Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

I, and I"m sure Clive who started this thread, do care a lot about how good camera's can shoot at high iso's, as wedding shooters that is a very important feature. From what I have seen so far in comparison videos the gh4 is no better then the gh3 when it comes to noise and low light sensitivity and 6400 iso is already pretty noisy, usable in my case as it still looks better then 3200 iso on my 550d which I had before.

It looks like (again from only seeing what sony has provided so far) the a7s should easily be able to go to 50000 iso and beyond which would open up many more possibilities while choosing your aperture in very dark candle lit venues, currently I only have one choice, open to 6400 iso, shoot at f1.4. I actually don't care if Sony used a noise reduction in camera, their 51200 and even 102.400 iso in their sample video looks usable for my purposes, which is shooting weddings.

The problem only is, that whenever a new camera comes out, you can't change sides as that is often a very expensive change, I do like my panasonic gh3 a lot and the image it outputs is excellent, there is a high possibility I will change my g6 for a gh4 but it's unlikely I will be shooting much 4k with it, unless I need it, I see the gh4 more as a improved gh3 that can do 4k, I value the fact that it has zebra's much more then 4k to be honest.

Everytime something new comes along a lot of people seem to think you need it because what you had won't cut it any more, saw it with the raw capability from the BMC camera's and I have yet to see more then a handful of videos that really impresses me, same will apply for 4k, if the cameraman behind the lens produced crap before, 4k will only make it more obvious.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Also, something important to consider when buying a 4k capable camera and shoot with it in that way is how it will fit in your current workflow. what Clive mentioned about "futureproofing" your camera might be something to think about, could very well be that once you really start to rely on 4k your camerabody might be up for replacement.

If you would integrate the gh4's 4k footage into a 1080p workflow with other camera's first thing that might come in to mind is the difference in sharpness, put a gh4 4k image downsized to hd next to that of a 700d and the sharpness difference might already be too obvious to match the camera's right.
I guess you need faster and bigger cards to handle 4k and to shoot the same amount which add again to the cost.
You need a faster pc to handle 4k natively
You need more storage space to keep all your raw data
The cropfactor is even larger from what I understand on the gh4 when you shoot 4k so your widest lens just became narrower which would be no issue at all on the a7s, but you'd need a external recorder to shoot in that way which will make it more bulky and less convenient.

I guess that no matter what you choose you should base your decision on whether you really "need" 4k or just "want" it, sometimes it's a obvious decision, like if you already have invested in panasonic or sony glass, it depends on budget because changing sides can cost you a lot of money and it depends if you find the ability to crop your footage in a 1080p project more important then to shoot at higher iso and being able to shoot full frame which gives you more possibilities with wide lenses.

Shooting 4k would mostly be considered as something you would need once we can start delivering in 4k which I don't see happening overnight.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

At this point, "futureproofing" is a fool's game. There's simply no way to do it. Who ever would have imagined back during the HVX heyday that Panasonic would be where it is now? Or that Canon would blow the doors off interchangeable lens cameras? Or that Sony would leapfrog and be the hot frontrunner? Or that BMD/AJA would even be *making* cameras at all?

Crop factor is a way overblown issue. I have had GH2/GH3, C100 and now a GH4 coming up. Shot on Pocket, BMCC, Epic, ect. Crop factor has never been an issue.

I really don't care about 4K myself. The GH4 wins as a great upgrade over the GH2/3 for focus peaking, 10-bit 4:2:2 out, and up to 96fps slow-motion in 1080. Plus improved stills.

Actually, shooting in 4K is to have zoom options for delivering in 1080. Shooting for mastering in 4K is going to be much better on Dragon at 6K.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Here is where I stand with this. I currently have three GH2 setups and a bunch of glass.
As a wedding shooter, I need low light performance. NEED it. The sony cam coming out looks amazing in that regards.

I was thinking of going the GH4 route, using it for low light situations with an external recorder as I've heard that downsizing 4k 4:2:2 to 1080p delivers great results, allowing me to go to higher iso cleaner - but this new sony cam looks to kick the gh4 right in the face.

