Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

Good stuff Craig, thanks. yeah, I started on film. You could push it around a little using different types of chemical baths, or slightly exposing it or a few other tricks, but yeah, the color/gamma was "baked" in as well.

Maybe that's why I don't care for shooting an ultraflat profile...

One other question - do you know if using the backlight feature adds any negative things (like grain, etc)?

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

No, not that I've noticed. There's also little or no colour banding with the VG20 either and that's rare win an 8 bit colour camera recording to the AVCHD compressed codec. This is more evident with H.264. A fix for banding is adding 'grain mattes' (eg: rGrain) in post but I've never had the need to use them.

As with all these exposure/backlight 'tweaks', each user should experiment with their particular combination of gain/fps/shutter/lens combo to see what works best for them.

There's some good tech info on Schneider's website: https://www.schneideroptics.com/ecom....aspx?CID=1218

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

Thanks again Craig.

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

Craig and John:

Some interesting discussions going on here. I talked myself into the Black Magic CInema Camera last year when it was announced, and I ordered it early on. While involved in the seemingly endless wait for the camera, I bought a used Black Magic Shuttle2 recording unit, and shot it with my VG20. Plan was to learn a bit about working with the Black Magic codec, and with Resolve Lite pending arrival of the Cinema rig.

I have to say, without actually performing any quantifying testing, I think use of the Black Magic recorder with the VG20 resulted in a Prores file with a lot more dynamic range than results from the VG20 in camera output. This is something I will do a bit more testing on and post here.

As John might remember, I have been using a lot of my vintage Nikon and Pentax glass on the camera. The kit lens has been handy for hand held shooting, given the steady camera feature.

My original foray into the large sensor camera was with the original Canon 5D Mark II. I was intimately involved in testing of Magic Lantern, because of the promise of that first large sensor. And of course, the reason that many continue to use DSLRs for Cinema type shooting is that equipment and gear has been adapted for that purpose.

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

Hi Chris, I think my 'downunder' countrymen at BMD are on a real winner here with the three 'Cinema' variations, especially the M4/3 'pocket' version. I nearly bought a Shuttle 2 last month.

Although I've not yet performed my own tests, I was not sufficiently convinced of the quality advantage to part with my $$$ for the Shuttle 2 based on the 'cost to operate' as compared to recording native AVCHD then immediately transcoding to and editing with 10 bit codecs such as ProRes or DNxHD. I'm waiting for BMD to offer a portable 'HDMI to SD Card Recorder' now that they have successfully introduced the concept with the Pocket Cinema camera!

As I write, I'm attempting to configure and balance up my huge vintage Carl Zeiss 300mm F4 to the matte box, rails, follow focus and tripod. The entire 'bazooka' is nearly a yard long and as the tripod connects under the lens, the comparatively tiny VG20 simply 'hangs off' the back!

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

Chris, can you tell me what adapter you are using with your Nikon glass?

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

Hi Ron:

Because my old vintage Nikons are totally mechanical, I bought dumb adapters. I wasn't particularly concerned about the adapter brand. Just bought via EBay. I just searched Nikon to NEX on ebay. Here is an example of what out there.

nikon to nex in Lenses & Filters | eBay


With my Pentax mount, also bought for a few dollars on Ebay, I had to do some minor filing to fit it property. .

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

I too use the cheap dumb adapters for the Zeiss primes and they're great but as Metabones now have the Speedbooster in C/Y to NEX, it's high on my list as I'll gain back the stop I lose when I fit my Mutar 2x Extender between the lens and adapter.

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

Thanks, for the link. I ordered one for my Nikon glass. Now I have to figure out what I am going to do for my Canon glass.

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

Wow. You are braver than I! Nice flying too.

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

Hey guys I picked up a NEX VG-30 and when I push the Program AE button I get this message (Set the adjustment for brightness to auto) I have looked thru all the menus and I can not find a brightness anything to set to auto. Has anyone else got this message, and if so what am I supposed to do?

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

I would assume they are talking about the iris adjustment needing to be set to 'auto' so when you push the Program AE button, all features of the camera are set to 'auto'

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

Everything including iris is set to auto. When I press Program AE button it does reset everything to auto but it still gives the (Set the adjustment for brightness to auto) message. Please anyone that has a VG-30 please push the Program AE button and see if you get a quick message that tells you to (Set the adjustment for brightness to auto). Thank You.

