Sony HC1 Cineframe Rocks

R.P. Cuenco · January 26th, 2006, 10:51 PM

WHAT?! stop the presses! 'real' 24p from CF24?! what are you guys smoking? raise the bs flag! j/k, ill check it out. thanks!

Graham Hickling · January 26th, 2006, 11:00 PM

Heh heh! No smokin', sadly!

I have not been following the whole CF24 saga in past months because initially I didnt have a Sony, and then more recently I wasn't even aware that my HC1 had a cinema mode.

All I can tell you is that Cineform has added this "remove pulldown" feature to the recent versions of HDLink, and it sure seemed to do the business on the footage I shot today!

R.P. Cuenco · January 26th, 2006, 11:21 PM

so i assume this is all being done as you capture in real time?
sucks that im on a mac (ironically, eh?), any mac solutions? i know dvfilm maker is there but it takes too stinkin long!

Graham Hickling · January 27th, 2006, 12:03 AM

Interesting question - HDLink captures to a .m2t and then converts that to an AVI....I have it set to discard the .m2t automatically. I assume the .m2t transfer is just raw data so the pulldown removal will be during the conversion.

On my sad and puny 3.0GHz Pentium4, if I capture a 5-minute clip it takes an extra 2 minutes or so to at the end to finish the conversion to the 24p cineform avi. Certainly faster than Maker, which I checked out recently on this same machine (and which itself was much faster than the various After Effects plugin options).

I guess Virtualdub doesn't run on a Mac? - you could remove pulldown with that, or with avisynth.

Graham Hickling · January 27th, 2006, 07:24 AM

I have posted two enlarged sections of footage of a resolution chart, to give people an idea of the extent to which we will lose detail when shooting in 'cinema mode' on the Sony HC1.

Here's a down-rezzed snapshot of the full frames that were captured, just so that you can orient yourself:
http://home.att.net/~ghickling/res_chart.jpg

This is an cropped section of raw 1080i60 footage:
http://home.att.net/~ghickling/hc1_1080i60.tif (479KB)

And here is the equivalent section cropped from raw 'cinema mode' 1080p24 footage, demonstrating the resolution hit associated with this mode:
http://home.att.net/~ghickling/hc1_cinema_mode.tif (496KB)

Graham Hickling · January 27th, 2006, 08:16 AM

Given that Cinema mode disables the option of manually setting shutter speed, I wonder if it locks the speed itself? And if so at what?

(Pure speculation here, but .... if it doesn't fix the shutter that might help explain why some people have been happier with the mode than others. Shooting 24p at high shutter speeds caused by bright conditions would look very stroboscopic.)

Greg Boston · January 27th, 2006, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.P. Cuenco

so i assume this is all being done as you capture in real time?
sucks that im on a mac (ironically, eh?), any mac solutions? i know dvfilm maker is there but it takes too stinkin long!

FCP5 will do this for you. Check your capture presets.

-gb-

R.P. Cuenco · January 27th, 2006, 05:03 PM

I just did, and i can only get the standard HDV settings. either native or intermediate and they cant be edited.

Steve Mullen · January 30th, 2006, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham Hickling

Given that Cinema mode disables the option of manually setting shutter speed, I wonder if it locks the speed itself? And if so at what?

In an ideal world at 24fps it would lock the shutter at 1/50th second, but it may do 1/60th.

Does it prevent you from setting shutter-speed or -- as posted earlier -- prevent you from biasing the AE? These are two different things.

Graham Hickling · January 30th, 2006, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Does it prevent you from setting shutter-speed or -- as posted earlier -- prevent you from biasing the AE?

Both!

The shutter speed option in the menu system becomes greyed-out. In addition, the AE button on the side of the camera stops responding.

Duane Prince · January 30th, 2006, 07:55 PM

It also goes into an auto-iris mode, which you can't disable, which kills it, for me, using this function...

Steve Mullen · February 2nd, 2006, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duane Prince

It also goes into an auto-iris mode, which you can't disable, which kills it, for me, using this function...

