Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

I'm just about sold on this camera but I'm loathe to order from Hong Kong as I'm in the middle of trying to get a Samyang lens repaired under warranty from Onestopdigital (Hong Kong based), and it's proving a bit of a nightmare! Does this mean the EU version of the A7s will be locked down to 29.9 seconds as per the 5d?

Clive can you confirm the camera has zoom focus assist while recording?

Cheers

Pete

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

You could argue lots of things based on what other people do or do not do / need.

You could also argue that since Game of Thrones isn't filmed in low light we shouldn't be filming weddings in low light and should be lighting the scene appropriately. Hmmm....

While few (if any) of us are delivering weddings in 4K today, having the flexibility to shoot wide and crop in post on an unrepeatable event means added flexibility later on in post.

I highly doubt Game of Thrones is shot entirely in single takes so if the camera move screws up they can re-take it. Try doing that at a wedding ceremony.

Just because we don't 'need' something doesn't mean no one should think about using it.

We don't need sliders. Poeple use them to great effect. We don't need steady cam, but lots of people make awesome footage with them. We don't need 4K, but it's yet another tool in the box we can use to great advantage.

There are lots of people resisting it. That's fine. I know a pair of wedding video people still shooting in 4x3 SD and still getting bookings. So should any of us even be shooting HD today? Just saying :)

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Yep, I hadn't realised until a friend of mine who owns an A6000 showed me. Its a super feature along with the focus peaking and zebras.

The 5D mk4 may turn out to have 4k, but will it have a better codec, improved dynamic range, zero moire and aliasing, focus peaking, zebras etc etc...?

I don't think its worth waiting around for Canon if anyones debating it. At the very least, they have dropped the ball in being so far behind the competition even if it emerges the 5D4 will have 4k which isn't a certainty.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

I agree, although Photokina will be interesting with the 7D2. However, I think I'm going to pick up a GH4. I don't need the low light performance as much nowadays for corporates (only have 2 more weddings booked - yay!) and someone offered me £1380 for one of my 5D3s (only 1635 shutter accusations!), so it's more or a less a straight swap by the time I've bought an extra battery or two. Of course glass is another matter....

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Why is everyone so psyched about the 7D2? The 7D sucks! Canon isn't in the business of producing quality DSLRs for video. What gives people the idea that the 7D2 will be better if the 5D3 which is a higher model also sucks for video? My prediction is the 7D2 will be nothing special.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

I'm not psyched up at all. The 7D2 should show the direction Canon is heading in terms of video and it's also the closest we have to the S35 frame size.

The 7D sucks because relatively speaking, because it's so old now. When it was released it was considered by many be to a really serious wedding video camera (audio limitations aside). We used one for a couple of years from the back of the isle to take advantage of the crop factor. It's easy to forget where we all were just 2 or 3 years ago.

If the 7D2 has 4K and is a 1:1 pixel ration then it means that Canon has got serious again. If it's 4K and not 1:1 pixel mapping then think it will be time to drop Canon completely. That is why I think the 7D2 will be a very interesting body to watch. Add to that, we should see how Canon have (or have not) developed new sensor technology etc.

Also, if the 7D2 includes / excludes video features such as focus peaking and zebras that will also tell us a lot. Canon are very aware of the market place but have so far chosen to take us down the cinema line route. Will they continue that way and be willing to sacrifice the low end 4K video DSLR market, which they once owned, to the likes of Sony and Panasonic? I think yes in terms of serious users, but I also think the Rebel line will get 4K soon for the soccer moms!

Having a larger sensor means the 7D2 in 4K mode could easily be better than the GH4 in low light. Would that be so terrible?

My gut tells me that the 7D2 won't get all these goodies because it would have a major impact on the (now ageing) 1Dc, but I'm going to look on with interest regardless.

