This is the way cameras looked a decade ago. It seems to be either an error in the camera OR a problem when NTSC/PAL is generated.

1) Are you viewing on an HD monitor?

2) Have you tried reducing exposure?

I can back christian up here. I can also back up most of the other people posting here.

Let me explain. I think the red balance is an issue--there seems to be a very fine margin of error on white balance/color saturation/exposure.

When you see guys like Christian and I getting frustrated with it, its because we're used to cameras like the PD170, etc. working *acceptably* in all circumstances on full Auto. With the A1U you have to watch out more, make more minor adjustments (which is hard b/c the buttons are small) and just generally "work harder" to get a decent shot.

I've tested two other HC1 units at local best buys and the results have been the same: In some cases, the Reds shift to a garish pink. kicking the ae up a stop only makes the shot underexposed. frustrating, but not impossible to work around. Either way, it's better than the HD10 ;-)

I hope you are joking since the JVCs have none of the "funny" (yet very real) image issues.

These reports confirm my impression the Sonys' CAN yield a pastel look unless you are careful.

HERE's SOMETHING I WROTE A DECADE AGO ABOUT THE FIRST 1 CCD DV CAMCORDERS:

All NTSC video cameras have an Automatic Limiter Circuit (ALC) that keeps chroma levels from exceeding acceptable limits. (Red must be limited otherwise, when a TV separates luma from chroma, the red signal will contaminate the luma signal. The result is "cross color" artifacts that appear as "squiggles" on red objects.)

The ALC in a three-chip camera can analyze the red, blue, and green signals and more precisely alter the RGB signals before they are converted to luminance (Y) plus red (Y–R) and blue (Y–B) color difference signals.

The ALC in a single-chip camcorder can only alter the red (Y–R) and blue (Y–B) color difference signals. (Think of the ALC being nearly colorblind.) This can introduce unwanted color shifts. For example, if a very bright red flower is imaged, the ALC may slightly reduce the red difference signal relative to the blue difference signal causing the flower to become “pinkish.” (Because blue naturally has less luminance than red, it less likely to shift to magenta.)

-----------------

The A1 and HC1 are behaving like this, but they shoud NOT. There is no reason to limited red with HD and the CMOS feeds RGB to the DSP chip.

So I can't explain it -- except to say that FOR SOME REASON the Y-R component IS or BECOMES lower than the Y-B component. Either Sony missed this "bug" or it is inherent to the CMOS/DSP system they are using.

I wonder how Sony has been able to sell the A1 to pros? And, will they bring out a new A1 at NAB.

Or, is it a factory calibration issue that can be fixed?

Steve, I think you've described the problem very well.

Perhaps this is naive of me but .... if this isn't a problem in the A1, doesn't that suggest that it should be fixable via firmware in the HC1?

I thought some people with A1s had this problem too?

UPDATED EXPLANATION

All NTSC video cameras have circuitry that keeps chroma levels from exceeding acceptable limits. (Red must be limited otherwise, when a television separates luma from chroma, the red signal will contaminate the luma signal. The result is "cross color" artifacts that appear as "squiggles" on red objects.)

A three-chip camera can monitor Red, Green, and Blue signals and precisely control them before they are converted to luminance (Y) plus red (Y–R) and blue (Y–B) color difference signals.

A single-chip camcorder can monitor and alter only the Red (Y–R) and Blue (Y–B) color difference signals. If there is an intense red or orange object in a scene, the Red difference signal (Y–R) must be limited. This can cause the red/orange object to become "pale" or “pinkish” because the Blue difference signal is less limited. Thus red is diluted with blue. (Because blue naturally has less intensity than red, it less likely to shift to magenta.)

An HD camcorder should not need to limit chroma, but the HC1 and A1 do exhibit a similar problem with both deep and bright reds. To help reduce this problem, be sure to avoid using AWB.

Thanks for that Steve.
I'm assuming that PAL cams work the same way? i.e. that this isn't an NTSC only problem? I've read reports from people with PAL cams complaining about the 'red' problem too.

Alex - yes i've read about people saying the same thing on A1s too so i don't *think* it's anything to do with differences between A1 and HC1.

This is just my opinion, but I believe that, ultimately, the "why" doesn't really matter if we don't have the ability to change it. All we can do is work within the limitations of the equipment we have.

