Camera color test in a German Magazine :

Same Picture with XL-H1, JVC GY-HD100, Sony A1, Sony FX1, Sony Z1, Sony HC1.

http://www.videoaktiv.de/text.php?pos=|36|129|134&nav_id=134

Thanks for that Rodolpe.

I've seen those still test shots before.
- the reds in those shots look fine and HC1/A1 look very little different to FX1/Z1. Certainly not a dramatic difference.
EDIT: Actually, looking more closely at those shots again, the HC1 red (background on the right) DOES look more pinkish than the other cams. It appears to me to be 'worse' than A1. A1 doesn't seem as bad.

So again, i conclude that this is maybe an 'early' problem with some HC1's or maybe it is still happening and some people are unlucky and get a bad unit.

Oh to know a Sony engineer in Japan who's happy to talk...

well this topic is No. 1 hot topic here :)

I fully agree with folks who claim no red problem from their real shooting footage. Since I could not find the problem myself in my practical shooting. that is why I claimed that my HC1 has no red problem in another post. However everybody knows that reality tests sometimes are so differerent from the lab tests, and here it comes.

I repeated christian's test in a very simple way, I printed his chart in my color ink jet printer, and use my HC1 to test the chart myself. I did indoor test and the results seem to be as bad as his. Interesting enough, I use the same way to repeat Graham's test and find the results are much better and similar to the result that Graham had got. So what is the point here? Frankly speaking I do not know... I am wondering whether any one can use the same color board that chrisdon has used and report their results? especially for the people who has A1?

After seeing very positive results on Christian's images from a simple red hue/saturation adjustment, I am certain that there are practical methods for dealing with this reds issue. I am considering trying the following to see the effect, since it would be nice to capture colors accurately rather than fixing in post (though admittedly my images do not appear as "off" as some I have seen here):

1) Manual white balance

2) Attach a color compensating filter like a CC30R Red or CC40R Red (to absorb some blue and green thus increasing the relative red value)

3) Increase the HC1 camera color setting to "re-saturate" the colors (but now with a higher relative red value)

4) Adjust the red hue a bit (if necessary) when color correcting in post (I would be color correcting in post anyway).


Yes, it would be wonderful if a firmware fix appeared... but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting.


On a less practical note, if Lorin Thwaits' thoughts (from 2005) on the HDR-HC1’s dynamic range and exposure settings (http://geekswithblogs.net/lorint/arc.../23/64031.aspx
) have any validity, it would definitely seem that more light would be key in getting this camera to produce better colors, since a greater bit range would be used to represent red, green, and blue when the aperture is changed (he wasn't aware of the shutter speed/exposure exclusivity at the time, but still an interesting read). So, I guess...

5) Lots of light! (Especially since the CC filter would probably cut a stop or more. And I guess this would really be #1)

:-)

A very popular thread...
 

Hi all,

I am pleased to see that my small contribution has resulted in a very constructive and at least to me (and the originator) important discussion. I am likely pleased to know that I am not alone. But mostly pleased I am because there seems to be some of you out there (Rodolphe to mention one) that have well behaving HC1's. This IS reassuring, especially when I am going to send this cam for a checkup. I beg in my "evening prayers" that there IS a solution :)

Yes - my HC1 is a PAL version.

John, your procedure how to counterfeit this shortcoming sounds interesting and probably workable. I don't have in my posession the reguired filters. They are probably expensive and I am not willing to buy them just to experiment. I have spent already countless hours trying to figure out the problem.

However, this is nothing that you should be forced to do to get decent color reproduction of an expensive high end HDV prosumer camcorder, when you can get much better color reproduction with a 5 times cheaper consumer camcorder!!! Something is really wrong here!

And you are right - this is not something that you should be FORCED to do in the postprocessing. First of all - all material does not get post processed. Secondly, such an additional required color correction filtering would cause already the less than real-time rendering jump to ridiculous time rendering... Especially in the HD format.

I think that we can at least make that conclusion that there is a more than a sporadic (systematic?) problem with some HC1's color reproduction. Sony has been a synonyme for quality, not always necessary good customer service.

They MUST react in severe situations like this, otherwise customers will disappear for good. Bad news spreads quickly!! OK - its my blame when I blindly bought this cam without checking it first. I just read some test reports that prised this cam to be very high quality.... I think that no-one of you would have thought that a HD-cam can have such bad color rendering. High definition should also mean high quality - overall. What ís the use of the extra pixels if the colors are worse than in DV?

I am going to shoot some additional pics also using the old Sony consumer CDR-PC5E cam that I still have. It was a great cam when released. I would say that it has very warm colors to be a Sony cam - comparable to my Canon MVX2i.

If I have time I will shoot the same color card with various camera settings and lighting color temperatures. I have to do it now during the weekend, I will send the HC1 next week alone on a trip to France...

By the way - I finally found a way to compare these cams worldwide. Some of you have suggested to use Coke bottles for a standard red. I have bad news - there is a huge variation in "coke-red" in different countries.

My solution = color pencils of the make "STAEDTLER" (those hexagonal shaped cross section color wooden pencils) are sold at least all over Europe in book-stores. You can find them in all different and bright colors. I just borrowed my sons set and I am going to shoot them as well. This would provide a simple and cheap way to compare our HC1's. Please check next time you go to a book shop if they are available :)

Because the problem shows up also in stills I would suggest to capture still images, would be anyway easier - or? It would be nice to see also some A1 shots !!!

