Report on V1

[Nigel Cooper]

You have a point Alister.

I am using a JVC 19" CRT, also a Sony 28" regular TV CRT and a Samsung HD LCD 18".

In about 3 weeks I'll be able to check using a Sony 46" 1920x1080 LCD screen, which I'm buying.

To be honest Alister, I generally do comparisons on this sort of equipment as it is what the masses use. That will all change over the next few years of course once people start splashing out on expensive 20" LCD and Plasma High-Def television sets.

I can see enough differences using my existing monitors and even on my Apple 23" Cinema LCD display.

It will be interesting to see what other differences I can spot once I take delivery of this huge 46" Sony LCD affair.

I also have a really decent DLP projector with an 7' screen in my living room, not sure what that will throw up if I start plugging camcorders and decks into it. I know that my old DVCAM shot DVDs fall apart on a screen that big, they just look soft and out of focus. It will be great to view some HD footage on my home cinema set up.

Oh, totally loved your XDCAM HD lens (SD/HD) comparison; very interesting, I'd like to know what Canon came back to you with on that front.

[Alister Chapman]

I remember going to an event to show a umatic tape on a video projector for the first time.. Yuk it looked terrible.

I think the masses will be using bigger screens very soon in Europe. In the US a 40" screen or bigger is becomming common. You only have to look at what the high street stores are selling this year compared to last. A year a go I would have said that a 27" TV was the norm, I think now 32" is normal. Infact it's hard to get a flat panel less than 32". Anyway this is all going off topic. I havn't heard back from Canon yet. One final comment from a recent HD shoot was that on a 19" JVC all my interviews look perfect, sharp and in focus, but on a 32" LCD you could see that in some cases I had the interviewees ears in focus but not thier eyes, it looks really distracting. I have to confess that despite having been shooting HD since 2003 I am still finding new issues all the time, it's just not as clear cut as SD. Thanks for the review by the way. Have fun with the XDCAM.

Sorry folks for going off topic!

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman

Then look at the same feed on a 40" plasma and all the grain, mosquito noise, differnces in sharpness soft focus etc LEAP out at you. One of the key issues with HD is that most viewers are going to be using a big screen and big screens are very unforgiving.

Well said. We feed our 12' screen with a projector, and have an SXRD 50" from which we view most everything. Testing a 1080 camcorder on any monitor smaller than 46" is inaccurate and involves scaling. For accurate near pixel-for pixel display, you need to have approx 50" to 60" in the 1080 world. Even then, you might have some weirdness due to picture processing.
For 720, you need 46" for the closest view to original. CRT isn't gonna cut it overall, not for straight comparisons, IMO.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Ainslie Davies

How do you think it compares to the FX1/Z1? Noticeably better? A worthwhile replacement, especially if blowing it up to film?

I'm at a loss to understand how people start comparing right-way. First, the V1 is not a Z1 replacement. That's been made clear from day 1. It's also not an A1 replacement -- it's much heavier. There will be a relacement for the Z1 -- the Z2.

The JVC is a totally different animal in everyway. I never once thought about comparing it. If you want a shoulder carried camera with interchangeable lens you are going to have to go with XDCAM HD or the JVC.

I haven't looked at the 24p and 30p video yet because if I have a 60i camera that's what I want shoot. Likewise, once I'm able to look at a 60p with a JVC I'm sure not interested in seeing how the JVC looks at 30p. I've seen enough low-temporal rate video to last a lifetime!

And when I said Discovery -- that was a clue to the fact that the HD was 60i shot with HDCAM cameras. None of it is 24p. There are rules about how much film can even be included because it looks so bad. The HD networks that will buy what you shoot -- other than ESPN stringers -- all want 60i.

And with digital projection coming so fast along with HD DVDs -- I think the question of going to film will go away fast for anyone looking at under $5000 camcorders.

It's great Sony included 24p because for those who want a Sony -- they can now get 24p. You'll have to wait for a review of someone who likes 24p to see if it meets their needs. (And, when the 24p edting tools arrive.)

However, I did shoot both 24p and 30p so I'll watch them tonight.

Yes, the monitor makes a huge difference. Last year, 50% of the HDTVs tested could not display more than 540-lines! One of mine "bobs" and looked terrible on rez. tests. I chose my Sony 50-inch (seen from about 7 feet) A10 because it deinterlaces all 1080-lines. Both monitors have HDMI inputs and I suspect that certainly helps.

Lastly, unless you are watching HD so it fills most of your field of vision (about 30%) you really aren't watching HD -- simply higher rez. TV.

My real point is that ClearVid CMOS really works!

[Ray Bell]

thanks Steve,Spot and Nigel....

