Capturing via V1 HDMI with Blackmagic Intensity card
 

I am looking for a solution to capture footage from V1. Having read about HDV editing "processor hungry" character, I consider capturing my footage into DVCproHD and edit in that codec, using hardware support.
I am aware that once HDV chip has been used, the quality of the clip wont be better than HDV, even if captured via HDMI.
However regarding time (and cost!) saving, a HDMI capture card looks a good solution, vs capturing via firewire, edit in HDV and wait hours.

I am also aware that AJA Kona and Blackmagic Decklink cards do this trick. But they are pretty pricey compared to Intensity card.
My question is: can Intensity do the above described capture same fast as the other cards? Is there anything else to consider?

I use FCP 5.1.2 on a G5 dual 2 Ghz

Thanks

Yes the Intensity will work great. However the dual 2 ghz G5 won't be able to capture your footage uncompressed. Capturing uncompressed footage will require a Mac Pro dual Xeon system with at least a 2, but preferably 4 drive raid system.

You can also purchase a Convergent HD Connect MI HDMI -> HD SDI adaptor and an HD SDI card and capture with the quicktime codec compressed somewhat to reduce the HD requirements. This will work fine with the your G5, but it is a much more expensive solution.

Thanks Dave, actually I plan to add an external RAID via e-SATA PCI card. Would that work with the Intensity card?

Regarding Convergent Design's MI card, the folks at Convergent Design say it is not yet out, expected delivery in January...

I have an Intensity card on the way but I am pretty sure its compatible only with the new Mac Pro Intel machines.

I'm not a Mac or FCP user so maybe my comments are way out of line here but it sure seems to me that capturing native HDV and editing that is way cheaper and faster than going to all the expense needed to capture DVCProHD. Sure DVCProHD being less compressed will strain a CPU less, just as I've seen with the Sony YUV codec compared to the DV25 codec. However sure the CPU doesn't work as hard but you need a fast RAID else you've replaced one bottleneck with a different one.
You need to consider that your current setup can capture HDV if it can capture DV. Capturing DVCProHD does mean much faster data rates (100Mb V 25Mb) so your disks need more speed and way more storage capacity.
I'd also imagine doing a capture using Intensity means you've lost any chance of getting source TC, that may or may not amount to much to you.

The Intensity card is a PCI-e card and will not work in your PCI-X Mac.

I own a Mac Pro and a Decklink HD card. In my experience, HDV quality is actually *sharper* than DVCPRO HD. Sure, I'd not recommend HDV which is a 25MB/sec codec over a 100MB/sec codec. But, if you're capturing via a board, the point is to bypass HDV or other lowly codecs. It's that I noticed a lot of aliasing and a "digital-look" to the footage with DVCPRO HD. I don't like it - I bet a 100MB/sec 4:2:2 HDV spec would be much better than the current 100Mb/sec DVCPRO HD.

I'd recommend, yes, doing RAID and capturing in an alternative to both HDV and DVCPRO HD.

Say, uncompressed 8bit 4:2:2. Be aware: the Intensity does not support 10 bit.

codec
 

Interesting!

Barring a raid, and capturing this way,

Robert, would you say capturing in plain HDV - normally in the camera to
tape - but editing with one of the intermediate codec solutions, would give a FINAL better look than dvcprohd? {sharper and better colors, less artifacts }

What about if alpha, and/or color correction are needed?


Is it mainly the codec, or is it also the Sony hvr-v1 has 1980 x 1080 resolution, vs the HVX 200 having only 1440x 1080 resolution tops? { correct me if I'm wrong please, anyone. }

I was very interested in the hvx200. But, I did read one or two posts where the mood in the dvcpro camp seems to be down, after these new a1 and v1 cameras are out.

thanks

Thanks David, I am aware, planning to buy a Mac Pro once it comes out with a Blu Ray writer.
In the meantime I try to gather as much info as I can - to make the reight decision between AJA or Decklink and Intensity

Final Cut Pro can handle native HDV editing, from version 5 and up. Other than Vegas, I don't know of any NLE that can remove the pulldown, but if Apple keeps up their tradition of releasing new versions of Final Cut at NAB every other year, there may be a Version 6 in April. I'm speculating pretty heavily here, but if there is a version 6, maybe it'll include 24f support and remove the pulldown from v1 footage.

No real need, by the way, to go uncompressed HD editing with HDV. DVCpro HD is even MORE processor-intensive. I could edit well enough on a 1.6 ghz G5 single processor and even faster on a dual dual-core G5.

heath

????

DVCproHD moreso than HDV? You are talking if you have to transcode from something other than DVCproHD first right?

You are not talking native versus native..correct?