What we all need is competition in the market place so that which ever way we choose to go, the technology is constantly being pushed forward. When one company owns the market things stagnate.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Just wait until the GH5 comes out, I bet it will be even better then the a7s in low light and you probably will regret not to have waited for that one. There always will be something better at the horizon, I still remember from not that long ago shooting at 6db of gain and getting frustrated about all the noise in my xh-a1 footage, I still see the annoyed expressions on the guests faces when I close my eyes because of my on camera light that was blinding their view.

If I would have been given a GH4 or a AX100 back then I thought I had died and gone to heaven, we all have become very spoiled there days. :)

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Well, it's not going to have that so you might as well start preparing.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

I still feel very much that the 4k lovers are getting swept along on the excitement tide. I won't pretend that the benefits aren't very noticeable, but you have to be honest with yourself and your needs.

For me, before the announcement of the GH4 or A7s, if I was asked where I wanted improvement, my answer would have been low light, codec, moire, focus peaking, dynamic range, all before I would have said 'I wish my footage from the 6D was sharper.

So, knowing my needs it was an easy decision for me.

I still feel the GH4 is 4k rushed into a setup which cuts corners. 4k is 4k which is great, but I'm glad Sony opted to push the boundaries of codec, low light, dynamic range rather than capitalising on the consumer frenzy of 4k.

Sure, soon enough there will be a product that ticks all the boxes, but the A7s gives me all I need right now IMO.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

From what I see, the main appeal would be the low light of the A7s, because, while I don't need ISO 150,000 or whatever, a clean ISO 6400 or 12,800 would be great to have. I also would like an aisle camera at 4K so I can shoot Wider than usual, but use the one camera and be able to crop down to a medium shot with no loss.

However, knowing it will only record 4K to an external recorder really means, why bother with that for now? I can buy a 2nd camera for cheaper than I can a Shogun.

And the low light isn't necessary for me, yet.

So, while I'm tempted by the GH4 and more by the Sony A7s, I'm fine waiting another year and seeing how things shake out so I can get full value when I make the change, and whether that change is just to 4K capable, or if I'll be leaving Canon entirely.

Meantime, I can save some extra cash to be ready.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

I see more of these kind of reactions from people that don't shoot with a 4k camera and they all seem to feel the need to justify their 1080p camera which they either have or just bought and I don't understand why that is.

I think Panasonic did not cut any corners, they made a smart decision reusing the gh3 body and making it a better camera while keeping production cost down, for existing gh users that meant being able to re-use all of your accessories. I shoot weddings every week all through the season in often demanding situations and since I can shoot and show candlelit dinnerparties in the same way I can see it with my own eyes that is all I need. Would I like to have some better low light capabilities? ofcourse, but since the camera can cope with any situation I have run into now it works for my particular needs.

The cropping factor of 4K however is an addition that, as long as I can edit in a 1080p timeline which I expect to be another few years, gives me a hugh advantage as solo shooter, I need a camera that will give me the opportunity to crop out framing mistakes or give me extra angles that I can choose as I please without any visual quality loss, the a7s can do that to with a appropriate recorder but at almost 3 times the cost of a gh4 also adding to the size of the camera as you need to attach that recorder somewhere.

So that you know, I didn't get 4K camera's because I love the 4K logo on the camera only, though it looks cool, and I didn't buy a second 4K camera out of excitement. My money is hard earned and I need to be sure every cent spend is a worthwhile investment. For me at least "4K" isn't just a status symbol, 4K just made my work better as I"m able to correct framing errors and get extra cameraangles on unmanned camera's as a solo shooter and that all in post.

I'd love to have a low light full frame cam like the a7s but it won't improve my work, it will only make shooting in very dark venues much easier but not up to a point that there will be a significant difference with my gh4 as I want to expose in a way I can see with my own eyes and that is what the gh4 and also the ax100 currently can do for me.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Sorry if I missed this along the way, but as I understand it the European G4s are time limited to 29.59. Are the GH4s sold in the USA time limited or not?