I would like to think that people would do research BEFORE spending a couple thousand dollars or more on a camera, yet an amazing number of people who make substantial purchases (by my feeble financial standards) don't know the capabilities or limitations of their equipment until AFTER they buy. Early adopters should expect to run this risk, but others? I can't really blame Sony or any other manufacturer for any camera that has been out for a while which has limitations I could be aware of before making the purchase.

If the HDR-HC1 didn't provide repeatable color results under repeated conditions (it does) then I would see it as a problem. Otherwise, it requires some tweaking (as does every camera --- no camera is perfect).

I figure that I can throw an ExpoDisc lens cap on it (or the "three-coffee-filter" DIY model) for speed or use a REAL white balance card and accept it as it is. There really isn't anything else that can be done with this "problem", is there?

Well, for me personally, of course I've done research before buying. It seems that no everyone with a HC1/A1 has a red problem, which I'm curious to know why. I guess I'm also hoping to get one that doesn't have the problem, and if it does, I know there are some ways to deal with it to some extent. That, and I don't feel that the red misrepresentation is too horrible anyways, just annoying.

Normally I would agree. But this is a much more subtle issue. I didn't catch it. I only noticed the colors looked a bit "pastel." But, I'm used to Sony cameras always being too blue for my taste. (Which is why I love my JVC HDV.)

The fact that it's subtle means it has taken a long time to be reported. So folks would not have seen negative reports if they had looked.

But, subtle doesn't mean it's not very real. For a decade I wouldn't buy JVC camcorders because they had orangish reds -- not true reds. To me very obvious. But, I bought Sony camcorders even though very bright reds went pink.

What's different now is that HD should remove all these problems. They are not present with any other HD camcorder. So, Sony is responsible for not getting this problem fixed before releasing the HC1/A1. And, it can be a deal breaker for some.

By the way -- in the late 50's, no saturated reds were allowed on set. When red was required, brownish-red was used. That prevented the "cross color" arifacts. This has been an NTSC -- and likely PAL -- issue from day 1.

Just curious, are the people having problems with the reds noticing this problem in SD mode, HDV mode or both?

AFTER MORE RESEARCH ON NTSC--I'VE UPDATED MY UNDERSTANDING:

In the NTSC system, the distinction between color tones is called hue and is carried by the phase of a chrominance component. (Hue is distinct from color saturation and color intensity.)

Saturation is the degree to which a color is different than white. For example, white, light pink, pink, or red.) The amplitude of a chrominance component carries saturation.
Whether a red is a “dark red” or a “bright red” is determined by the amplitude of the luminance signal—not a chrominance component.

The “I” (orange-cyan) and “Q” (green-magenta) components—plus the luma element—are mixed to generate an NTSC signal. In the process, it is possible for the amplitude of a chroma component (representing color saturation) to add with that of the luma component (representing color brightness) and create an illegal signal. Therefore, chroma amplitude (saturation) must be limited by the camera’s DSP. If the chroma amplitude is over-limited, a color will be desaturated. For example, bright "red" is will become "pink."

Analog SD “component-color” (BetaSP) plus digital SD (DV) and HD formats do not mix chroma and luma together and thus should not suffer from chroma saturation problems. Nevertheless, some single-chip, digital camcorders do have a problem with saturated colors.

My last posting on this red issue:

As luck would have it, there was a bright red car parked right outside of my apartment. I shot footage of the car on auto, and with about 10 different tweaks with the A1. 9 of those tweaks were abominable. 1 had a "acceptable" (not great) reds.

I shot the same footage with my PDX10 on full auto, and outdoor white balance modes. Both had perfect reds.

I'm too lazy to log, capture and post that comparison online, but needless to say, I'm p**sed. I have funding for a DOC that I'm shooting mid may to mid june that I need to have HD for, and this seemed like the only camera that fit the bill. I'm going to have to bite the bullet and keep it for the duration of the movie and then resell. This is not an acceptable problem to keep having.

Try white balancing to a pale blue or pale green card.

Steve you are absolutely RIGHT!

I have recently bought the HC1, and I checked the red representation right away.I did not find anything wrong with red untill I read your post. Then I did a test to shoot the BRIGHT red, I just took some shots on a shining red led of my optical mouse, and find the brightest part of the red LED looks pinkish! So HC1 does have this problem although I have not had this situation in my regular usage.

