currently the AX53 has got a temporary promotion to A-cam status.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

After three months of being without an A-cam has been very difficult. Three months of going back and forth about the next cam to get, weighing options, tradeoffs, costs, needs, wants, … and finally couldn’t take it any longer. Had to get something!

The new cam in the quiver, replacing the AX100, is now the AX700. It has a lot of various useful, albeit in some cases minor, upgrades over the AX100. The cumulative effect is there are more control options via a larger menu. One nice item in the box was the Large Eyecup. Never realized how nice this would be but when outdoors in the sunlight this item is absolutely super.

The viewfinder and LCD screens are really sharp. Compared to the AX100 this cam has a lot more heft so won’t be as much of a “handicam”. Audio inputs with XLR cables will be via the JuicedLink pre.

Battery: the NP-FV70A is rated at 1900 mAh vs 1960mAh of the NP-FV70 that is standard with the AX100. What is weird is, even though the 70A has fewer mAh, it is about 6mm taller. Go figure. Wonder what they have inside.

Haven’t had time to really shoot anything with it yet, well, maybe except for maybe a couple minutes worth after getting the battery charged up. Looking forward to doing a shoot with the AX53 as the B-roll cam.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Anton Bauer batteries have been growing in size but with no gain in wattage. The explanation from them is the larger cases allow better heat dissipation during charges, keeping the cells healthier and allowing longer battery life. But maybe Sony just sourced new slightly different cells from Sanyo or something...more likely

Paul

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Spacing them out just a little bit makes a lot of sense because the cases do get warm with usage, particularly some usage, even charging, so the heat must have a negative effect on the chemistry and dielectric, and therefor battery life.

The width of the typical battery case is fixed by the cam but the height typically is not so they can "grow" that direction. I was kinda wondering if there was some new circuit board inside to help process battery information but I don't have any old one to take apart to find out. Of course, one would need a NP-FV70 and a 70A version to compare.

As for telling counterfeit apart from the OEM ones, Sony Support told me that only the Sony Repair Center can tell them apart via the green holographic insert on the end of the battery. There is also a manufacturing date written in the lower right corner on the back.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

I'd like to thank Doug for the Z90, NX80, AX700 Master Class. I'm upgrading my AX100 to a NX80, and this class made the process painless. I'd recommend this for anyone making that transition.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

I agree. Doug's Master Class is a MUST.
Roland

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

I recently rewatched the chapter on autofocus. The discussion on AF SUBJ. TRACK SET and AF DRIVE SPEED inspired me to play around and really learn when to tweak these. Out of the box, the Z90 has excellent AF with the default values. But when you know before shooting what kind of subject/camera motion you will encounter, AF becomes amazing - far better than I could ever do with manual focus.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Guys, thanks for the nice comments. It means more to me than you'd believe to know that my training videos really do make a difference in helping others get better usage of their cameras. Thanks.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Doug, any news on a future Z190/Z280 training video? I have to believe Sony will get them to you shortly. If so, any hints on your take on these two cameras?

I have the Z190 on my radar but Im just not sure what to expect on performance from a three tiny 1/3inch sensor optical block. My "gut" tells me a possible dim 0db rating with high and massive amounts of noise reduction.

Hopefully I'm completely wrong.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Hi Cliff, I'll be working on a training video series that will cover both cameras. But other than that, I can't really say much about the cameras other than I loved what I saw at NAB. Thanks for asking.

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Yes, indeed, I found it very helpful for making the transition. And a real time saver overall. Thanks, Doug!

Re: Introduction to the Z90, NX80, and AX700
 

Thanks David, that is very nice of you to say. I'm glad I could help.