Is it based on the frame rates or locations of sale?

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Same here regarding the EU time limit for the A7s - anyone have the answer?

According to this review it's still crippled: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53911011

Pete

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

As far as I know all dslr's sold in the eu have that limit build in, it needs to be a videocamera, like the ax100 to have that removed. Those timelimits are a big pain in the *** when shooting ceremonies.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Now I'm confused as this report states that all A7s regardless of region are crippled to 29 minute recording!

http://www.newsshooter.com/2014/06/2...-world-camera/

Apparently EU tax if DSLRs were classified as camcorders rather than still cameras is 5.4% which would mean about an extra £100 for the A7s - I'd be happy to pay that much more for unlimited recording

Having said that I wouldn't be using it for ceremonies/speeches so it may be no biggie :)

Pete

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Is this suspiciously cheap at £1339.50? It states full UK warranty but the low price suggests to me Hong Kong

Panamoz Sony ILCE-7s Alpha 7s A7s Full Frame CMOS Digital Camera (Body Only)

Pete

I have the GH4 and I love it. It's obviously not as awesome in lowlight as the A7S, but I have nothing but good things to say about the GH4. 4k is so fun to work with. I shot the video below this weekend. (Just a sneak peek so that's why there's no audio from the event. That will come later.)

At the 0:49 second mark the next sequence is all using one shot. Being able to crop is great.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Yeah, but it can shoot high iso, that is all you will ever need, right. :) Seriously, I don't understand why it is not possible to just up the prizes a bit for all dslr's and give unlimited recording for all camera's, or at least give you the choice and offer locked and unlocked versions at different prizes. I have been trying to shoot a ceremony recently using 2 dslr's and a handicam and I"m not doing that again, it requires some careful planning and luck and I don't like to rely on luck.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Peter - that's where i got mine from - it's legit, have bought other items from them also with no hassle. It comes from Hong Kong but they have folk in the Uk who communicate with you - they offer 2 year warranty, not sure how that works as have not had a problem with anything yet but if you don't mind imported goods then its fine. Is also a world camera, shoots PAL & ntsc formats

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

That single sequence says it all, I watched the vdeo first before reading your comment and had no idea that was done in post.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Ade can I ask how much import duties were - plus did you have to pay the Royal Mail handling charge?

I'm wary of imported goods as I'm having issues with a Samyang lens (returned for repair under warranty) that has gone missing between Heathrow and Hong Kong and I'm getting no joy from Onestopdigital - they just keep fobbing me off with 'waiting to hear from Hong Kong mail - it's been 2 months now!

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

My experience with those kind of companies is that their prizes on their website are always excluding taxes, so if you get a invoice there is no tax to deduct for your company. Buying from them would only be a advantage when their offered price would be significantly lower then what you would pay at a reputable store excl tax.or ofcourse if you don't have a company you are basically buying taxfree.

One thing that comes to mind though is service if your camera would malfunction, do they have a physical store where you could bring in the camera? I prefer to buy at a local store so I can drive by with the camera and they take care of the rest if there is a problem.

Edit: just see their prices include vat, then you have got a good deal :) Wonder how they manage to sell so cheap then? They are 700 euro below marketprice and just above the price of a gh4, thats' a lot and does sound to good to be true.

Edit 2: this is what I found back on their website:

"10. Will I have to pay any import taxes and duties, such as VAT?

You will not have to pay any. Our prices are all inclusive. All import and customs charges will be covered by us fully, and will be billed to our shipping account directly. You will not be billed."

