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December 1st, 2004, 11:01 PM | #1 |
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a little confused on CF24, can someone help?
i shot some footage on my HDR-FX1 using the preset for CF24. why would anyone want this footage? to me it looks rather choppy nothing like film.
can someone shed some light for me? what am i missing here? |
December 1st, 2004, 11:13 PM | #2 |
Obstreperous Rex
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Like any other frame rate, CF24 is an aesthetic -- a stylistic choice. Some folks will like the way it looks and some won't.
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December 1st, 2004, 11:31 PM | #3 |
Barry Wan Kenobi
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I think the only thing you're missing is Sony's marketing leads people to think that CineFrame 24 would be a film simulation. It clearly isn't a very good one.
As Chris said, the CF24 can be thought of as a digital effect. If you like it, use it, if you don't, don't. But it's not really filmlike at all, that is true. |
December 1st, 2004, 11:43 PM | #4 |
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well i also have a GL2 and when i shoot in frame mode @ 30fps its rather nice. i like it, but this CF24 is really not even close. i was hoping for a non interlaced look with that CF24 but oh well.
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December 2nd, 2004, 05:26 PM | #5 |
Barry Wan Kenobi
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I'm totally in agreement, CF24 might work for a talking-head interview shot, but nothing else -- the motion rendition is very erratic.
CF30 should give you a similar effect to frame mode on the GL2 though. |
December 2nd, 2004, 10:40 PM | #6 |
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My student wants to use the CF24 for his film on Sunday. I'm thinking he should nix the idea and just use some software to go to 24p.
Thoughts? heath
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December 3rd, 2004, 09:15 AM | #7 |
Barry Wan Kenobi
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I've seen enough CF24 to say that nobody should ever use it who's trying to get a filmlike feel. It just doesn't work.
For software 24P conversion, what software are you thinking of -- is there one out yet? DVFilm's working on theirs but it's not out yet. I guess the full version of MB should be able to do it. Thing is, if you don't have existing software you may not be able to do it. CF30 looks pretty good, and it gives a sort-of-filmlike feel, so CF30 may be an option to consider. |
December 3rd, 2004, 10:29 AM | #8 |
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Thanks, Barry!
heath
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December 4th, 2004, 09:28 AM | #9 |
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I did some FX1 60i to 24p conversions using Film Effects, www.nattress.com and the results looked very good - very 16mm film like. The results looked a lot better than the inbuilt 24p look, which to my mind is wrong because it doesn't put the right amount of motion blur into the simulation, which makes everything it shoots look like a battle scene from Gladiator.
Graeme
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December 4th, 2004, 03:14 PM | #10 |
Barry Wan Kenobi
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Yeah, I finally got the chance to view CineFrame 24 on a large-screen HD 1080i monitor.
It's useless. CineFrame 24 is not, in any way, a film-look effect. It's a bodge of fields that produces a stutter effect, if that's what you want, but it looks completely un-filmlike. We shot 24P on the XL2 and the DVX side-by-side with CineFrame 24 on the FX1, and the difference is jarring (as was the weird strobing double-imaging mess that is CineFrame 24). I've heard good reports from both Graeme and Marcus about their 60i->24 conversion software, so that warrants further investigation. But if you want to make video with a film look in-camera, forget about CineFrame 24, it's not what you want and I think it was a mistake for Sony to include it in the camera -- they probably did it for marketing purposes, to "claim" it shoots at 24fps, but it most certainly does not. |
December 4th, 2004, 03:34 PM | #11 |
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Thanks for confirming what I saw. It looked like judder-city to me. I'm pretty good at looking at a Film Look now and telling how it was done, and spotting when it's wrong. CF24 is wrong. It's very, very un-film-like. Now, how can I get Sony to buy my algorithm?? Or is it a case of "not invented here" with Sony.
Most likely it's just a quick thing they added in for the marketing dept. Graeme
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December 7th, 2004, 01:44 PM | #12 |
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<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : Yeah, I finally got the chance to view CineFrame 24 on a large-screen HD 1080i monitor.
It's useless. -->>> There are a lot of people saying this, yet I've noticed most everyone complaining about CF24 has not done the 2:3 pulldown in post to convert to 24p. CF24 is not intended to be viewed without conversion to 24fps, so I'm a little puzzled as to why people are complaining so loudly about it as they stream it out of the camera to an HDTV monitor... Of course it's going to stutter and look like crap. :? Now, that said, I've borrowed an FX1 and have been playing with it a bunch the past few days. I'm actually getting some decent results with CF24, however, I'm getting better results with 60i to 24p conversion. The CF24 seems to over-soften the image and the blur length doesn't look right. Doing a 60i to 24p conversion still isn't as filmic as true 24p, but I can get a lot more control and detail out of the footage this way. As I have said before in other posts, I'm going to hold off buying at least until the Z1 arrives. I'll probably wait for NAB and see if Panasonic announces anything before committing... But I think that I will be buying either a Z1 or a PAL FX1 so I can shoot in 50i. The 50i video is still the same resolution and still encoded into the same 25Mbps data rate. But with 17% fewer frames/second, the actual compression level should be noticeably lower. I'd love to get my hands on some 50i footage to play with or a 50i capable camera to test my theories. BTW: Love your DVX book, Barry.
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December 7th, 2004, 03:04 PM | #13 |
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Glad you liked the book, Jeff!
As far as CF24 and extracting 24P -- I know what you're saying, and I've heard that argument before, but frankly that argument just doesn't work. I know people are saying it, but I just can't agree. CF24 is an in-camera simulation of 24P that's then written to tape with 3:2 pulldown, to approximate the look of 24fps film after it's been telecine'd to tape. Both the XL2 and the DVX shoot actual 24P, then implement 2:3 pulldown and write the footage to tape simulating how film would look after having been telecine'd. Watched side-by-side, the DVX and the XL2 look like film. The FX1 CF24 looks "wrong". It isn't in any way filmlike. Furthermore, it gets much worse: CF24 introduces a pulsing, waving quality to the video -- shoot a resolution chart and you'll see that not only doesn't CF24 render motion properly, it can't even render a still frame properly. No matter what you do or how you use it, CF24 is not at all filmlike. It's a weird stuttery digital effect, and if you want to use it for some "gladiator"-like weird look, then that's probably okay, but as a "film simulation" it simply doesn't work. Viewing it at raw 24P wouldn't improve things any, because it's the creation of the 24 frames where the errors occur. As far as you getting more success with 60i->24P, that's exactly what I'd expect. Trying to convert 60i to 24p real-time, in the camera, is asking way too much, apparently. But Graeme's or Marcus' programs can take all the time they need to do the best job possible. And as far as Z1/CF25/50i, that's where the hope for the in-camera film simulation crowd lies. CF30 looks a lot better than CF24 does, so CF25 should look very nice indeed, and the slowdown to 24P isn't much of a big deal at all. Until JVC, Panasonic or Canon introduce a high-def 24P camera, CF25->24P is the high-def way to go. |
December 7th, 2004, 03:25 PM | #14 | |
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got this from mullens site http://home.earthlink.net/~dvcnyc/Sony%20HDR-FX1.htm
try this out and let us know if it fixes the "Strobing", I highlighted the most pertinant in BOLD below: Quote:
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December 7th, 2004, 06:23 PM | #15 |
Barry Wan Kenobi
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1/60th is the slowest shutter speed the FX1 allows when shooting in CF24. Any faster would certainly make the problem worse.
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