Well basically I could accept this because I will seldom have the chance to shoot a red light. I am just curious that why you think HD should not have this problem? From what you described, it should be exsiting for all one chip machines, isn't it?

I purchased my HC-1 just before Christmas. Using it during the Holidays, the colored lights and presents - including Red - looked fine. I had studied all the reports on this forum from the early adopters before I purchased it. Nobody mentioned the red color problem until this last month. I've used the HC-1 in wintery Minnesota and on a Cruise in the Carribean, not much red, and everything looked great. Even the sunsets look good, if your really study them they may be very, very slightly pink, but not noticeably so. However,the other day I shot a red airplane, outside in late morning filtered sunlight. The red is NOTICEABLY PINK. I did NOT have a UV filter on that day, but always did in the past. Some one sugested that maybe the UV filter helps? Has anyone experimented more with this?

NTSC mixes chroma and luma while HD does not -- unless you output NTSC. So I'm assuming this issue should not arise. But:

1) There must be a limit to the saturation value so it could still occur -- so you ask a good question.

2) The is another thing in common between the HC1/A1 and most NTSC camcorders -- they use Bayer filters. Which would mean it makes no difference whether a CCD or CMOS or NTSC or HD is used. Interestingly, the JVC HDV doesn't have this problem and doesn't use a Bayer filter. But, the HC3 -- one assumes -- does, and it doesn't have the problem. So I think #2 is not likely.

Now here's the big puzzle. Why does bright red not simply go up to a certain level of red and stay there? How does "red" go from pink to rose to red and then jump back to pink. It's like the signal goes up to the max red and starts over at pink!

I've got to think about this.

DAVE: "1 had a "acceptable" (not great) reds." What was the tweek?

There has been considerable discussion on the web with regard to various CMOS based digital cameras having issues with reds. At one point I stumbled onto some "astrophotography" sites where people complained about poor reds from digital cameras, especially those that are CMOS based. The conclusion is that the greater the intensity of the red, the more it overwhelms the ability of the sensors to discriminate accurate color. I guess I figured that it was just the way CMOS sensors currently behave and that I just have to accept it if I wanted the HDR-HC1.

If a subject is predominantly red, some digital cameras using auto white balance will view the subject as having a "warm" color cast and then compensate and end up creating a blue color cast. Some digital cameras are worse than others. For these, a manual white balance solves (most of) the issues.

It is obvious that the problem is real and I won’t debate that. However, it is also obvious that there is nothing we can do to change the camera (outside of a currently non-existent firmware upgrade that may or may not do anything); it is what it is.

I remain skeptical of anecdotal evidence. Not everyone conducts tests in the same manner or accurately (different intensities of red from different sources, different camera settings, filters or no filters, different light sources, different altitudes affecting UV, different materials used for manual white balance such as printer paper, etc).

That said, I do think there is a high amount of blue relative to the red (a Sony trademark?), but it still seems that a manual WB should solve (most of) this.

What we really need (and by we, I mean someone else) :-) is to move on to creating practical methods for preventing and mitigating the “reds” issue.



Test to determine under which conditions the problem occurs (so we can avoid them or better prepare):

- Is the effect the same when shooting red lights as opposed to other red objects?

- Does it occur more often under one type of light than another?

- Does exposure have any effect?


Identify “fixes”

- Perhaps more or less light

- Different light source?

- UV filters?

- Enhancing filters?

- Manual white balance? Using a real neutral balance card as opposed to random objects?


Identify post processes to minimize the effect.

- Color correction, color matching


... or maybe we just have to live with it?

About red light... isn't light a serie of on/off flickering in the speed of the Hertzrate you have in your country? In US that would be 60 per second and Europe it's 50 per second. I am just curious and it might have something to do with the problem.

I tried to screw my UV-filter on and off. If the colour was non-reflective red it seemed to keep the red slightly better with UV-filter. But it was hardly noticable. When I looked at some red with reflective surface it lost some of the red colour.

Can anyone who has the problem with red take some pictures of objects that are common e g a Coke-bottle should be fairly similar or red paper binder. It would be nice to see a variation of red objects and different surfaces.

The problem may be compounded by Sony's blue bias. And, the only reason I'm "in to" the issue of WHY is because it shouldn't be happening with HD -- except if you use Composite Out. Moreover, I've never seen it on an HD camcorder, except the HC1/A1. And, the word "overwhelms" is a real description of WHY.