Unless I misread what was written earlier, capturing HDV then changing it to DVCPro HD, or any form of HD that has less compression, will be more processor-intensive. Fortunately, Apple cuts native HDV and DVCPro HD, nice and clean.

I sometimes will master my HDV footage in HDCAM, and to do that, I create a new timeline and change the Compressor settings to Photojpeg at either 100% quality (10 bit uncompressed) or 75% (8 bit uncompressed). 75% is slightly more compression and easier to deal with. But even on my G5 Quad, hitting play on the Photojpeg timeline can really slow things down.

heath

There is a great need to edit uncompressed or at least lightly compressed footage rather than settling for HDV or DVCPROHD. HDMI output recorded directly from the camera head live, rather than being compressed into HDV MPEG Long GOPs is a good deal better if quality of the output and/or a filmout is your goal.

The key is recording live, not playing the HDV output through the HDMI port which would defeat the purpose of using HDMI in the first place.

This is similar to the way high-end camera systems work.

If you have the computer resources, your uncompressed footage will be superior to HDCAM output which is still compressed. And of course the output is full 1920 x 1080 4:2:2 10/8 bit colorspace.

The problem is that this method is resource intensive. The Mac Pro with at least 2 raid drives would be the minimum configuration necessary to do this. Older non-Intel Macs simply couldn't do it. Neither can PCs unless a similar configuration is used.

However, the benefits of uncompressed editing are that the output rivals much more expensive systems with no artifacts.

There are, however a few problems. According to DSE, the V1U outputs 10 bit color but the 2 least significant bits are set to null, so it is really 8 bit color. Also, unless you use software that can remove the 2:3 pulldown, during injest, your footage will be destined for 24p over 60i for broadcast, DVD or HD DVD/Blu-ray.

If you use an HDMI -> HD SDI converter such as the Convergent HD Connect MI, you can injest full 1920 x 1080 4:2:2 10 bit footage with the Aja Kona card, or Xena on the PC, and can remove the 2-3 pulldown to obtain lightly compressed 24p output using Aja software. This saves space and requires less system resources but costs more money. This configuration will also work well with the G5.

When talking about HDMI output, some are interested in high quality on the cheap so-to-speak. Others are interested in uncompromised output, but money isn't that much of an issue. So money is often the main consideration.

Upgrading from a G5 to a Mac Pro is a pricey proposition. Adding HD SDI to a G5 yields high quality output and is much less than the cost of upgrading to a Mac Pro.

So Aja HD SDI on the G5 dual with a Convergent HD Connect MI converting the output from the V1U from HDMI -> HD SDI may be the ticket for many.

This method is substantially superior to either HDV or DVCPROHD.

Just my humble opinion.

Dave,

I gave a solution to converting HDV to uncompressed HD in Final Cut Pro; it looks good! The other solution may not be HDMI, but component and an uncompressed HD card, like DeckLink.

heath

Keep it clear:

You can shoot uncompressed only if you are connected with the cam to a computer with fast RAID system and a component or HDMI card. So this is studio only.

If you shoot HDV on tape the compression is there. If you go out from camera tape --> component or HDMI, the compression is there already.

To prevent more degradition in editing you can do a rough cut in HDV.
Switch the compressor setting in the FCP sequence to AIC or Uncompressed. Let FCP render the sequence, it's a fast operation, and then apply color correction and other effects.

You can choose for another intermediate to edit in, like Sheer or others.

That's correct. For pristine uncompressed footage you must capture live.

I just got my Intensity card. And am doing some preliminary test captures but I am having trouble capturing it to my HDs as they are not RAIDed. I am dropped way too many frames to make it even remotely usable.

This is from footage already captured as HDV that I am trying to capture as DVCproHD or as Uncompressed. Both are giving me trouble.

My question is, to no one in particular, as someone who will primarily be importing footage shot to tape as compressed HDV, what workflow would you recommend if you had my set-up?

(Mac Pro with 1.2 Terabytes internal space and BM Intensity Card)

Should I be converting it to DVCproHD? Uncompressed?

My output is always to DVD.

You lost me at this step. I usually edit Native HDV, apply Color correction etc. and then render out a final .MOV in AIC. Is this basically what you are saying? Or do you take your HDV sequence and nest it in an AIC sequence and render it that way, if so I don't see the benefit. As I understand it, FCP is never more than 1 generation away from your original HDV when it does the render. Regardless of how many effects you pile on.

Cant you make your disks RAID-ed? RAID would give the necessary transfer speed.

Doing that right now Zsolt. Will report my findings.