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

What card to buy for VG-30? I have tried a PNY in my VG-30 and it is hit or miss it wants to re-insert or re-format the card often. What card do you guys recomend?

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

Make sure it's a class 10. I had some of the same issues you describe and it was because the card was too slow.

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

Transends have never messed up on me yet (class 10 of course).

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

Transcends 32gigs from BH at about $20 a few months back are just great for me with the VG20 too.

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

Also used a Sandisk 64gb (class 10) card with no problems either.

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

So how are those who bought a VG30 getting on with their cameras? I am finding it very hard to find any quality videos or reviews. It seems that very few people have the camera. Any feed back?

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

This is one of those camera lines that no one brags about using. Over at Vimeo, I have a group, and there is another one, and its seems most of the use I see there is wedding, commercial, and a bit of narrative stuff. Seems most useful for event work wjere extemsive color correction is not planned.

I had someone say the other day that the VG 30 had scene setting capability, which I was not aware of. I still own a VG20. I am curious if I missed something there, as I have been concentrating on learning a bit about the Black Magic line.

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

Chris,
as far as I know it doesn't have scene settings. Does the image break up if you colour correct? I convert everything to ProRes so it might be less of a problem than trying to colour correct the native files.
Going by the videos in the VG30 groups in Vimeo is seems most popular in eastern Europe. There's some good stuff and some pretty awful stuff but that's the case with any camera really. The thing is there is little comparing it to it's rivals, which to me are the aps-c dslrs, mft cameras and the sony ea-50, especially in real situations like weddings, documentary, commercial and corporate work etc.

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

Essentially, with the codec, the color setting and contrast are pretty much baked in. Yes, you can adjust somewhat in post, but it just isn't the same as using something like Cinestyle on the Canon DSLRs.

I ve shot my VG 20 recording out to a Black Magic Shuttle 2 recorder. using the Prores codec available there. While I didn't do any grading of the files because they were turned over to the producer, they appeared to carry more information in the highs and lows that would withstand color correction better.

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

I agree with you Chris.The 8 bit 4:2:0 AVCHD codec was brilliantly designed to capture saturated detail and to be dumped to BD with minimal manipulation. In fact, I'll go so far as to say anyone trying to 'colour correct' any 8 bit compressed codec in post is wasting their time. They are not editing codecs like ProRes or DNxHD so not designed for that application and they do not have the required headroom.

Recording 4:2:2 direct to an SSD recorder is a great alternative as you have discovered but there is the additional expense, complication and none of the affordable SSD recorders will generate timecode nor will they yet record 50/60P only 50/60i. Consequently, I occasionally shoot with a Schneider Optics 'lowcon' filter which reduces highlights and lifts blacks thereby compressing the image in a similar way an audio circuit compresses sound prior to recording. Of course for maximum benefit, the image must be decompressed in post so rather than go out to a 3rd party recorder, I've found transcoding native AVCHD immediately to ProRes 10 bit 444 and working with this in post is a much better solution as the 10 bit signal offered much more headroom.

My current transcoder generates and inserts timecode and reel numbers into the 10 bit intermediates and proxies simultaneously, during the transcode thereby creating a very efficient, high quality and cost effective post production workflow for those wanting to get the best possible quality from the VG series.

I have uploaded some typical stills and screen grabs from a recent shoot in Japan in my reply to this post: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-avc...ll-camera.html (The difference in contrast and overall sharpness of the shots using the Zeiss/Metabones/Heliopan combo is immediately obvious, even in the thumbnails)

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

Craig, thanks for the info.
I still think it´s weird that there is so little info on these cameras. Could it be because they are significantly more expensive than the canon aps-c dslrs?
Has anyone actually done a side by side test with a vg30 and a canon 7d, 600d, 700d or even 70d?
I´ve searched all over the net and I can´t find anything.

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

It seems Sony has a hard time selling these type of camera's, I saw the vg900 yesterday sold with a free offer of the Sony XLR-K1M xlr adapter, that's a 800 euro piece, for free... That's something you don't do if a camera sells well, they might give you a lenscap for free but not a expensive xlr adapter. :)

It might be the formfactor that looks to much like a handycam that could be the cause, and actually this is a much better formfactor to shoot video with then a dslr but maybe people are concerned about how they look with the camera in a professional environment.

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

Bingo! ... For me any way, or I would of stuck to using VG10's or 20's and never got my EA50. Fact is, these camcorders have 'HANDYCAM' plastered on the side ... and your being paid as a professional, ufcourse you will be self-conscious. Nothing is worse than some one coming up to you and saying oh, handycam? dont you shoot with the big cameras anymore.