So, yes it would be nice to have a few tips. Clearly, avoiding AWB is a good idea since it is never that accurate. Full Manual seems right. Using tinted "White" Balance card would seem another option. Try one of the "warming" cards.

None of the others are CMOS based...

Folks claim its not a problem with the HC3 which is CMOS.

A different sensor (already used in the DCR-DVD505)...

"...this sensor also uses a different CFA (Color Filter Array) layout which has six green photosites for each red and blue, hence increasing effective luminance sensitivity but decreasing chroma (color) sensitivity and resolution."

http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1138169251.html

Different yes -- but nothing in the description in any way explains why the color should be different.

But, it does raise several interesting questions:

1) The A1/HC1 CMOS already offers more HD video resolution than ANY HD camcorder -- so of what value is 1.4X more for HD video. (Companies keep thinking folks are going to take stills with their video camera, but every review of these attempts reports the efforts to be a failure. Flash is usually needed for a good still camera, for example. The A1 has no flash.)

2) Do we really want less chroma rez for HD video?

3) Will Sony keep the current CMOS in the A1 or switch to the new one? If the new chip really is better, as many claim, and they don't upgrade the A1, how will Sony deal with their "pro" camcorder recording lower quality video?

4) The DSP in the HC1 and A1 is very sophisticated. The A1 brochure makes a big deal of how it handles high-contrast scenes! No mention of what DSP is in the HC3.

5) At NAB could there be a new "A1" with the new CMOS and the current DSP?

Some comparison images !!!
 

Hi,

I promised a while ago to set up some images takem with the HC1. FINALLY - here is where you can find them:

http://www.dextrel.net/photogallery/real.htm

ALL shots at normal factory defaults. The focussing was manual.

Reading comments here and elsewhere it seems that there IS noticeable variation from unit to unit in the color rendering in the HC1 (an also other CMOS models from Sony??). It seems also that this red color problem is fixed at least to a certain extent in the HC3. So Sony HAS done something about this malfuction - it has NOT gone unnoticed by their engineers.

Remember, these pics that I display are taken in the STILL image mode and you can still (pun intended) see the same problem in the color rendering as in the video modes. Still images are processed without any NTSC, PAL or MPG2 processing limitations - just postprocessed, matrixed and compacted in JPEG format.

The CMOS sensor produces three independent outputs in the RBG format. Digitally - since the AD converters are on-chip. Eiter the CMOS sensor in internally very nonlinear - or - the color post processing is inferior or not able to compensate (at least with this firmware version) for some shortcomings in the CMOS sensor.

Please also remember that there are many CMOS based professional quality cameras that produce fantastic color reality. So I would not blame this on the CMOS technology itself. It just happens to be the new kid in the block that takes the blame. Or then the sensor is really a flop and Sony is able to manage the output somehow with good DSP processing.

It is vell known that Sony cams produce cooler (more bluish) images than for example Canon. However, the color rendering on my other consumer Sony cam is like from another planet compared to the HC1. I probably should put up some additional pics...

I am fully aware that since TV broadcasting uses FM modulation there is a limit how great the modulation is allowed to be. Therefore both NTSC and PAL standards define distinct IRE (signal level) restrictions. There is a practical limit of the crominance signal since it is added as a carrier to the luminance signal. At high brighness (close to 100%) there is less room for a high amplitude color carrier. This is well understood. Eveyone agrees that HD has nothing to do with NTSC or PAL, as little as JPEG has to do with NTSC or PAL. And - as my experiments with STILL images shows, this problem with HC1 has nothing to do how video is encoded in NTSC or PAL - the problem is well before this signal processing !!!

Best regards,

Christian

I just finished going through a bunch of footage looking for reds. As I look at them, they aren't perfect, but they are nowhere near as bad as what you posted. They are all full auto. I have some frame captures but no way to post them. If anyone can post them I'll send them to you. They're downsized so they are not big files.

Your pix dramatically show why my impression of the CMOS Sony's were that they produced pastel color -- the red has no intensity! It is saturated (rightmost chips) correctly, but the brightness is wrong.

And you are correct about how CMOS works. At NAB, I'll take printout's of your site to some Sony folks I know in the pro division. Fundamentally, now that you have documented the problem the question is can it be fixed by Sony service.