@ PAUL
"You lost me at this step. I usually edit Native HDV, apply Color correction etc. and then render out a final .MOV in AIC. ""

You can do it like you did before, the step I introduced was to prevent recompressing the HDV and to have the best signal for CC. Basically it is an alternative answer for this thread 'Capturing via HDMI with BM card'.

First off, from what I understand, a raid system is mandatory if you plan to capture uncompressed footage with the Intensity card, whether you use a Mac Pro or a PC. The only exception I am aware of would be if you used a PC and injested the footage with Cineform's Prospect HD, but this package is only available for PCs running Adobe Premiere Pro and the Convergent card is not available yet. For PC users, Cineform has stated publicly that they intend to support the Intensity card soon also.

If quality of live recordings is your goal, never convert to DVCPROHD since you would be defeating the purpose of shooting full resolution uncompressed. DVCPROHD 100s highest resolution is 1280 x 1080. This would be a huge step down from 1920 x 1080 uncompressed. You would also introduce compression artifacts.

Try to use JPEG2000 75. This is lightly compressed but substantially better than DVCPROHD.

On the other hand, if you are not recording live but are playing HDV out of your HDMI port, DVCPROHD would probably be ok (Jpeg2000 would still be better) since your content was degraded as soon as you recorded to HDV.

We are an HD SDI house. We already use PCs with HD SDI and the Canon XL-H1 among others. We are waiting for the Convergent HDMI -> HD SDI converter to feed output from the V1U directly into the AJA HD SDI card.

I can't speak directly to the Mac Pro other than to tell you that we have one here and plan to test it with the Intensity card to compare results. We also need to get a repeater system for HDMI since we can't use the camera tethered less than two meters from the computer since we record live.

We plan to compare XL-H1 and V1U footage injested with HD SDI. We also plan to compare V1U HDMI -> HD SDI footage with V1U HDMI footage injested directly the BM Intensity card.

If the results are positive and the V1U's lens is good enough (comparable or less red and green fringing problems (CA) than we experience with the XL-H1, and from what I have seen, I believe this to be the case), we plan to replace the XL-H1 with a number of HDMI and/or HD SDI enabled V1Us for our next film project.

Intensity limitations
 

I noticed that the Intesity card only supports capturing in the 1080i flavor. But the HDMI specs allow for 1080/24p.

Does the V1U support HDMI output at 1080/24p when shooting in the progressive modes?

What is the best work around to capture and edit 24p with the Intensity card?

>> Does the V1U support HDMI output at 1080/24p when shooting in the progressive modes? <<

No, Sony's V1U does not support 1080p24 or 1080p30 from the HDMI port. The V1U outputs 1080i60 ONLY from the HDMI port. If you shoot progressive footage, the V1U will output it as either 24p or 30p over 60i. The 24 or 30 progressive frames would have to be extracted with software. Currently BM's software does not support extracting 24p or 30p from the HDMI 60i stream.

>> What is the best work around to capture and edit 24p with the Intensity card? <<

Currently there is no solution that I am aware of. However, Cineform has stated publicly (on this board as a matter of fact) that they plan to support the Intensity card and will offer 24p extraction from 60i, but this is with Aspect HD and Connect HD which are available for the PC only, not the Mac.

Can anyone confirm this statement? According to the BM site it states Intensity does 10 bit...

Derek

That is correct. The Intensity Card accepts 10 bit input. However, I was curious about this too, so I asked Douglas Spotted Eagle to confirm whether the V1U outputs 10 bit or 8 bit. DSE claims that the V1U outputs 10 bit color depth but sets the two least significant bits to null meaning that the V1U outputs 8 bit color depth.

8-bit over 10-bit is just like the Canon XL-H1 puts over HDSDI, even so the uncompressed capture (to CineForm or uncompressed) is well worth it for the increased color resolution and losing all the MPEG artifacts.

Yes, to the early question regarding automatic 24p extraction from 60i within the CineForm products. We had to do the same thing for the Canon HDSDI cameras, it works great.

Sorry for the confusion - the HDMI spec of the Intensity board threw me off (it isn't v1.3 spec) - so, if it says it's 10bit, then that's really something!

Yes - as other users have said - RAID setup, Mac Pro.

Don’t capture in HDV - you're getting no advantage over capturing to HDV tape, and it's in a lowly 4:2:0 colour space, and compressed to 1440x1080. HDV is HDV regardless of if you got it from the HDMI connector or the tape itself.

The point of having an HDMI board it to bypass this codec.

DVCPRO also isn't a good choice IMO because it's still highly compressed - at the 1920x1080 60i single is squished to 1280x1080, which is worse than HDV's 1440x1080. While it is 4:2:2, it's a mere 100MB/sec ;)

Blackmagic offers many flavours of it's codec: 8bit, 10bit, RGB, various frame rates, etc. The hard disk test will let you know what you can handle. I recommend it over DVCPRO HD and HDV.

