Z5 or Z7?
 

I currently own a Z1 and thought the Z5 was the natural choice for a next camera but then I noticed the Z5 sells for 3900 euro's and the Z7 for 4500. Since the Z7 includes the CF-recorder (worth around 700.- ?)and the option to change lenses, I would say there is no reason for me to buy the Z5...

Or am I missing something? (based in the Netherlands, btw)

Wolf

The Z7 may be seen as too big a step-up for a lot of current Z1 owners in as much as lots of them don't need the lens interchangeability and it's inability to work with their current non zoom-through wide-angle converters.

The Z5 seems a more logical Z1 replacement to me. It fights off the Canon XH-A1 by matching its 20x zoom, looks and feels like the Z1 and moves up in the low-light stakes by using CMOS chips.

But there go Sony again - subdividing the niche.

tom.

What is a z5? Is this the same as a z7u? If so the zoom is 12.

Hi Tom, thanks for the response. But you agree with me that -looking at these prices and given the fact I don't use WA converters- there is no reason for me NOT to buy the Z7.

I can get a Z7 for less the price than Z5 plus CF-recorder plus the ability to change lenses (which ups the second hand value, I imagine)

My big question is: Why did they price this -new- Z5 to be more expensive than the the Z7, based on the assumption that every potential Z5 buyer would want the optional CF-recorder? Or is this a wrong assumption? (and is't the issue of non-compatible WA converteres a marginal one?)

Wolf

Alex - would I lie to you?

Jeroen - if you're quoting real street prices (and the Z5 has yet to be given one of these in reality) then yes, the Z7 looks to be a better bet. But you've got to want and need to change lenses to go for this camera - as EX3 owners do over EX1 buyers. If you're off on safari, no question. If you're a run 'n' gun man then the 20x plus a slim wide-converter gives you a huge focal length range.

The Z5 is the one I'd choose to replace my Z1 with at this stage, but not before I'd had all three cameras laid out before me and a cool hour with which to play with them. The V1 was never in the running, but then I've always considered going down a chip size isn't an option.

tom.

I was about to go down the same path. IF you can find an EX1 in the $5500 range, snatch it up and don't look back. Now that there are viable cheap alternatives to the SxS cards, it makes no sense to spend $5400 on a 1/3" chip camera. Archival hard drive space is dirt cheap as well for backing up. Just something else to consider, unless you like having tape backup.

You know, I've been eyeing the EX's and feel terribly attracted to them. I finished a doc earlier this year and was thinking the EX1 would have made many scenes look much better than the Z1. Plus going tapeless seemed so 'clean'. (but you wind up with lots of big harddrives, as opposed to lots of small tapes...)
But I make my money doing clips that are posted on the web. Tape is an easy workflow- no dumping, no archiving. I don't even shoot HDV anymore- why bother for the web? Or even for DVD? Editing DV is quick and painless. I don't know about XDCAM. I have the feeling things have to be sorted out by a number of parties before it's smooth and reliable. The words of a late adopter...

So that's why I've slowly started to consider the Z7/5. I like the lowlight features. And I get to experiment with a little CF-stuff on the side. (does that CF-recorder work on a Z1 as well?)

However, my heart still throbs for the EX-series... how much did you say those cheap alternative SXS cards go for, Scott?

The hands on preview by B & H seemed to indicate that the Z5 has a slight advantage in low light when compared to the Z7. Even though they both have 1/3" CMOS sensors. The Z5 is supposed to have slightly better processing resulting in the slight advantage. I have a V1 and a 20X lens is nice. Too many choices. Someday they will have the "perfect" camcorder so the choice will be easy.

I cant see the Z5 being slightly better in low light they are mechanically the same except for the lens. I know the Z5 will be much lighter and alittle lighter then the Z1

Both are rated at 1.5 lux at 1/25th shutter speed at autogain (probably 18db)

big heavy hard drives? the SSD cards are the size of a stick of gum. You can get the Lexar 8gb cards for $40 each, and the Kensington ExpressCard adapter and San Disk Ultra II SDHC card will run you about $90-100. But thats 80 minutes per slot. dump them to your puter via usb card reader when you get home. I suggest browsing the XDCAM forum.

I have seen the 1.5 lux specs myself. BUT, B & H said the Z5 now incorporates "Exmor" technology. I don't know, does the Z7 have Exmor processing? One of the benefits of the Exmor processing is it supposed to have slightly better low light performance. It is also supposed to have slightly better color reproduction or some other similar claims. Maybe it was just propoganda since no one that I know of has actually done a real life test. I am just repeating what B & H said. It could be all lies.