Problem? I'm invested in m4/3. So now I don't know what the heck to do haha. Sigh

In regards to crop factor not being an issue - it absolutely is for me. When is it an issue? When I need 12mm @ 1.4 in a tight bedroom and well, I can't do that, with m4/3.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

What do you mean you can't?

SLR Magic HyperPrime Cine 12mm T/1.6 Lens for Micro Four Thirds Cameras SLR-1216MFT

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

I use the olympus 12mm f2.0 for my wide shots, works well and if I want fish eye wide I use a 7,5mm rokinon lens.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

12mm on M4/3 is 24mm.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Is that not wide enough for you?

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

12mm is indeed a decent wide, using a tight bedroom as your example concern, if it's that tight than adding just a few watts of extra light would solve that issue along with the 7-14 or other ultrawide of your choice.

Available samples aside, you just have to wait till it's in the wild to see what it's fully capable of. those photosites are twice the size of the average full frame camera these days, so yea, 50,000iso may very well be the new 6400iso, or even better. the rx10 i see as being on par or a smidge better in lowlight than the 5d2, huge difference in size and yet the significantly newer tech shows its strength. always fun to see what the latest tech will do.

And i'm in the same boat wedding/event wise, there are plenty of times i struggled with available light(hate the on camera light look), and cringed the few times i pushed 6400 on the 5d2, with the c100 i put a lot of 12,800 to use to get some manageable DOF. With the a7s, it might be the first camera you can achieve short distance hyperfocal with in unreasonable light :)

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

How experienced are you with full frame cameras? Have you owned/used one quite a bit so far?

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Sometimes it isnt really. I suppose I'm also at fault for not getting one of those 12mm 2.0's leaving me limited to my 14 2.5, which again just doesn't cut it for me sometimes. I work around it and all, but sometimes I wish I had a bit more options. I then quickly remember that my equipment cost a 1/4th of my associates canon stuff.

Ive toyed around a bit with a friend of mines 5d. If the FF route wasn't so much more expensive I'd have probably went that way from the get go.
The affordability really pushed me into m4/3, my wedding work isn't full time (haven't made it that big yet). I'd like it to be. Heck I'd like a FS700 and a bunch of other gear if I could! :)

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

I have worked with aps-c sensor camera before and there a 14mm was sufficient for my needs but once I invested into m4/3 I too saw the 14mm f2.5 was not wide enough so I do understand where you are coming from. :)

I now have a olympus 12mm f2.0 and that one is just ok for my wide angle needs, Olympus will be working on a 7-14mm f2.8 coming for m4/3 and I guess it will be a expensive one but maybe worth the wait and investement, I have read that it will be released in 2015.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

I used the Panasonic 7-14mm lens when I had my GH2 & it is a really great wide angle lens(14-28mm FF equivalent). The F/4 maximum aperture wouldn't be such a limitation on the OM-D, G6, GH3 or GH4 which all have better low light capability than the GH2.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

I fail to see why you are thinking in Full Frame terms then, when your experience with full frame is very limited. Are you sure 12mm for a normal sized room is not wide enough?

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Ive watched quite a few videos shot by people online in which they breakdown and explain their lens choices for given moments, so it gives me an idea. That said, I do realize I lack experience so who knows for certain.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Do you really need experience with full frame? a gh3 has a 2x crop compared to full frame, so a 12mm is a 24mm on full frame, you just multiply by 2 to have a reference. Fact is that you can go much wider on a full frame and have faster lenses available. Eventhough 12mm on m4/3 is wide enough for me for most purposes I have had occasions where I wished I had the 7-14mm on my gh3, I only find the f4 a bit too slow, I will see what the Olympus 7-14 f2.8 will cost but if it's not too expensive that lens will be on my wishlist.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Not a lot of affordable f0.95 lenses for full frame, last I checked.

