Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

Hi everybody,

I am just deciding whether to buy the FS100 together the NEX5+SEL18-55 or buying the FS100+SEL18-200 bundle. I am used to working with full manual lenses and do very much prefer that (in the 2/3-chip-world) to any automatic mode.

I heard bad thing about the kit-lenses in manual mode. But they do seem to serve as workhorses when it comes to a run-and-gun shot and there is no other camera available.

So should I buy the FS100/SEL18200 bundle or rather go for the FS100/NEX5+SEL1855? This FS100/NEX5 option would even be 500 Euros cheaper and provides me with an extra camera although I am not sure is this is any good in quality.

If I don't need the extra-zoom-factor of the 18-200 Kit lens, is the optical quality of both lenses up to 55 mm about equal?

Thank you so much!

Stephan

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

Stephan,

I would definitely would get the 18-200kit lens. I use it all the time for run and gun weddings. I just got done using it on an air show and it worked better than my NX-5. The lens has it short comings but it works very well with this camera. The stabilizing on this lens is fantastic. I have a friend that has the NEX-3 and the 18-200 and the 18-55 and the 16 and some extras for $1300 if your interested. He will piece it out.

Dan

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

Hi Dan
I have a question about the 18-200 kit lens
I found the video is not very sharp, not as sharp as i got from a 5Dmk2 with 24-105mm

is there any place in setting that i miss to improve the sharpness?

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

18-200 is pretty slow at 200mm unless you always shoot under bright light.
i will suggest to go for 18-55.... and use the rest of the money to get a nikon/fd/ef mount and get a fast tele lens

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

I expect when set to 55mm the 18-200 is actually faster than the 18-55.
That's certainly the same when I compare my Nikon 18-55 with my Nikon 18-200.

Remember these are lightweight, cheap zoom lenses. You can compare them with 2.8 fast zooms.

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

Thank you for sharing your ideas!

But I wonder how come that nobody spoke about the problems focusing manually with the kit-lens? Or aren't those problems as big as often described? I read that manual rack focusing was supposed to be almost impossible with the kit-lenses because of their servo-driven mechanism. Is it really not that bad or are you all using the lens in autofocus-mode?

BTW: Personally I don't like to use a Nikon lens, because of the reverse focus-direction. Otherwise I could use lenses from my D300. I was thinking of combing either the 18-55 or the 18-200 lens with the SEL50. Does anybody work with that combination and can maybe comment on the manual mode of the SEL50?

Have a great weekend!
Stephan

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

I have to disagree with most about the 18-200kit lens. Yes it has some problems but how many that are criticizing the lens has actually use it. I used it at an air show filling very fast planes and it did better than my NX-5 at staying in focus. This lens is a tool and there are situations were it won't work, mainly very dark venues. Here is my first wedding i did with the FS-100 and i was very happy how the lens worked. The very dark reception i use the 16m lens and some nikor primes.

Dan

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

How are you finding this lens for precise manual focussing

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

for the price of the 18-200mm kit lens, you can get a used nikon 80-200mm F2.8 and still have money left for a used 18-55mm kit lens

i change to 18-55, only use it when i really need auto focus and need IS. You will not like sony's lens if you like manual focus, specially the sony 50mm 1.8. I did a manual focus shoot on a dish of salad, pull the focus from one end to the other end, the focus ring turns over 360 degree to do it

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

@Stephan - There's an A-mount 16-50 f2.8 lens by Sony that can mount via an adapter that you may like. The adapter is expensive and has a restriction that when AF is active, can only stop down to f3.5. But since you are all manual, that won't matter I suppose.

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

Thanks for your replies!
I look forward to receiving my Novoflex-adapter in a few days and then working with a few non-Nikon lenses (because of the focus-ring-direction) with Nikon-mounts.

I'll give my 18-200 Nikon kit lens (that came with my D300) a chance anyhow. This way I am already used to lenses creeping downwards and extending when trying to focus something on the ground ;-) And I heard it should (optically) at least not be worse than the FS100-kit-lens. Hopefully I am right there? Anybody out with a lens like that?

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

I am a lazy guy that rely on autofocus in the past. After I use fs100's focus peaking, I don't need autofocus now. My hand is faster than the lens.
The only advantage from Sony emount lens are autofocus and IS

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

Good to hear that! Now I am even more looking forward to receiving my Nonoflex-adapter soon to work all manually.

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

You don't have to shoot with AF to use AF. Push-to-focus is a handy technique in many situations. ALso, it isn't just AF and IS. There's also auto exposure. This is also handy as a push-to-expose similar to push-to-focus as well as a fixed camera that has no operator. Time lapse is another handy use of AE.