EDIT: having said that ... if you 'flower' up the way the camcorder looks like Craig did with the matte box and so on, it definitely looks the part. But here I go again about looks ... fact is, just learn your tool well enough to deliver the best product possible!

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

I bought an EA50s lens hood for my VG30 to help keep light off the lens. Bonus that it now looks like a "real" camera. I have a genus matte box that I occasionally use with some Samyang lenses but I usually run them with their stock hoods.

The most glaring omission is the lack of picture profiles. I also use a NEX 5R and 6 with custom creative style settings and have to match the VG30 footage's contrast and saturation to them in post.

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

Personally, I'm not so sure about the worries as to whether a camera looks pro or not are such a big problem. Most clients accept that you might turn up with a photo camera to shoot a video. Unless you use a tiny palmcam most cameras could be pro now or have pro images, especially for web or dvd/bluray. The vg30 looks pretty big compared to some pro cams. I've yet to find any special offers on the vg900 and vg30 here in Spain although I'll keep an eye on the prices.

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

I"m sure it's not an issue if you turn up at a client with a camera that has handycam printed on the side, as long as they know what you deliver, if you do corporate shoots and charge accordingly then it might be an issue though, if you want I can send you the link of the site that did offer the XLR-K1M for free with a vg900 camera, it was a Dutch store.

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

In comparison with the Canon line codec, there is nothing wrong with the codec on the VG line. The problem is with Sony's unwillingness to allow the user to adjust the picture and to set up profiles. The crippling of the camera line like that was clearly intended dissuade pro users from going that route over the FS line on their drawing boards.

In Sony's prerelease advertisement the picture profiles were included as a feature, I ordered my VG 20 the day of the release from the Sony store based on that. After challenging them for months on the advertising and the missing feature, I was offered a $ 200 refund on the purchase. Eventually, they changed the advertisement and features list..

I believe the VG line could have been a killer line if the controls had been provided. Sony was clearly shortsighted in its marketing plan, given the EOS line and the Black Magic line that has developed during the same period. But Sony likely will not fix that with a firmware upgrade to existing cameras. Instead, a new model may be sold that does what should have been done in the first place, and it will be called a pro model for a grand more. That is typical Sony and big camera manufacturer marketing.

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

Oddly, I've never had anyone comment about the 'handycam' logo. Mostly, they say something like: "hey, that's a 'real' camera!" You can always flip the screen around should you wish to hide the 'handycam' logo.

On a recent trip into the Australian 'outback', I bumped into a production crew shooting a music video and over breakfast at our historic bush hotel, I struck up a conversation with the DOP. He was from Melbourne and shooting this one on his own RED Epic coupled to a Samurai Blade HDD recorder. As the conversation turned to cameras, the Arri Alexa and Sony F55 in particular, I asked him if he had shot any material on the Canon 5DMk11.

I was not prepared for the tirade which followed: "Too much" was his curt reply. "Grips hated it, crews hated it, gaffers hated it, editors hated it!" "Don't hold back" I muttered, buttering another piece of toast... "The only people who liked it and wanted us to use it were Producers because they had bought one but at the end of the day, the pictures really were crap from that dreadful H.264 codec".

These comments from someone who evidently knew what he was talking about surprised me a bit as the 5D Mk 11 was the camera I'd been constantly recommended just 18 months previously and a camera which still has an almost iconic following among DSLR enthusiasts all over the world. This makes me ask the question: with the power of 20/20 hindsight vision, will the recent exciting offerings from BlackMagic, Digital Bolex, etc. be regarded in a similar light in just a few years time or was the DSLR 'explosion' just that: a blip in time and technology?

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

Noa, the link could be interesting.
Chris, do you really find the lack of picture controls to be a big problem? From what I understand the sonys have a more robust avchd and the images might possibly stand up to more gradind even without flat settings.I convert to prores422. Would that help when grading?

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

just pm"d you

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

28mbs avchd falls apart quickly if you start pushing it around in post, it's alway better to create the look you want in camera and then do some minor adjustments in post.

Re: NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?
 

Another alternative for the VG series is to shoot 'flat' with a filter, then transcode the 8 bit AVCHD immediately to a 10 bit codec like DNxHD or ProRes 4444. You'll find considerably more 'headroom' available for 'colour correction' with a 10 bit NLE and 10 bit codec.