I've had very good luck using a SpeedBooster with the Tokina 11-16/2.8 and Sigma 10-20/3.5 UWA zooms on MFT... that yields very useable ~8-12/2 and 7-14/2.5 lenses (not to mention other good options). That they become manual focus only doesn't bother me with a UWA, just set it hyperfocal and go.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Not sure if this lens is for full frame but in order to get the same field of view of a Sigma 20mm f/1.8 would require a 10mm f1.8 for the same field of view on m4/3, can you use this len swith a speedbooster and how much would you gain? Also, would this lens on a canon or panasonic camera with speedbooster retain it's autofocus functionality?

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

tokina 11-16 and speedbooster, best solution.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Unless you happen to like your image quality. Focal reducers are not new, and yet they haven't come into wide use. Also, there is no such thing as a free lunch. So test it first. I have used one on an FS700 and did not like the results at all.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

But if you have never owned or used a full frame 35mm stills camera extensively, then isn't it a bit ridiculous to bring it up? Unless you previously were using a 5D Mark II or other full frame still camera extensively on shoots and know what 16 or 24 or 50mm looks like on it and need to replicate what you are used to seeing, then you're not thinking in those terms and all, and are instead just tossing it out there just for the sake of being negative.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

So, you seem to have extensive experience with m4/3 and full frame? Why don't you explain then what the differences are between a 12mm lens on a m4/3 camera (take the gh3 as example with it's 2x crop) and a 24mm lens on a full frame camera when it comes to field of view. Then we might learn something because at this moment you are only saying we don't know and that's not very positive either :).

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

No, I have extensive experience with 1/2", m4/3, and APS-C.

I will be more explicit for you. If you have shot for years on a 7D, then you know how a 24mm lens looks on the APS-C sized sensor. You don't go to yourself, "Hmm, this room needs a good wide. I would shoot on a 15.6mm lens in full frame, so I would need a 24mm lens for my 7D in here."

No one does that (for some reason, APS-C gets a huge pass on this constant translation). Instead you would know what a 24mm lens looks like on your 7D and have a good guess as to whether it was wide enough, or if you needed to pull out an 11-16mm.

However, for m4/3, is constantly compared to full frame by people who don't use it and don't know instinctively what focal length they would need in the first place for full frame. What does 16mm look like in that room on a 5D Mark II? Do you know?

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

You are still not answering my question Gary and with a man of your expertise that should be an easy one, no? :)

So I"ll ask again: what is the differences between a 12mm lens on a m4/3 camera (take the gh3 as example with it's 2x crop) and a 24mm lens on a full frame camera when it comes to field of view.

I assumed it is the same, only you keep saying I shouldn't assume as I don't have experience with full frame and that's not an answer, so, what's the difference?

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

I'm sorry you still don't understand. I don't know how else to explain it to you.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Well, you reacted on James his comment that 12mm on M4/3 is 24mm on a full frame camera, if that would be a wrong assumption you did not correct it but instead you kept saying that if he or anyone who makes such a statement and has no experience with a full frame camera, it would be ridiculous to bring it up, because they don't know what they are talking about.

Then it appears you have not worked with full frame camera's either so why would I even listen to you? :D

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

So you disagree that those who, like me, don't work extensively with Full Frame cameras cannot instinctively visualize what the field of view of, say, a 24mm lens will look like at a specific location on, say, a 5D Mark III as opposed to a smaller sensor size that they routinely work with?

So if I have shot with a m4/3 camera for the last three years, and have used a 5D Mark III on a single job, then you disagree that I would not step into a room and say to myself, "Well, I would need 24mm on a 5D Mark III to get the wide shot that I want in here, so I would need a 12mm lens on the GH4 that I am using."

Do you disagree that people with little/no experience with Full Frame 35mm photography-sized sensors instinctively visualize the full frame field of view that you get on specific lenses?

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

This conversation is leading nowhere, got better things to do... :)

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

I have read somewhere that the a7s price is being announced tomorrow? Not sure if that was a reliable source, maybe a fun guessing game, see who gets closest, I say it will be 2600 dollar body only.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Oh, so you do agree that you think in terms of APS-C when picking a lens for your NEX-EA50?

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

I don't have a nex-ea50, take a shot at the a7s price instead, much more fun.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

I will estimate $2999. Just enough to undercut 5D Mark III.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Gary, let me try and explain.