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

Dan,
You mentioned that the FS100 with the kit lens worked better than your NX5. Are you talking about the NX5u with the 20x built-in lens? We do lots of live production work and did this event last year using one EX3 (behind stage) and three Sony Z5s:

2011 Ho`ike Preview - Halau Ka Waikahe Lani Malie and Halau Kahulaliwai - YouTube


We are going to either buy an NX5+Samurai or an FS100 and I am concerned that we won't be able to do the same quality production without $30k worth of lenses (that I can't afford). Let me know your thoughts...

Andrew

ps - The video was really to show the performings arts group a preview of their DVD, so we included all of the credits in this video.

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

I've been telling anyone who cares to listen to my advice NOT to buy the kit lens since I first got my hands on a pre-production FS100 before NAB last year. It is not a good match for the FS100 for many reasons besides just focusing. Save your money by buying the body only, and then use your savings to buy an adapter and any of the thousands of better SLR lenses that are out there.

MASTERING THE SONY NEX-FS100 CAMCORDER

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

Andrew,

Yes the NX-5u. I do live stage work too. I think I would get the FS-100 with the kit lens over the NX-5u unless you want to use the LANC control. The video above is almost 100% FS-100 and the 18-200 kit lens. The FS-100 will be cleaner using the AVCHD codec than the NX-5u with the samurai in my opinion.

Dan

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

I'm curious Doug. Why such disdain for the kit lens? What would you choose if you wanted IS/AF/AE? I know better to have a proper camcorder like a EX1, but if a FS100 has to do double duty as beauty Broll plus run and gun (without big support - dangerous for some self-shooters travelling light in developing countries) ... what lens would you recommend?

Cheers
Dave

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

Dave, I can't really tell you what would be better than the kit lens because there are so many options that I couldn't begin to list them all. There are probably hundreds of new lenses, and thousands of used lenses that would be better for the FS100. Furthermore, a better lens for me, might not be a better lens for you. Everyone has different needs and different budgets.

What I can do is tell you what I don't like about the kit lens:

First of all, the aperture is not constant throughout the zoom range which makes it quite a bit harder to set your exposure because every time you change the focal length the exposure will almost always change. That is a pain in the ass compensate for.

Second, at the widest angle, f/3.5 is pretty slow by professional lens standards. And f/6.3 at the telephoto end is a joke. A lot of people buy the FS100 because it has a large sensor, and then they shoot themselves in the foot by putting a slow lens on it that kills any chance of getting shallow depth of field anyway.

Third, the focus ring doesn’t have hard stops.

Fourth, the lens practically doubles in length when you zoom, thus making it nearly impossible to use a matte box.

Fifth, do you really want to sink $800 into an e-Mount lens? All things being equal, wouldn't you rather be investing in lenses with a Canon, Nikon, or Alpha mount?

Sixth, the lens and camera have terrible auto-focus capabilities. Of course you don't have to use it, but having auto-focus on a camera that is supposed to be designed for professionals just lulls people into using a crutch that is not even a good crutch. In other words, having bad auto-focus is worse than having no auto-focus at all.

Seven, where's the iris ring? Oh, it doesn't have one! A proper video lens should have an iris ring on the lens instead of a thumb wheel. Yeah, I know that's better than Canon lenses, but at least Canon lenses don't claim to be designed for video use. And I have the same complaint about them anyway.

Eighth, I'm not a huge fan of zooming while shooting, but if that is something you want to do, the lens does not have any servo zoom controls that you expect to find on a TV/video lens.

And ninth, it is physically impossible to build a quality lens that covers such a huge focal length range and does it well -- and then sell it for $800. Just think about it. There are reasons why decent glass costs what it costs and anyone who thinks they are getting anything other than a consumer lens for that price is just fooling themselves.

When I consider what lens to buy or use, it must meet at least two criteria that this lens does not meet: It must be at least f/2.8 and have a constant aperture throughout almost all of the zoom range.

Why buy a substandard lens when Sony gives you the option of saving hundreds of dollars and buying the body only??

That's my reasons why I don't recommend the kit lens. Other people will disagree and claim the lens is terrific, so I guess you'll have see what they are shooting with it. But what you won't see is what they missed because the lens is harder to work with or can't perform up to certain standards.

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

That's an exhaustive list Doug. Much appreciated!