Just as I expected, on the salespage it says vat included and their faq says there is no vat...so the mentioned price is exl vat but they won't bill it, that's not legal but no-one seems to mind :)

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

I paid no duties - Panamoz say they will refund you the money if you do get stung but this is my 3rd transaction with them, all for decent amounts and not had to pay anything over the price you quoted. Not sure how they get round it but hey, I'm not complaining

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

The highlight roll off on the GH4 is awful and the image looks overly sharpened, even after turning down the sharpness in the profile settings. I can't put my finger on it but something about the GH4 image put me off even after trying to grade it (where it falls apart horribly imo). The image of the GH4 is so lackluster that its only advantage over current cameras is the 4K which will be horribly overshadowed in future cameras in my opinion.

The A7s makes a great B cam but does not work well as a main camera. It has a VERY good image that is very flexible for being only 8 bit but it's a very fiddly camera with awful ergonomics. Also the rolling shutter and battery life are terrible.

Skin tones on both cameras are poor but correctable in post.

If you're not invested in either and don't have a need for stills, pick up a used C100 and save yourself the headache of having to buy ND filters and lenses.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

This is an interesting thread. Many interesting opinions and experiences. Each to their own.
The ability to crop with 4k looks great. In reality I'm shooting with a C100 in 1080p but giving my clients SD dvds or 720p masters. Nobody asks for more here. I offer Blurays but only have one client who wants them and he's an architect, is a bit crazy and loves tech. Anyway, I have a reasonable crop to play with but more is sometimes more!
I have a C100 and it's been great after using a PD170, 7D and 700D, which were all great as well. The only things I miss from smaller cams is the weight ( C100 is quite a bit heavier than any dslr but on par with the PD170) and the cost.
Everyone has their criteria when buying a camera, mine was great low light, long recording times, ND filters ( I live in a very sunny city, Madrid), peaking ( my eyes are getting old), xlrs, etc
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to replace my b-cam, a 700D, with either of these fine cameras, but i think it's best to pick a brand and stick with it as lenses are very costly.
I was seriously thinking about a Sony fs100, vg30 and nex5n combo. All are great cams but none as great as my A cam, the C100.
Pick what suits you, enjoy it and make money ( or art)! It's great to have so many quality choices!

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Edward, I have no doubt that you know your stuff (and have benefited from your advice in the past - thank you!). I have read similar opinions regarding skin tones on the GH4 camera... but to say that the image falls apart horribly when grading is surely an overstatement? When perusing videos shot with the GH4, I don't sit there and pick at the skin tones (although they're likely fixed in post) or explain how the image has fallen apart with said grading. In fact, a great number of videographers are saying that the GH4 is great using the Cinelike D setting, although exposures are harder to match, which is why zebras come in handy - I don't deny that skin tones are lacking though when compared to a Black Magic Camera.

How will its 4K feature become horribly overshadowed? By the time said cameras come out, the GH5 will be in the market place. At this present moment in time, at a price point of £1300, surely it is safe to call it a great camera? It shoots 8bit 4:2:0 (Edited) at 100mbps (not that I'm certain what 4:2:2 means! Ha!), which had everyone raving upon its release. Also, you can shoot 10 bit with the adaptor if the user is crazy about getting the most out of the image in post.

For a £1300 camera, I think the GH4 is a landmark camera. I think people forget the cost and comparing it to a Sony A7S constantly becomes slightly idiotic when you place the prices alongside each other (HK imports excluded). They are two completely different beasts. As Noa has said repeatedly, the A7S requires almost 3 times the cost of the GH4 to record 4K. Add in the A7s' shortcomings, as stated in your post (battery and ergonomic downfalls), and it looks like much less of a camera when compared with the C100 - which is more closely linked to the price of the A7S plus 4K recorder. Never mind comparing it to the GH4... which is a much cheaper camera than the A7S, yet shows its strengths by bringing genuine legitimacy and argument when compared with a camera almost twice its RRP (A7S).

For those of us invested in M4/3 glass, the GH4 is a God send.

I'd be interested in shooting with a Black Magic Camera, if it wasn't for their willingness to push forward more devices, rather than refining what is already out.

For weddings? Surely the GH4 is surplus to requirements?

