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-   Sony HVR-Z7 / HVR-S270 (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-hvr-z7-hvr-s270/)
-   -   2 new Sony HDV cams with interchangeable lens (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-hvr-z7-hvr-s270/103098-2-new-sony-hdv-cams-interchangeable-lens.html)

Chris Hurd November 21st, 2007 12:51 PM
Quote:
Isn't that proposed recorder supposed to be priced in the $3000 - $5000 range? If your main concern is price then I don't see how adding a $3000 box to your camera would help you there.
The proposed CineForm HDMI recorder has been announced in the sub-$2000 range:

http://www.cineform.com/products/CineFormRecorder.htm

The Convergent Design SDI recorder is currently slated for $5000 or maybe less:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=106861

But your point is made; either solution is considerable more expensive than simply using SXS cards, plus neither recorder is available yet.

Hedley Wright November 21st, 2007 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Standing (Post 779336)
I really want to love the EX1, but the media cost (reusable or not) and the cost and time involved in creating permanent archives of XDCAM-EX footage really gives me pause. Since I do this as a sideline, not as my major income generator, I have to be really careful about cameras that will have a lot of ongoing cost associated with them. When you add the cost of a XDCAM disk drive or a LTO tape backup system, the $30 archival tape or disk media (vs. $3 for HDV/DV tape) plus the $900 or so for enough SxS cards to shoot for 4-hours without interruption, the whole thing starts to creep out of my price range. I"m also concerned about the ergonomics of the EX1, as it looks a bit large and unwieldy for a handicam format.

I like the cheap media, instant archiving, modular design and compact size of the Z7. Do I wish it had 1/2" chips and a stronger codec? You bet. But pending some field reports on image quality, reliability, etc., I'm hoping it will be a better fit for me. I'm also intrigued by the idea of experimenting with some alternative optics, especially for a wildlife video I've been thinking about for a while.

Hopefully, if Cineform makes good on their promise of delivering an HDMI/compact flash recorder, I could add that on in a year or two and solve the codec issue.
My thoughts exactly Brian - even down to the occasional wildlife video!

Mark Williams November 21st, 2007 01:38 PM
Will the Z7 have hdmi out. I think Cineform's first flash recorder was supposed to be just for hdmi only, with a more expensive HD-SDI out later and more $$$.

Barry Richard November 21st, 2007 01:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Williams (Post 779521)
Will the Z7 have hdmi out ...?
yes -- I believe Juan said that it did

Mark Williams November 21st, 2007 01:59 PM
That would be great if the Cineform recorder comes in at a decent price. The Z7 and flash recorder would be the poor man's killer HD rig.

Brian Standing November 21st, 2007 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hurd (Post 779481)
But your point is made; either solution is considerable more expensive than simply using SXS cards, plus neither recorder is available yet.
Well last I checked, the PMW-EX1 wasn't shipping, so, technically, NONE of these options are available yet.

PMW-EX1 = $6700
+ $3600 for 4 16gb SxS cards (4-hour recording time)
+ $2800 PDWU1 XDCAM deck for archiving (+ $30/hour for XDCAM disks for archival)
= $13,200


HVR-S7 = $5300 (just a guess at street price)
+ $960 for 8 8gb CF drives (if I want 4-hours of CF recording)
+ $12 for 4 HDV tapes (4-hour record time)
= $6272
No archiving necessary.
Let's assume in a year or two I want to upgrade the codec and the Cineform device is available, we could add $2000.
= $8272.

So, for $4920 LESS, the Z7 gives me an interchangeable lens, more compact form factor and instant archiving. The major tradeoff is 1/3" chips vs. 1/2". Sounds like a compromise I'd be willing to make.

Given the media and archival cost for the XDCAM-EX, I think it makes the PDW-335 at $15000 look like an even better deal than the PMW-EX1.

Chris Hurd November 21st, 2007 02:59 PM
Actually the EX1 is indeed shipping at this time: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=108508

But I agree with you, Brian, and that's definitely a huge advantage of HDV on tape -- the cassette is its own archive.

Heath McKnight November 21st, 2007 03:37 PM
Z7=HDMI, the shoulder mount=SD HDI.

heath

Brian Standing November 21st, 2007 04:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hurd (Post 779597)
Actually the EX1 is indeed shipping at this time: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=108508
Ah, didn't see that, thanks for the update. I was going off the B&H site which still says "taking orders."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hurd (Post 779597)
But I agree with you, Brian, and that's definitely a huge advantage of HDV on tape -- the cassette is its own archive.
Or, for that matter, of XDCAM disk vs. XDCAM-EX.

David Heath November 21st, 2007 05:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Standing (Post 779636)
Or, for that matter, of XDCAM disk vs. XDCAM-EX.
I suspect what Chris was referring to is that the 270 gives you the advantages of solid state working AND the archival advantages of tape - both recordings made at the same time.

Be nice to see a camera which recorded to XDCAM disc and SxS at the same time, for all the same reasons.

Brian Standing November 21st, 2007 09:39 PM
Aside from having redundant backups, I'm not sure I understand what the real benefit of recording simultaneously to XDCAM disc and to SxS memory would be.

For tape and flash, the dual hybrid system makes sense to me, since tape is archival, but can only be captured in a linear fashion, while the flash memory is nonlinear, random access, but essentially ephemeral. So the two media complement each other nicely. You dump the flash card onto your hard drive, re-use the card for the next shoot, and put the tape in the vault.

However, XDCAM disc is both random-access AND long-lived enough to be considered archival, so I don't see the advantage of a dual disc/flash system.

Am I missing something?

Mike Marriage November 22nd, 2007 04:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Standing (Post 779800)
Am I missing something?
You'd get faster offloading from SxS than XDCAM discs.

David Heath November 22nd, 2007 04:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Marriage (Post 779929)
You'd get faster offloading from SxS than XDCAM discs.
Thanks Mike, exactly, AND no need for any separate reader - just plug the card into a suitable laptop. It would also open the door for instant editing - just plug card in and edit without actual downloading - which may be useful for rush, fairly simple edits.

The argument in the past has always been that solid state is best for getting to an "edit ready" state - but you then have to actively backup/archive. This now allows a certain amount of having cake AND eating it.

Piotr Wozniacki November 22nd, 2007 05:19 AM
This might sound silly, but has anyone heard of a possibility to copy any type of files to a miniDV tape? I'm buying the EX1, but keeping my V1E - now, it'd be nice to be able to use the miniDV tapes as archives for BOTH! But of course the only obvious way of printing to such tape is what the NLE/V1E allows, and this is just the 1080/50i format... Any way of storing other format as raw files?

Chris Hurd November 22nd, 2007 10:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki (Post 779957)
a possibility to copy any type of files to a miniDV tape?
Yes. There is a program called DV Backup:

http://www.coolatoola.com/

http://www.jakeludington.com/project...dv_camera.html

http://www.imaging-resource.com/SOFT/DVB/DVB.HTM

The primary drawback is the time requirement; your camcorder's tape transport can't operate in record mode any faster than it was designed to run, so it'll take one hour to fill a standard Mini DV cassette with appx. 15 GB of data. But it certainly is a viable option.


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