It depends how important the project is to you, how much storage you have, and how much post you intend to do. Best idea IMO is capture in a high end codec to a RAID setup (end up with massive files). If you have multiple day shoots, and after the day is done, do a rough edit and encode to a different, smaller, codec. For short films with lots of post in mind, I like the options of the OpenEXR codec (it’s compressed, but offers an incredible latitude in terms of bit depth).

It can be quite tempting to prescribe such mighty codecs creating massive files but for what purpose? You'll just end up making life difficult for yourself by over engineering the solution and no better quality output for the extra cost and effort. You'll have to spend 3-4 times the cost of the V1 to get a RAID of sufficient speed and reliability.

If you can capture to Cineform from the Intensity then that would be a very high quality and pragmatic solution. For a project based around a V1 you don't need more than a this.

Mr Newman, as soon as you have a Mac version I'm in!

TT

Dave,

I have the latest Kona LH drivers and could you explain how to capture XL-H1 24F HD-SDI output (24p embedded in 1080 60i) with pulldown removed upon capture?

We use the Aja Xena LH card on a PC to injest footage from the XL-H1. Cineform's Prospect HD for Adobe Premiere 2 extracts 24p from the 60i stream with no problems if you have a pc. We can also use Aja's software plugins for Adobe Premiere 2 to extract 24p from 60i but this is an Adobe Premiere function.

I'm not quite sure how this would be done on the Mac unless FCP offers an HD SDI injest function which can extract 24p from the 60i stream.

We haven't got up to speed with the Mac Pro yet. We should be in the next few months.

Cineform is the savior for PC users. I'm not sure yet what alternatives the Mac has. Before we buy an HD SDI card for the Mac we are trying to learn more about Black Magic's cards and software.

Of course if you have a Mac Pro, you can boot Windows XP and run the same software we do.

Sorry I couldn't be more help. We are still learning on the Mac.

Cineform may work - I haven't bought into it because I've never found my current setup to be limiting. 4 SATA drives are cheap and fast and so far, reliable, and I keep mine ready for capture. RAID for the masses has arrived. In terms of investing in more codecs, I prefer to spend only where I need to. Blackmagic 8bit uncompressed is fine for when I shoot indie film scenes (especially under lit) - colour correcting HDV in post and trying to keep the grain down doesn't work well. Yes, I did say that I compress into a codec of my choosing after the shoot for that day is done. So, my setup works for me. You think that Cineform is a better solution for everyone, that's great.

Again, I don't recommend DVCPRO HD.

OpenEXR is best saved for post work after the final cut. Used in After Effects, Combustion and Photoshop - and it's compressed I might add, and a great standard, and each frame is it's own file! Very useful, plenty of reason to use it when I composite.

Andybody going to post footage/grabs from the Intensity card? Anything at all would be appreciated!!

-pasty

Pasty..its been a little flaky to say the least. I have to reboot to get it to recognize my camera.

I have some stuff imported..both uncompressed stuff that i captured directly with my cam connected to my puter. Also, stuff that I shot in 24p that I captured as DVCproHD..which is what I am going to be using it for.

The problem is, even with 4 gigs of space and virtually unlimited bandwith in my .mac account...the files are too large to post. Even a few seconds of uncompressed footage is 500 megs!

Hey Daniel,
boy have you ever been on top of things with all this V1U stuff! How is the quality of the included codec (or is that a Windows only codec?)? Anyway, even some frame grabs from the uncompressed footage would be awesome. Thanks man!

-pasty

Daniel, you can freely post your clips on rapidshare.de or filefactory.com.

Or ask Chris, I think he's already hosted some uncompressed files (not sure of this)

Kristin

Daniel, I've got 200 gigs of server space sitting around doing nothing right now. If you (or anyone for that matter) wants to share some uncompressed Intensity footage for everyones viewing pleasure just shoot me an email. cheers.

Daniel,

Derek says he has space - we would all love to see what you've seen! The intensity is being sold, but I've never seen any results yet. Has anyone else, from a site other than this one?

Sorry guys..been busy trying to cut down on the 37 weddings in my editing queue.

The card has been flaky for capture. And when i have been able to capture, the quality hasn't been all that great. i am limited to only my office to capture and the footage is boring and not worth the hassle.

Recording 24P using BM Intensity and included MJPEG codec
 

As far as I know, Intensity does not record 24P. However any 24P signal in output from the camera as 1080i. So does BM record without pulldown to MJPEG and then allow us to do pulldown in post ? Thanks!