And here again is the link to the color card pics for possible new browser's convenience ;)

http://www.dextrel.net/photogallery/real.htm

Regards,

Christian

True, we shouldn't be forced to do anything. But I guess I look at it as a practical issue. As I said before, it is what it is. Outside of firmware or replacements, we can only figure out ways to work with it as it is.


This beats the Tickle-Me-Elmo and blood methods. :-)

Remember that with the Data Code function setting in the menu, you can see the camera settings information during playback. This will be useful when comparing different cameras. It will provide settings used for exposure, white balance, gain, shutter speed, and aperture.

I used my A1 to take still photos of several red objects, and there is a noticeable red inaccuracy. I will try to post comparison footages taken with the A1 (still mode) and a plain 2.8megapixel digital camera, which had much better red accuracy (but it had a flash).

http://www.xanga.com/GhostThoughts

Comparison of still images of reds.

Hi Alex,

Thanks for the images. However, it might be unfair to compare the two cameras whe the other is using flash. The flash color temperature is very much different from normal ambient lighting. I'll do a comparison during the weekend and likewise try to avoid using the flash.

Anyhow, looking at the optical mouse led tells already that there is something wrong with the reds in the HC cam.

Christian

We need to be careful to not get off-track here. Poor representation of reds is a different issue from poor overall color balance. It is well-known that Sony cameras tend towards a 'cool' color balance.

For example, the first two images on the GhostThoughts site clearly differ in overall color balance (compare the tones in the neutral-colored wall at the edge of the poster). When I downloaded those two images into Photoshop and applied 'autocolor' they became almost identical.... in other words, the necessary chroma info is there, but the overall balance is somewhat out of whack. These kinds of color balance issues can tackled either in-camera (e.g. a previous post suggested whitebalancing on a pale green or blue card) and/or in post.

The more concerning issue, that motivated this thread, was that some HC1s/A1s seem to have a selective problem with red representation that's NOT fixable through overall color balance adjustment. (Some of the later images at GhostThoughts do perhaps demonstrate that problem....).

ha, I guess now everyone is clear about the HC1/A1 red color problem. Bright red does have problems on certain situations. ghosthoughts's picture of mouse led is the typical bad situation for red ...

I do not think there is anything that customers can do for this issue, we can only hope SONY will do something....

Just one thing, how is HC3's performance with mouse led ? hope some HC3 users can provide the information.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to show - the red inaccuracies, not trying to compare the resolution, color balance, lighting, etc. I will, however, try to get another test where both cameras will not being using flash and I'll compare in identical lighting - enough lighting so that it won't stress the low light capabilities of either camera.

More test images soon...
 

Hi everyone,

I will today shoot some more images using three cams to compare the color reproduction of HC1. Please remember that these are NOT any laboratory experiments - just comparisons how three different cams behave under similar circumstances...

Within one day or two I will post the results on my web site :)

Christian

Here is a comparison between a Canon S80, a Sony HVR-A1J and a Sony HC1.

The Canon S80 is an 8m pixel still camera, I have downsized the picture to match the size of the A1J image.

The A1J is using Cinetone type 2 + black stretch, one-push WB on a sheet of paper.

The HC1 is using one-push WB to a sheet of paper (the same one). Note: the HC1 recently (last week) had its sensor replaced due to dust contanimation.

The S80 is using ISO400, slightly reduced exposure, auto white balance. No flash for either camera.

Sony A1J: http://www.villamil.org/photos/DSC00064.JPG

Sony HC1: http://www.villamil.org/photos/DSC06059.JPG

Canon: http://www.villamil.org/photos/IMG_0845.JPG

The results look OK to me, with color on the A1J a bit more saturated, probably due to the Cinetone. The Canon has done a better job of capturing the tone of the tuna.

thanks for that Gian.

to me both the A1J and the HC1 (new sensor..) look pretty good and fairly close to the Canon still shot. no it's not the same, (look at the red at the centre of the Japanese flag) but also it looks entirely acceptable.

LCD or Monitor
 

I will be getting my A1 in the coming days. But would like to know if the Red Accuracy shows up on the LCD.

Does the Red problem shows up on the camera's LCD? Or only obvious on Monitors ?

I would hope to search around and look for an A1P that is not "infected".

Thanks

When you're in bright light situations, the color on the LCD gets washed out and it's hard to make critical calls like judging the reds, but yes, I have seen the red problem on the LCD as well.

Interesting, I haven't seen it on the LCD/VF at all.

Hi,

I can see the reds problem on the HC1 LCD panel clearly.

I promised to publish more comparison resluts lately. I am sorry fo the delay but I have been travelling. I have, however, made a big effort shooting a video of such objects that should be available around the world. I have used 3 different cams under different lighting conditions - one is the HC1.

After a LOT of thinking I think I found an excellent object to shoot if we want to compare colors - LEGO BRICKS!!!

They are available all around the world, and if you have kids just walk to their rooms for a search. I found many different coloured bricks that make a good colour pallette. To my knowledge all bricks are manufactured at the same location, and are very durable both by themselves but also the colors are very stable.

I will post the promised video shortly. I let you know when.

Christian

Hc1 Poor Red Color Rendering Solved !!!
 

HI,

Check the following thread for the story!

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=55503

Great News !!!

Christian