I tried the similar thing as Christian did, and I got to agree HC1 does have a serious drawback for red color reproduction under certain situations. Bright red is definitely nonacceptable with HC1. Thanks the god that in reality we seldom has this situation.

SONY definitely realized this issue and maybe that is why HC3 uses differecnt CMOS. This also means most probably the cmos of HC1 is defective in the red reproduction... It is rather disappointing, and I hope SONY will have some software/firmware solution later, though chance are slim.

Now I feel something strange, it seems that all the complaints are from HC1 users, how about A1 users? Do they have the same problem? Will black stretch solve this problem to some extends? I wish A1 users can provide some comments.

I assume too the A1 has the same problem. And, it looks like there is no replacement. So how ARE A1 shooters handling it?

Well I had to go through many hours of footage to find a frame or two with a bright enough red to cause a problem and then it's not all that bad. Nothing like as bad as those charts a few posts back. I will just keep shooting and ignore the problem for the most part. Yeah I will look for it every time I see red and check out the reds on any new camera I buy, but I really don't see it being enough of an issue to really bother me. The image quality of this camera still amazes me every time I see it.

I have been keeping an eye on this post while going through hours of footage taken on 3 different cams (a HC1 which I traded in for a A1 and a loaner A1 when my zoom packed up) and I can't see anything that serious with the reds - maybe a bit cool sometimes on auto white balance but manual or daylight setting WB no problem.
In fact i get a big smile on my face everytime I project this stuff, the overall colour knocks my socks off!
IMO the A1 even can be better for colour including Red in good light than my Z1, so even if a batch of chips where down on the red maybe a lot may be down to our own eyes?

If you look at the posted charts, you can hardly call the reds accurate. I don't think folks would be having these problems if the A1/HC1 reds were more accurate than a Z1.

However, excluding the red problem, it is entirely possible that the A1/HC1 have better looking greens because the Z1 tends to bluish greens. So I'm not doubting your observation.

Steve, i agree with you with the charts and if my cam was showing reds down like that i would be all over Sony but i'm just not seeing it on my footage at the moment either by good luck or maybe years of the old amber beer have given my eyes built in red warm balance!
I nearly did'nt post as I hate 'mines ok -yours is not' type posts but for once it's all working ok here.
Regards

But maybe there really is some difference between these same products (HC1 vs. another HC1). I have A1 (PAL) and I don't think my A1's reds are best I've seen, but definitely reds are not as bad as in those charts. I have only found that sometimes (indoor light) faces can look two redish, but that's a different red problem. Anyway, reds are more red in my A1 than those charts.

HC1 versus TRV70 comparison
 

Here's another side-by-side comparison, this time of an HC1 and my Sony TRV70 single-chipper:

http://home.att.net/~ghickling/HC1-TRV70.jpg

The left-hand images are in a room lit only by 2 100W incandesents 10' from the colorcard, with my body shading the card from their direct light.

In the right-hand images, the card is lit by direct morning sun.

Both cameras were set to auto exposure and auto white balance. These images are slightly-cropped framegrabs from the DV footage and .mts transport stream, respectively.

Edit1: the lack of focus is of course me not the camera - I was hurrying...
Edit2: here's a link to the chart I used: http://www.wildnaturephotos.com/WNP/Html/Color.html

I saw the pictures of Christian de Godzinsky. I understand now why he doesn't like the reds... and other colors... His camera has a problem with the sensor or other thing... That's all !

My HC1E gives me really good and brights colors... Reds are really goods... When I film a red LED it is Red ! One of my friends has the same cam with the same results... We don't understand ! Is it specific to the Never Twice Same Color model ?

I think christian has a PAL-edition. I have a PAL-edition and mine looks pretty ok to me. So I think there are a couple of faulty ones out there.

It now appears (to me) that rather than a blue bias causing the “problem”, it is just that the reds have the wrong hue and lack saturation (thus blue appears to take over). For example, I opened Christian's "Sony HDR-HC1E Automatic White Balance" image in Photoshop and was able to produce a remarkably good image by adjusting Hue/Saturation for Red alone. I simply moved the red hue to +15 and the red saturation to +50. With a few additional tweaks, I believe that it would be indistinguishable from an “accurate” image. I could just as easily create presets in Color Finesse to apply to footage as I have done in the past when matching borrowed Sony cameras to my Canons.