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

it's not a bad idea to keep a kit lens, i sold my 18-200 and get a used 18-55 for run and gun
there is over $600 difference, you can add $200 to buy a nikon 80-200 F2.8, or use the $600 to buy a 35mm F1.4

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

I am not going to set myself up as an apologist for Sony's SEL18200, but taking it as a 'trick' or 'special purpose' lens in the kit bag, which may get used 10% of the time, I will stick my neck over the parapet to say that it does have some uses.

1) It momentarily turns your FS100 into a Faux EX1 - f8 on the FS100 eyeballs to the equivalent of f2.8 on the EX1

2) There are times when things are moving so fast in ObDoc and event videography* that you don't have time to change lenses (the other sort of missed shot).

3) The combination of IS and AF when supporting the camera on a monopod, then levering it overhead 'blind' can help you 'fish' for a couple of money shots that have proved popular.

4) Pulling focus on objects coming towards you on a long tele is tricky at the best of times. I tried doing catwalk stuff on a manual lens, but the kit lens was better than I. Probably one of the very few situations this would be true, but hey. Just reporting what happened.

5) Actually, no. I'm struggling now. The manual focus is so rubbish that it's an absolute liability. The whole lens is a liability in 90% of situations. The situation in 4) would be better served with the fancy new LEA2 focusy thingy as witnessed in many recent 'pull focus during 240fps slomo' tests. And with the arrival of my Metabones adaptor, I'll happily be using the Canon 17-55 2.8 IS for handheld Run & Gun work.

But I will say that the SEL18200 has had its uses, got shots I wouldn't have got otherwise, and deserves a little corner in my kitbag. YMMV.

* The stuff I do, for various reasons (legal, safety, time), means I can't always interact with the subjects or ask them to do something again - what happens, happens. If you're venturing out where ideally you'd have had an EX1 or similar (18x Fujinon on ENG?!), the SEL18200 has saved bacon here. Not perfect, but not left without a shot either.

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

" And with the arrival of my Metabones adaptor, I'll happily be using the Canon 17-55 2.8 IS for handheld Run & Gun work."
Does the Metabones have auto focus?


* The stuff I do, for various reasons (legal, safety, time), means I can't always interact with the subjects or ask them to do something again - what happens, happens. If you're venturing out where ideally you'd have had an EX1 or similar (18x Fujinon on ENG?!), the SEL18200 has saved bacon here. Not perfect, but not left without a shot either.[/QUOTE]

Agreed, for fun and gun work you need auto focus.

Dan

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

Alas not, but then it's compact and its main job is iris and IS.

With that in mind, I almost sprayed coffee all over my Mac last night when I clocked what this chap was using: (at 03:24)


Birger bites back. Bleedin' typical. Just get my Metabones after holding off for 'the perfect EOS adaptor' - which may well have been the Birger, and suddenly a working mount pops up in a (very nice btw) test video. On an FS700, no less. Cold Fusion and Unicorn steaks in one sitting. However, I'm not sure if the Birger was going to do AF, though it was going to do programmable focus pulls.

I think, if AF is your bag (and this is a growing bag, I'll admit), the LA-EA2 and appropriate lenses are probably the better approach.

...

Oooh, and another Plus thing for the SEL18200, whilst we're allowing as-yet non-existent cameras to alter opinions: IIRC, the FS700 will have tap-to-focus on the touch screen.

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

nice slow-mo

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

Come on Doug, It aint THAT bad.

Most of your points are absolutely valid, but it comes down to what one expects.

First I just bought the body, looked down at the kit lens and thought: bah, I have a whole case of the finest primes, what do I need that kit lens for?

Well, after my first run&gub job - I ordered one.

It is (was back than) the only glass that talked to the camera (and in the same dialect).
The 2 stage stabilization works great and I even find the autofocus (and I´m usually a manual evangelist) working surprisingly good, once it is locked in.
It works even better with the new firmware and on the FS700, you can even do face tracking, which worked great on a steadycam test I did with the 700.

It´s a bit slow, but that doesn´t really matter on this camera and you don't want a 1 inch DOF in run&gun situations anyway.

The manual focus sucks, but I break out that lens, when I want/need to use autofocus or push focus.
The extending tube is a joke, but than I use a lightweight sunshade instead of my usual mattebox.
The non constant aperture and the lousy zoom ring don´t count for me, cause I don't zoom while shooting.

So for me, the lens works just fine in the situations and shooting style I bought it for.
For the range and price, it delivers surprisingly good and sharp images.

But if you want to zoom, internal focus, constant aperture, need a real mattebox - this glass is not for you.
But you will be hard pressed to find a lens with all that features, plus excellent 2 stage stabilization and autofocus in that price range - if you find any at all.