I'm pretty sure he was referring to archiving card-captured footage on hard drives, rather than having boxes of HD tapes as an archive. You'd need a lot of 1TB drives over time to capture those 16GB and 32GB cards over and over and over.

Luckily the WD "Green" 1TB drives are about $129 now and building a small RAID is easy.

Yes, auto gain. Sony seem to have gone stupid and started quoting low light lux figures with a shutter speed you'd never (willingly) use. Why don't they say it's a half-lux camera then, and keep stum about the 1/6th sec shutter speed?

I think they wanted to make it look as if it nearly matched the PD150.

tom.

One of the reasons I am planning to purchase the Z7 is because of the ability to put the camera into non-servo, truly manual focus. I see that another difference between the Z7 and the Z5 is that the Z5 is a servo assisted focus only camera which I would presume is a negative point.

I would be interested in hearing comments from those of you who use the Z7 in non-servo assisted mode as to how use full you find this feature to be.

Mark

I was indeed talking about harddrives for backup, Scott.

@Tom: what are your considerations when comparing the EX1 and Z5 for your line of work? You do a lot of weddings- the big chips/lowlight performance of the EX should be a winning factor for you. Not to mention the variable framerate for all that romantic stuff...

The EX1 is going to give better pictures, period. And I'm talking SD DVDs in an upscaling player into a big, modern flat panel. I know - I've tried it.

It'll also be better in low light - chips with nearly twice the surface area will see to that.

Slo-mo at the scene is a wonderful idea, but in real-life run'n' gun wedding work it's as well to capture what's happening as it unfolds as cleanly and 'normally' as possible.

Then you can filter and (variable) slo-mo to your heart's content in post, and more importantly, hit the undo button.

But I just love the 17 mm equivalent non-distorting wide-angle that I use on the Z1 and that I expect to work on the Z5. The Fujinon-lensed Sonys don't like my Aspheron, so they drop a notch in my wants book.

Also, my charge rates to brides don't (in my view) warrant using a camera that costs the same as a car, so the EX1 stays as wishful thinking. The Z1 makes lovely wedding films, gain-up and all.

tom.

Z5 is going for USD4700 without the CF writer. The Z7 is USD5700. Prices are from expandore.com without warranty. The street prices in the US should be above those listed. The $1000 diff makes the Z5 a good choice. One thing you will not like about the Z5 is the rolling shutter issue that happens in all CMOS cams.

I used to use an FX1 for weddings and gone up to the EX1 this year. I look the EX1 but it is a lot more demanding on the operator as it has to be operated 100% manually or u will get into big trouble any time. The FX1 was quite a nice autopilot cam which did the job well. HOwever I have no regrets for the additional func to over/under crank and the low light of a 1/2" CMOS is indeed a gem for those nasty ballrooms.

Biz perspective wise, u will have to call the shots based on how much yr customers will be willing to pay if u shoot in HD. After all, we will still be delivering SD on mpeg2 for one to two more years in my opinion so unless u like to use timelapse shots in yr wed videos, the Z5 is the obvious choice.

Today, B & H lists the Z7 @ $5379.95 USD. Last week I found some box store that had it for $5099.99. And they had great feedback, as well. If the current rumors are correct about the street price of the Z5 being $4800 - $4900, it makes the Z7 look pretty attractive since it already comes with the CF card recorder.

Z7U all the way!
 

I choose Z7U for the following: Removable lens with true manual, 18x digital extender (very good, no digital artifact), tape and CF record at the same time (a must for event videography), ergonomics, very good price at $5399.95 at B&H, and looks sexy too ;), very good in low light and best of all, mic attenuation from -18db to 12db(I need this when shooting a very loud live band). There are a lot more features, but these are all my favorites. I do event videography, so make sense to choose this cam.

Jun

I chose a Z7 six months ago for the dual record format, the ability to do DVCAM and HDV and the interchangeable lens.

I have now added an S270 a mike tapa nikon mount and now have a great HDV workflow with compact flash and tape back-up producing new TV strands in final cut pro with pro res masters in full 1080i 25p HD 422.

I've just had a good play with the Z5 at the IOV's video forum up in Coventry. I like it - though there are no street prices here in the UK to be had yet.

The 20x zoom is f/1.6 to f/3.5 (as the Canon XH-A1) and best of all the v'finders have no overscan at all. At last! On top of that it works beautifully with my Aspheron wide-angle converter. The same lens vignettes on the Z7's Zeiss lens and won't focus at all on the EX1's Fujinon.

Must look to sell the trusty Z1.

tom.

I'll be repeating a lot of what has already been said, but wanted to throw my 2 cents in.