Maybe!

If it sets the shutter-speed at either 1/50th or 1/60th then there is inherently only one iris setting that delivers a "correct" exposure.

If the AE system is accurate -- as it is on the FX1 -- that is the iris you would want to set.

OK -- it might be nice to alter the exposure for creative reasons, but the low latitude of single chp camcorders does NOT really allow you to play with the exposure. Open the iris a bit and highlights bleach-out. Close the iris a bit and shadows go black.

The goal should be to bring optimally exposed -- as indicated by the histogram display -- back to your NLE where you can get creative.

The real disadvantage of not having iris control is that you can't lock the iris.

Mark Hoff · March 3rd, 2006, 09:14 PM

Just wondering, I've seen a lot of complaining about the loss in resolution in this format. So what's all the buzz about? Is it because it's 24fps progressive?
Wouldn't it just be better to deinterlace a 60fps picture? Does the 24fps rate help with low light?

Regards,

Mark

Alex Thames · March 4th, 2006, 12:59 AM

Could someone explain what HD Link is to me please? (Very new to all this).

Also, I would appreciate explanation about why high shutter speeds caused by bright conditions, shooting at 24p would cause strobe-like effects?

In fact, speaking of shutter speeds, could someone just explain the whole concept of shutter speed to me? Thanks.

Graham Hickling · March 4th, 2006, 01:11 PM

HDLink is a slim little standalone application that 'captures' HDV footage off your camera onto your computer via firewire. You can specify the resulting file to be a raw .m2t transport stream, a Cineform-codec transcoded avi file, or both.

It will also write .mts files back to your camera.

With AspectHD installed, 'capture' and 'write to tape' functions in Premiere do essentially the same thing, but with a greater pull on system resources.

Regarding the strobing effect: all video cameras break reality up into stationary moments flashed back at you at 24 frames per second, or 60 fields per second, or whatever. Each of those moments is like a still photo - if an object is moving while the photo is taken it will be blurred. The blur is controlled by how long the "shutter" is open. A 1/1000sec exposure of a man waving his arm will be crisp shot of the arm at one point in space. A 1/24th second will be a blurred arc of the arm travelling several inches through space.

If you play a series of 1/1000 shots of a waving arm at 24fps it "strobes": in other words the arm jumps robotically from fixed position to fixed position, with no visual information in each intervening space.

If you play a series of 1/24 exposures at 24fps the blur in each frame links to the blur in the next ... and so the overall effect is smoothly blurred motion, much like the human eye perceives.

January 26th, 2006, 10:51 PM	#16
R.P. Cuenco Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Concord, CA Posts: 118	WHAT?! stop the presses! 'real' 24p from CF24?! what are you guys smoking? raise the bs flag! j/k, ill check it out. thanks! __________________ Letus35 Flip on HC1 FCP5 w/ Intel Mac Mini and Powerbook Ti G4

January 26th, 2006, 11:21 PM	#18
R.P. Cuenco Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Concord, CA Posts: 118	so i assume this is all being done as you capture in real time? sucks that im on a mac (ironically, eh?), any mac solutions? i know dvfilm maker is there but it takes too stinkin long! __________________ Letus35 Flip on HC1 FCP5 w/ Intel Mac Mini and Powerbook Ti G4

January 27th, 2006, 07:24 AM	#20
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	HC1 'Cinema mode' resolution test I have posted two enlarged sections of footage of a resolution chart, to give people an idea of the extent to which we will lose detail when shooting in 'cinema mode' on the Sony HC1. Here's a down-rezzed snapshot of the full frames that were captured, just so that you can orient yourself: http://home.att.net/~ghickling/res_chart.jpg This is an cropped section of raw 1080i60 footage: http://home.att.net/~ghickling/hc1_1080i60.tif (479KB) And here is the equivalent section cropped from raw 'cinema mode' 1080p24 footage, demonstrating the resolution hit associated with this mode: http://home.att.net/~ghickling/hc1_cinema_mode.tif (496KB)

January 27th, 2006, 08:16 AM	#21
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	Hmmm...what's the deal with shutter speed, then? Given that Cinema mode disables the option of manually setting shutter speed, I wonder if it locks the speed itself? And if so at what? (Pure speculation here, but .... if it doesn't fix the shutter that might help explain why some people have been happier with the mode than others. Shooting 24p at high shutter speeds caused by bright conditions would look very stroboscopic.)

