Rolling shutter example

Andrew Wheatley · June 17th, 2008, 11:22 PM

I hope you are wrong Robert, cause I just put down for a Z7...even though I really wanted CCD (all the other features of the Z7 seem perfect!).

In regards to the earlier rolling shutter example, if you had your shutter speed at the same speed as your frame rate the effect is quite diminished. The 300 shutter speed means you get those little white bars that look nasty, a move even speed means you get a larger portion of the frame exposed and it looks a lot better. (mind you this is all hearsay from my research I have been shooting on FX1s and Z1s since they came out...skipped the V1 cause they looked nasty).

Tom Hardwick · June 18th, 2008, 12:42 AM

I'm with Ron on this one. I shoot a lot of weddings and part of the excitement is the flashflashflash of the paparazzi as the couple cut the cake, enter the room, dance together.

One of my wedding this year was shot on the EX1 and the 'half-exposed' flash frames just annoy the pants off me, whereas the Z1 handles the situation in a far more aesthetically pleasing manner.

Here's a couple of frames from the EX1. When a lot of such frames occur together it's horrible. OK, a flash is just a frame out of 25 that second, but even so, the Z1 wins this competition.

tom.

Robert Bec · June 18th, 2008, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Hayes

Um, i think it is the EX3, and will be at a HIGHER price point than the Z7.

there will be a new camera release dont get me wrong i am busting to buy the Z7 but mainly doing weddings i just dont know if it's the correct choice

Robert Bec · June 18th, 2008, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slobodan Milivojevic Bobansky

Hi,
for those that don't know how rolling shutter problem looks,
please take a look at this clip.
U should see big white squares when somebody flashes with photo camera.

www.bobansky.com/rolling_shutter.wmv

I cant get the link to work

Rob

Slobodan Milivojevic Bobansky · June 18th, 2008, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Bec

I cant get the link to work

Rob

It is working!
Try to click over link with a right mouse button, and "save link as:"

Scott Hayes · June 18th, 2008, 06:58 AM

Tom, that looks like shit. damn. i can't see plunking down that kind of money for
a camera that performs like this. I am going to ask my Sony rep if indeed a
new CCD camera is coming out.

Aaron Lucas · June 18th, 2008, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Hayes

Um, i think it is the EX3, and will be at a HIGHER price point than the Z7.

nope, the EX3 is essentially identical to the EX1 save for the form factor and interchangeable lens mount.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Hayes

Tom, that looks like shit. damn. i can't see plunking down that kind of money for
a camera that performs like this. I am going to ask my Sony rep if indeed a
new CCD camera is coming out.

The next CCD camera from Sony will be the PDW700 - already in the hands of many broadcasters who are working the Olympics. If there is another one coming then its being kept VERY quiet and I'd be surprised if there is another new camera this year.

Scott Hayes · June 18th, 2008, 07:33 AM

$30,000. WAAAAYYYY out of my price range.

Tom Hardwick · June 18th, 2008, 07:34 AM

Of course it looks pretty horrible if you film a police car or ambulance (say) that has electronic flashes on its roof - you get given the same 'partially-exposed frames' of course.

Thing is no two frames are alike - the over-exposure can be the top third, the bottom half. the top three-quarters - you name it.

But I doubt very much if Sony will revert to CCDs over this CMOS special. It affects my wedding films greatly, but most other folk will be unmoved by my complaint.

tom.

Scott Hayes · June 18th, 2008, 07:37 AM

the only solution to this is the new Panasonic HPX-170. OR, for Sony to sell the
compact flash recorder separate, which is what I really want!

Aaron Lucas · June 18th, 2008, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Hayes

the only solution to this is the new Panasonic HPX-170. OR, for Sony to sell the
compact flash recorder separate, which is what I really want!

The HVRMRC1 will be made available separately in around November I believe. Not 100% on that at the moment ...

Scott Hayes · June 18th, 2008, 07:41 AM

wonder what they will be priced at? $1500 a pop is my guess. it would cost me
slightly more than that to sell my Z1 and get a Z7.

Robert Bec · June 18th, 2008, 03:38 PM

Slobodan i checked out your footage you posted camera flashes and the Z7 dont mix at all looks like crap.

This is why the Z7 is not selling that well in Sydney i dont know about the rest of the world but alot of people here have cancelled orders due to this issue.
What a disappointment this is supposed to be a professional camera i would understand if they use cmos in consumer cameras but in bloody PRO CAMERAS.

Go back to CCD i will pay Sony cut corners use cheaper material and still charge a fortune IT IS ALL ABOUT PROFIT nothing more nothing less

No disrespect to anyone that owns a Z7 i guess for documentary and corporate usage it's fine but if anyone thinks that camera flashes look fine you are in denial

Rob

Bruce G. Cleveland · June 18th, 2008, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Bec

Slobodan i checked out your footage you posted camera flashes and the Z7 dont mix at all looks like crap.

This is why the Z7 is not selling that well in Sydney i dont know about the rest of the world but alot of people here have cancelled orders due to this issue.
What a disappointment this is supposed to be a professional camera i would understand if they use cmos in consumer cameras but in bloody PRO CAMERAS.