Z5 + CF card adapter is your best choice if:
1. You want tape back up.
2. You have no plans of buying another lens
3. You use auto focus. (A lot of people here have issue w/ the Z7 auto focus, imho I wouldn't recommend spending $2k+++ on any camera if you don't know how to focus on your own.)
4. You like to put a lens on a lens. (ie wide angle / telephoto adapter on a lens).
5. You want 20x lens standard.
6. You don't mind CMOS.
7. You want better low light.

Z7 is the best choice if:
1. You want the option of different lenses. (MTF Nikon adapter is a cheap way to get a freakishly amazing telephoto lens at a great price).
2. You want tape back up.
3. You don't mind CMOS.
4. You want better low light.

S270 is best if:
1-4: (same as Z7)
5. You want 4 channels of audio.
6. You want HD/SDI output.
7. You want a shoulder mounted camera.
8. You want to use large size DVCam tapes.

Canon XH-A1 if:
1. You want CCD.
2. You want good low light.
3. You don't need to zoom & focus at the same time.
4. You don't need easy non-tape recording.
5. You might be shooting w/ other top of the line Canon HDV cameras & want easy "scene sync" between cameras.

Sony EX1 if:
1. You want the best picture quality for the price. (Full rastor baby!)
2. You don't need tape back up.
3. You great frame rate control.
4. You have lots of hard drive back up.
5. You want even BETTER low light.
6. You don't mind CMOS.

Sony EX3 if:
1-6. (Same as EX1)
7. Want to be able to change lenses.


did I miss anything?

You two things on EX1 and EX3; more expensive memory cards and there is no SD. You have to convert the HD files to SD which to me seems a waste of time. Or has it been solved?

The EX1 and EX3 can also use cheaper SDHC cards with the Kensington Reader and you can convert to SD with clip browser 2.0, but why would you want to do such a thing.

FX1000 or Z5
 

We need to pick up another 2nd camera for our weddings and I'm having trouble deciding on the FX1000 or Z5. Is it fair to say that its a similar situation to the FX1-Z1 cameras? They are mostly the same, but without XLR's and a few menu options? Are the optics the same? Low light performance?

Yes, I'd say (without seeing the FX1000 yet) that they'll go after the same market that the FX1 and Z1 did. So the Z5 will have DVCAM and SP whereas the FX1000 will have SP and LP.

Optics and lowlight will be the same but the FX won't have black stretch or so many menu options.

tom.

Is the z7 PAL/NTSC switchable?

No - the Z1 was switchable, but Sony seemed to have dropped that now - though the Z7 cammera can be converted (presumably for a cost).

Z7 PAL/NSTC conversions
 

I spoke to a high level Sony rep once and and he confirmed that it's possible to have a Z7 converted to be switchable between PAL & NTSC. Unfortunately, Sony will not perform this conversion in North America, presumably because they're afraid of the market being flooded by grey market cameras:-(

Hoi

Z5 or Z7, the question continues
 

As posted elsewhere, B&H now has the Z5 listed on their web site for $4299. They have the Z7 currently listed at $5299. They list the MRC1 at $845. So the Z7 winds up being $155.00 more than the Z5 with the MRC1. But the Z7 has the interchangeable lens capability. The Z5 has Exmor technology which should be a plus according to Sony's propaganda and it has a 20x zoom compared to the Z7's 12x lens. On the other hand, the Z7's lens has better controls and that is a plus. Tough choice.

Z7 has Exmor too :)

Jun

Your right. My bad. Sony suckered me in with some of their literature saying this was the first 1/3" CMOS camcorder with Exmor Technology. But I should have known better. When they introduced the V1 is was the first to offer progressive scan. When they introduced the Z7 and S270 they made a similar claim. And they said something similar when the Z5 was introduced as well. Sneaky ad people.

its a tough choice but i think the Z5 will handle better given its smaller size? I wouldnt be changing lens if i'm a wedding videographer. The 20x zoom would be nice.

The Z7 has 1.5 digital extender to make it 18x, close to 20x. I have shot a concert with the digital extender on. No artifacts or blocks.

Jun

I have not had the same results. I find it awful and useless. Personal preference I guess.

Keithdbf

I have owned a VX2100 with 20x digital zoom but it's useless but the Z7 digital extender is very useful if you can't get closer.

does anyone know what the 20x "mm" range is on the Z5 is?

Z1 is 4.5mm to 54mm
Z7 is 4.4mm to 52.8mm

I'm guessing that the Z5 would be something like 4.4mm to 88mm, but it could go wider and be like 3.5mm to 70mm which would almost negate the need of wide angle adapter

Well in 35mm terms, the range will be 29.5mm (max.wide) to 590mm (max.tele).

(Personally i always think of focal length ranges in 35mm-equiv terms as otherwise you always need to consider the real focal lenght of the lens together with the size of the sensor).

4.1-82 mm...