I've been using my 20mm 1.7 pancake lens on my panasonic gh2 for about two years now. I have a pretty good understanding from this time spent using it, if its going to be wide enough for a certain room or situation.

That said, I'm also well aware that the 20mm thats advertised on the lens, I'm actually seeing 40mm in camera due to the 2x crop factor.

I'm also well aware, due to the magic of the internet, that if I had a 20mm lens on say a full frame camera such as the 5d, that instead of having 40mm I would indeed have 20mm, which is significantly wider than 40mm.

So whenever my 20mm (effectively 40mm) lens isn't wide enough, I say to myself: "darn, wish I could get wider like those full frame folk". Which leads me to my comments about my struggles to get wide - as I know someone with a 5d can pick up a Canon EF 14mm f/2.8L II USM Lens and get a nice, wide and fast 14mm with autofocus and total electronic control, whereas the best I can do is get a 12mm 2.0 which turns into 24mm, or a some kind of tokina 11-16 plus speed booster combination that will get me there but without electronic controls.

I then remind myself that I do benefit in this due to the beauty of my solution costing a 1/4 of what the full frame system costs, albeit at a loss of light sensitivity.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

You're looking too much into the crop factor/FF equivalent. Think in terms of FOV. better yet, use abels' tool AbelCine - Field of View Calculator

plug in the af100 for m43. then compare all you like.

Also, there is no literal crop factor on your 20mm lens, as it's designed for m43, if you use a 20mm EF lens, then the sensor is cropping the image circle. this is an important distinction because it accounts for differences in the lens quality at center vs edge.

Generally speaking, anything above 60 degrees is considered wide, 80-90degrees, very wide, 90+, superwide.

most folks in most cases don't need superwide. i've used aps-c and FF for several years, the majority of the time the 28 was my preferred wide on FF even though i had wider glass, and 18 on 1.6x is plenty wide for most situations. If i needed wider, yes i'd use the tokina 12-24 1.6x lens, but i'd say i use that lens maybe 5-10% of the time

But again, everything comes down to what you're actually shooting... it sounds like you're basing your thoughts off of full frame envy(no slight intended) instead of looking critically at your situation and figuring out what you actually need for what you have. f4 may be half the light of f2.8, but if you're really in that tight of a space, literally just a few watts of light would bridge and surpass that gap.

You do own some lights, yes?

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

It's not just the Field of View that must be considered when comparing Full Frame vs Micro Four Third. While a 12mm on MFT has similar FoV to 24mm on FF to get the same Depth of Field the MFT lens will need to be two stops wider & it is in fact impossible for the MFT to match the FF DoF if the aperture on the FF is less than F/4 as there is no 12mm MFT lens available with an aperture greater than F/2..

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Hallo

I just ordered A7S,yet I am not interested in shooting 4k,but Ninja Blade mounted on it i have 1080X1920 50p.be a second video camera with C100.I had GH3 and was fantastic, just the hdmi output was 50 i.I think to buy a cheaper version like metabonce EF CANON,if you can help me with some suggestions which model you tested and is ok.

Thanks

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

I'm just about ready to put an order in for the A7S.

One question - what lenses are folks planning to go with? Its a bit of a joke that Sony have so few lenses for this.

Since I already have canon glass, I'm most likely going to stick with them and the metabones adaptor.

With the electronic view finder - I'd be tempted to buy IS lenses and try a lot more handheld shooting. I know others who have gone that way. It gives a lot more flexibility on the wedding day - especially during bridal prep and photoshoot.

Does canon have no 50mm range in IS though? All I see is 24mm, 35mm and 100mm.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Are you sure IS works on canon lenses when you use adapter and attach it to the sony? I thought that only will work on sony lenses.

Edit: maybe this article can help you on lens decission?: http://briansmith.com/sony-a7-a7r-lens-mount-adapters/

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

I guess I just assumed so Noa. The Metabones adaptor for it is a 'smart' adapter which connects up the aperture control. I assumed that the IS features would function also. Maybe I'm wrong?

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Yea, just read the metabones spec - IS is supported.