Go back to CCD i will pay Sony cut corners use cheaper material and still charge a fortune IT IS ALL ABOUT PROFIT nothing more nothing less

No disrespect to anyone that owns a Z7 i guess for documentary and corporate usage it's fine but if anyone thinks that camera flashes look fine you are in denial

Rob

The flashes do look fine Rob and no I am not in denial.

Bruce

Ryan Valle · June 18th, 2008, 04:15 PM

Depending on the situation, the flashes to me look fine sometimes and look horrible at others. A single flash, as I have seen in some clips, look okay as a single frame passes by most viewers almost un-noticed. When you have rapid fire flashes, then that is where I'd get worried with the camera. Other situations which look horrible on this camera, are electronic flashes found on cop cars or ambulances, as have been mentioned.

So pretty much, I wouldn't say someone is in denial if they say flashes look fine, but this is an issue which shouldn't be ignored by sony. As far as I know, the Z7 is a first generation camera in its class, so this problem gives the camera lots of room for improvement in my opinion, so hopefully, sony will address it in the z7 replacement (Z8?).

June 18th, 2008, 12:42 AM	#17
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	I'm with Ron on this one. I shoot a lot of weddings and part of the excitement is the flashflashflash of the paparazzi as the couple cut the cake, enter the room, dance together. One of my wedding this year was shot on the EX1 and the 'half-exposed' flash frames just annoy the pants off me, whereas the Z1 handles the situation in a far more aesthetically pleasing manner. Here's a couple of frames from the EX1. When a lot of such frames occur together it's horrible. OK, a flash is just a frame out of 25 that second, but even so, the Z1 wins this competition. tom. Attached Thumbnails

June 17th, 2008, 11:22 PM	#16
Andrew Wheatley Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 26	I hope you are wrong Robert, cause I just put down for a Z7...even though I really wanted CCD (all the other features of the Z7 seem perfect!). In regards to the earlier rolling shutter example, if you had your shutter speed at the same speed as your frame rate the effect is quite diminished. The 300 shutter speed means you get those little white bars that look nasty, a move even speed means you get a larger portion of the frame exposed and it looks a lot better. (mind you this is all hearsay from my research I have been shooting on FX1s and Z1s since they came out...skipped the V1 cause they looked nasty).

June 18th, 2008, 06:58 AM	#21
Scott Hayes Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Lexington, KY Posts: 692	Tom, that looks like shit. damn. i can't see plunking down that kind of money for a camera that performs like this. I am going to ask my Sony rep if indeed a new CCD camera is coming out.

June 18th, 2008, 07:33 AM	#23
Scott Hayes Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Lexington, KY Posts: 692	$30,000. WAAAAYYYY out of my price range.

June 18th, 2008, 07:34 AM	#24
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	Of course it looks pretty horrible if you film a police car or ambulance (say) that has electronic flashes on its roof - you get given the same 'partially-exposed frames' of course. Thing is no two frames are alike - the over-exposure can be the top third, the bottom half. the top three-quarters - you name it. But I doubt very much if Sony will revert to CCDs over this CMOS special. It affects my wedding films greatly, but most other folk will be unmoved by my complaint. tom.

June 18th, 2008, 07:37 AM	#25
Scott Hayes Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Lexington, KY Posts: 692	the only solution to this is the new Panasonic HPX-170. OR, for Sony to sell the compact flash recorder separate, which is what I really want!

June 18th, 2008, 07:41 AM	#27
Scott Hayes Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Lexington, KY Posts: 692	wonder what they will be priced at? $1500 a pop is my guess. it would cost me slightly more than that to sell my Z1 and get a Z7.

June 18th, 2008, 03:38 PM	#28
Robert Bec Major Player Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 358	Slobodan i checked out your footage you posted camera flashes and the Z7 dont mix at all looks like crap. This is why the Z7 is not selling that well in Sydney i dont know about the rest of the world but alot of people here have cancelled orders due to this issue. What a disappointment this is supposed to be a professional camera i would understand if they use cmos in consumer cameras but in bloody PRO CAMERAS. Go back to CCD i will pay Sony cut corners use cheaper material and still charge a fortune IT IS ALL ABOUT PROFIT nothing more nothing less No disrespect to anyone that owns a Z7 i guess for documentary and corporate usage it's fine but if anyone thinks that camera flashes look fine you are in denial Rob

June 18th, 2008, 04:15 PM	#30
Ryan Valle Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: North Hills, CA Posts: 40	Depending on the situation, the flashes to me look fine sometimes and look horrible at others. A single flash, as I have seen in some clips, look okay as a single frame passes by most viewers almost un-noticed. When you have rapid fire flashes, then that is where I'd get worried with the camera. Other situations which look horrible on this camera, are electronic flashes found on cop cars or ambulances, as have been mentioned. So pretty much, I wouldn't say someone is in denial if they say flashes look fine, but this is an issue which shouldn't be ignored by sony. As far as I know, the Z7 is a first generation camera in its class, so this problem gives the camera lots of room for improvement in my opinion, so hopefully, sony will address it in the z7 replacement (Z8?).