I would of course love to be invested in Canon glass and have the ability to shoot with a C100!!! But I don't have that luxury. A part of me is thankful for this however, as I believe Panasonic are going to continue to strive to do everything that they can to make the GH series the best video camera at its price point. As long as they continue to do this, then I will continue to invest in M4/3 glass and benefit from the smaller form factor and excellent battery life with features like peaking and zebras!

Not knocking your post though - the C100 has surely provided you with stunning IQ, files and features that some of us can only dream about! I just think that some people are expecting too much of the GH4... it's only just outside the range of a prosumer camcorder... when compared to one another, it's insane to consider the prosumer camcorder when considering the benefits of the GH4.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Ah yeah I totally understand. I guess I was approaching the situation as someone who was not vested in any system and they were purchasing to cover any and all situations.

Again I don't think the GH4 or A7s cover most of the situations during weddings. Then again the C100 does not: it is larger and does not have slow motion.

When it boils down to the GH4 vs A7s it all depends on the shooter and their needs. Do you favor a razor sharp 4k image in an ergonomic camera or a filmic 1080p look with terrible ergonomics? I favor the look the A7s over the GH4 much more aside from the crop-ability but it can be so clunky to work with.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

It will be shipped from Hong Kong. Panamoz smuggle cameras in & evade customs duty & VAT by under declaring the value on the packages. The recipient is responsible for payment of customs duty & VAT whatever the sender may have labelled the package as.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Panamoz smuggle the cameras. You enter into a criminal conspiracy to evade customs duty & VAT when you order from Panamoz. You do a disservice to local retailers who cannot compete with crooks. There is also the moral aspect as you are effectively stealing from us law abiding citizens who do pay correct taxes that are used to pay for schools & hospitals etc.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

It brings us back to the age old question - 'why do we pay more in the UK than the rest of the world for our electronic goods?'

Even Vince cable said the government should do more to stop 'rip off Britain'

From the news today - The great gadget price rip-off: How Britons are still paying hundreds of pounds more for the same products as American customers | Mail Online

I enquired with Panamoz who informed me that they are responsible for import charges which are billed directly to their shipping account - If this is the case In what way does this differ from 'grey imports' which seem to be more acceptable?

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

The odd item I have bought from India has been marked as camera parts and devalued to a crazy level! I think my stedicam which cost $1270 came in with a value of $34.00!

We are slightly different here. We don't pay any duty on cameras that come in as imports BUT if they are over $1000 then we have to pay 10% General Sales Tax, not only on the item but the shipping costs too.

I have bought two sets of Panasonic cameras from Global Media Pro based in New Zealand and they are very strict with prices and won't de-value them even by one cent so I paid the GST on every item I bought from them. The Hong Kong dealers seem to enjoy trying to buck the system. With warranty yes, their advertised warranty is genuine BUT you have to ship the item back to the dealer in HK who then send it to Japan for repair or replacement ...fair enough it only costs you shipping but you would probably be without a camera for quite a few months which, for our business is an issue!

The way I see it with imports they are actually all "grey goods" my Pannys were made in Japan and had 100% genuine serial numbers and I could register them but all repair centres here will not touch them as they were not shipped from Australia. I think the only difference is a jacked up price which helps cover the local repair centres cover warranty costs and cover local support. With my latest Sony's the camera serials are Australian and that gives me local warranty and support. I would say that's where the price difference comes in.

I wonder what the manufacture plate says on the A7S cameras ..My Nikons I bought were made in Japan and some Nikon lenses also are made in Japan but the kit lenses (which I sold off) came from China and Thailand ???

However it still seems that VAT is a big rip off! People who are using cameras for fun at home should have to pay VAT but professional videographers should really be tax exempt!!

Chris

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

I understood the 100mb/s mode to be 4:2:0 internally and 4:2:2 externally. Is this incorrect?