All of these reports are just adding different views/perspectives and that is what we need to see.

Not having a HD camera of my own but looking forward to going to HD from my PD170, I just didn't want to purchase a V1, the PD170 replacement, and have it end up being nothing more than just a wide screen version of the PD170.

So to many of us the V1 seems like a very very nice HD camera that I plan on purchasing based upon these user reports...

Thanks for taking the time out and telling us how the camera is performing in your experience as HD material producers.....

Please keep it up guys... :-)

Also, as to Lux testing... I chose the PD170 due to its low lux performance because I mainly shoot underwater without lamps... the PD170 actually see's much better in low light situations than most of our human eyes... so much infact that I have had on several shoots where some complained that the video looked much better than what the divers actually saw while diving with me.

I know the V1 wont match the PD170 in lux ratings, but I'd at least like to see the V1 show the dark portions of the video as true black versus a dark noisy image... at least I hope that the V1 would show this situation more natural and not boosted into showing noise..

[Dave Ferdinand]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

I'm at a loss to understand how people start comparing right-way. First, the V1 is not a Z1 replacement. That's been made clear from day 1. It's also not an A1 replacement -- it's much heavier. There will be a relacement for the Z1 -- the Z2.

I think it makes perfect sense since these are the 2nd generation Sony HD cams. Who cares if Sony has labeled them as the replacement of Joe & Shmoe?

Besides they're CMOS and people want to know how they fare with CCDs.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Dave Ferdinand

I think it makes perfect sense since these are the 2nd generation Sony HD cams. Who cares if Sony has labeled them as the replacement of Joe & Shmoe?

Besides they're CMOS and people want to know how they fare with CCDs.

The point is Sony DID NOT NAME THEM AS REPLACEMENTS!

You can only compare 2nd generations in the same price category. The Z2 isn't here. If you are a Z2 category buyer, you are going to wait for the Z2 no matter how good the V1 because you are right to expect the Z2 will be even better.

A real comparison of CMOS vs CCD can only be done with cameras in the same price category and with both cameras in your hands.

Having said this, the latitude and color fidelity are amazing. I think CCDs are now legacy technology.

For those interested in 24p -- today I used CINETONE and CINE GAMMA1 at 24p to shoot ordinary events like people walking and smoking. Hopefully, Liquid will auto-sense cadence and remove the pulldown. But, it will be interesting to see how the "filmlook" looks.

The B&W setting looks very interesting and so does 6 sec slo-mo. I had golfers asking for my business card. They think "HD" slo-mo is just what they need!

50 golfers x $100 -- just might work!

[Kris Galuska]

Steve,

I'd be very interested in how Liquid handles the footage. Although I have more experience with FCP, I recently bought Liquid to use on a small documentary, and I have been very impressed.

If it can detect the pull down, I won’t have to upgrade software.

Also, if there is any chance you could post some of your “ordinary” people footage, I’d greatly appreciate it. I think the V1 would work great for an independent film I’m planning. Unlike most people, I plan on using deep depth of field to fit the style of the film. This camera looks like it might be the right tool.

Keep up the good work.

-Kris

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Kris Galuska

If it can detect the pull down, I won’t have to upgrade software.

I'll check this next week. I think it will. And, I'm happy you too find Liquid a great NLE.

The only way I distribute HD video is via something that will let it be played on a large HQ HDTV. That means red-laser using VC1 or Blu-ray using MPEG-2.

[Floris van Eck]

Steve, how does the footage look you shot with the V1?

[David Heath]

One further question for Nigel Cooper is whether he has any comment after his experiences as regards the cameras highlight handling capabilities, it's dynamic range? Theory would predict it's CMOS sensor should well outperform CCD based cameras in this respect, and I'm starting to read reports that in this respect it doesn't disappoint.

[Nigel Cooper]

David, yes I found the V1 did handle highlighted areas a little better than the Z1 does. I shot a few clips on the V1 that were about a stop overexposed (accidently), but the parts that would have looked a little burned out on the Z1 looked sort of okay on the V1; not massively so, but noticable.

Somebody I know also said the V1 looked like it handled highlights better than his XDCAM camcorder, he emailed me two still examples and I was a little shocked at the results, so much so that I had to ask him if he was pulling my leg and had switched the images.

[Eric Gorski]

yes. any footage you could post would be great steve!

[Damon Lim]

the viewfinder on the V1 is color or black & white?

[Stu Holmes]

Originally Posted by Damon Lim

the viewfinder on the V1 is color or black & white?

I believe it's color but switchable to black&white.
- High-res too at 250,000pixels. LCD screen is 213,000pixels (ish).