January 27th, 2006, 05:03 PM	#23
R.P. Cuenco Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Concord, CA Posts: 118	I just did, and i can only get the standard HDV settings. either native or intermediate and they cant be edited. __________________ Letus35 Flip on HC1 FCP5 w/ Intel Mac Mini and Powerbook Ti G4

January 26th, 2006, 11:00 PM	#17
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	Heh heh! No smokin', sadly! I have not been following the whole CF24 saga in past months because initially I didnt have a Sony, and then more recently I wasn't even aware that my HC1 had a cinema mode. All I can tell you is that Cineform has added this "remove pulldown" feature to the recent versions of HDLink, and it sure seemed to do the business on the footage I shot today!

January 27th, 2006, 12:03 AM	#19
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	Interesting question - HDLink captures to a .m2t and then converts that to an AVI....I have it set to discard the .m2t automatically. I assume the .m2t transfer is just raw data so the pulldown removal will be during the conversion. On my sad and puny 3.0GHz Pentium4, if I capture a 5-minute clip it takes an extra 2 minutes or so to at the end to finish the conversion to the 24p cineform avi. Certainly faster than Maker, which I checked out recently on this same machine (and which itself was much faster than the various After Effects plugin options). I guess Virtualdub doesn't run on a Mac? - you could remove pulldown with that, or with avisynth.

January 30th, 2006, 07:55 PM	#26
Duane Prince Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: central AZ. Posts: 36	It also goes into an auto-iris mode, which you can't disable, which kills it, for me, using this function... __________________ tumbleweed

March 3rd, 2006, 09:14 PM	#28
Mark Hoff New Boot Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 18	What's the advantage of Cineframe? Just wondering, I've seen a lot of complaining about the loss in resolution in this format. So what's all the buzz about? Is it because it's 24fps progressive? Wouldn't it just be better to deinterlace a 60fps picture? Does the 24fps rate help with low light? Regards, Mark

March 4th, 2006, 12:59 AM	#29
Alex Thames Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: New York Posts: 508	Could someone explain what HD Link is to me please? (Very new to all this). Also, I would appreciate explanation about why high shutter speeds caused by bright conditions, shooting at 24p would cause strobe-like effects? In fact, speaking of shutter speeds, could someone just explain the whole concept of shutter speed to me? Thanks.

March 4th, 2006, 01:11 PM	#30
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	HDLink is a slim little standalone application that 'captures' HDV footage off your camera onto your computer via firewire. You can specify the resulting file to be a raw .m2t transport stream, a Cineform-codec transcoded avi file, or both. It will also write .mts files back to your camera. With AspectHD installed, 'capture' and 'write to tape' functions in Premiere do essentially the same thing, but with a greater pull on system resources. Regarding the strobing effect: all video cameras break reality up into stationary moments flashed back at you at 24 frames per second, or 60 fields per second, or whatever. Each of those moments is like a still photo - if an object is moving while the photo is taken it will be blurred. The blur is controlled by how long the "shutter" is open. A 1/1000sec exposure of a man waving his arm will be crisp shot of the arm at one point in space. A 1/24th second will be a blurred arc of the arm travelling several inches through space. If you play a series of 1/1000 shots of a waving arm at 24fps it "strobes": in other words the arm jumps robotically from fixed position to fixed position, with no visual information in each intervening space. If you play a series of 1/24 exposures at 24fps the blur in each frame links to the blur in the next ... and so the overall effect is smoothly blurred motion, much like the human eye perceives.