Also, has anyone found evidence that it's true 10 bit 4:2:2 externally (HDMI) rather than an 8 bit 4:2:0 in a 10 bit 4:2:2 wrapper like so many other cameras do? I'm hoping it's a true 10 bit 4:2:2 since that's what they are using to get things to the SDI ports on the expansion unit.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

As a professional you cannot be tax exempt but if you have a turnover greater than £81K they must be registered for VAT & will be able to reclaim any VAT they pay not just on cameras but on anything purchased by way of the business. This is fine for commercial work & you may opt to register even if your turnover is below the tax threshold, The downside if your customers are all consumers e.g. you are a wedding videographer is that you must charge them VAT on your services thus raising prices compared to your competitors who are not VAT registered.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

My apologies.

It's 4:2:0 to SD card in 8 bit.
And 4:2:2 to external recorder via mini HDMI in 8 or 10 bit.

And it's 'real time' 10 bit 4:2:2 externally... I'm sure Philip Bloom said 'true 10 bit' in his review, but I can't recall exactly. Again, I'm new to codec stuff... I need to learn more about it.

Ah that makes a lot of sense, Edward. I'm with you: if I owned a C100, I wouldn't be considering either the A7S or the GH4. I would however, be mightily interested in the update of the C100 and be hoping that it's 4K.

Fair comment about the C100 though, I would be interested in shooting slow motion... so in that regard, which slow motion camera would you choose?

What about using a grading tool such as Film Convert? Would you still get unacceptable graded images with the GH4? I need to research this more...

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

I'm gonna through a curve ball in here..... I DO have a C100, it's my go to camera. I hate the crappy look from Canon DSLRs now - yet I'm still considering the GH4 for 4K mode and for doing 1080p slow-mo......that and it's light enough to get up in to the air on a multirotor.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Hmmm I think they're amazing for drone stuff... I love the GH line up, don't get me wrong... I just think that if I'd spent as much as I have on the M4/3 line up on the Canon line up for wedding videos, I think I'd be a happier person right about now with a C100.

That said, the weight and size advantage is fantastic... and I love the M4/3 lens line up - especially the 75 f1.8 and the 25 f1.4 - heck, even the 12 f2 - and I have yet to get the 42.5mm f1.2.

I know slow mo is supposed to be soft at 96fps and I also know that I know little about grading - other than what I've learned from Rob Adams and Ray Roman (on their courses via CL, which I've watched loads), but the GH3 and 4 yield IQ that has had people ask me, "Wow, what do you shoot with?" including wedding videographers who are kitted out with 5Ds - not to say that they were more impressed with the HD quality from my GH3, but that it is more than adequate.

Can't wait to shoot more weddings though... when looking at my last film, I missed a couple of hours here and there because I was a groomsmen, whereas at my next two weddings I'm just the videographer... going to have a lot more time to be creative and get more footage.

Anyways... back to the thread topic...

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Yep I've graded GH4 footage with Film Convert and Impulz and the result was okay. It doesn't hold up well under less than ideal low light situations (1600 or higher) if you plan on grading it. Then again, I was shooting with Cinelike-d presets using a few custom picture profiles (forgot which ones). If I had kept the camera, I would be testing alternatives to Cinelike-d for grading, much like S-log 2 on the A7s is not all it's hyped up to be.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Agreed I love the C100.

I'm currently selling one of my 5D3 bodies (< 1650 clicks) if any one is interested. It works perfectly but I rarely use it since it no longer suits my needs. I'm going to keep the other one for photos only.

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Some more stuff on the A7s from Philip Bloom

The evolving review of the Sony A7s now with extreme low light video. | Philip Bloom

Interesting to note that Philip got his from Digitalrev.com - a company that imports from Hong Kong!!!!!

Re: A7s or GH4 - which for you?
 

Peter, why is that noteworthy? Buying from DigitalRev isn't illegal or anything.

Phillip, like myself simply wanted to get his hands on it as soon as he could. And save £350!