Frank

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

What can I say, I guess I just have higher expectations than you.
My advice still stands: Do not buy this lens. Save your money and apply it towards something better. It's like putting a cheap set of tires on a race car.

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

I think another thing to think about here is budget and the types of shoots
you do. I do a LOT of interview based stuff. Corporate promos,
where the shallow depth of field, makes the subject 'pop' and just look
high end. Also some commercials, where the FS100 'look' is what is needed.
So for those, I wanted something like the FS100. However, on many of my
corporate shoots, I will get like an hour inside their facility to get
video of 12 different locations. And I shoot a lot of other run and gun
things as well, some events, freelance news, training videos and so on.
Ideally, I think an EX-1 and a FS100 would be perfect. Unfortunately,
that isn't in the cards for my business, just don't have the budget for
it. So, I bought the FS 100 with the kit lens, and some cheap FD lenses
off ebay....a 50mm F1.4, a 28mm F2.5 and a 28-90 F2.8 zoom. All three
lenses together cost less than $150, but optically are very good.
Now, I will use the FD lenses when I have time to set up interviews
or want something with that look, and use the kit lens to turn the
FS100 into sort of an EX-1. And even with the slow kit lens, I get
more shallow depth of field than I could with the EX-1. If you've
only got the budget for one camera, and need it to be a 'swiss army
knife' I think the kit lens could have some value for you (of course
you must also realize that the can opener on a swiss army knife isn't
as good as a proper one, but if you've only got the budget for one tool,
it is what it is.) I think the kit lens actually looks very good as far
as the image quality goes. BUT what Doug says is true, there are some
serious drawbacks to the kit lens. They don't bother me at all, I don't
mind shooting with the kit lens. I can get a wide, medium and close up
in a corporate location in about 10 seconds, shooting with a prime or still
zoom with limited range would never work with the time constraints I have
on some of my shoots. What I do, is I have a Heliopan variable ND, which has
stops marked on it, and when I zoom the kit lens in and lose a stop of light,
I just open up the Heliopan and let another stop in on the front end, easy as
can be. So for me, I the kit lens doesn't bother me, but for other people
it presents what could be very serious annoyances.....so, really if you have
a chance, the best thing would be to try it out before buying because
only you can make the decision of what will work for you.

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

Gabe, that's good advice. Try before you buy.

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

Just got the FS100 and I've used it a bit with the 18-55 from my Nex7, its ok, but not great. I decided to skip the 18-200 and get the A mount 16-50 and LAEA1 adapter instead, should be here tomorrow. A constant f2.8 lens that's parfocal is a better option for me than a slow zoom. OS isn't a big priority for me and when shooting handheld I use the $35 cowboy studio shoulder mount or a monopod - both work wonders for stabilizing fast run-and-gun shooting. And the AF is nowhere near what it is on a still camera, with the brilliant peaking I can nail focus faster than the AF can. The 50/1.8 focuses faster on the FS 100, but you're limited to one FL. I have a set of Rokkors that I adapt as well, but I only use my 25, 35, 50 and 58 handheld, anything longer and I can't keep it from looking like Blair Witch crap.

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

The e-mount 50mm f1.8 is a good one too, the IS is very good for handheld shoot.

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

Doug,

be nice.

Frank,

What lens hood do you use on the 18-200?

Dan

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

Dan, I didn't mean that as an insult. I am totally serious. Different people have different expectations of what they expect from the equipment they use. I'm sure someone else may not think that the lenses I use meet their expectations for performance if they are used to using Master Primes or something in that league. When it comes to cameras, lenses, etc. they are all like rungs on a ladder. For some people a lower rung is all they need and it gets the job done for them. That's fine. All I'm saying is that the 18-200 stock lens is several rungs down on the ladder from every professional lens I've used in my 30-year career, and I'm not going down that low just to save a few bucks. The supposed benefits of the lens that Frank touts mean absolutely nothing to me, and the disadvantages of the lens are deal breakers.

Good lenses are expensive for a reason, and you won't be sorry for investing in quality glass that will serve you well throughout your career --- with all of your future cameras and not just the FS100 or FS700. Unless someone is expecting to retire soon, I think is it wise to invest in the best lenses that you can afford. You'll do better work, you'll enjoy working with it more, you'll have better resale value, and all of that increases the bottom line financially that more than justifies the cost for a professional. Of course, if someone is just a hobbyist, then it doesn't really matter what they do. My comments are intended for the serious professional who expects to make a six figure income and have a reputation for doing great work. If you aim low, you'll hit low.

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

Doug,

Points well taken. It's not that I don't disagree with you on the kit lens but for the work I do (wedding run-n-gun), There is not another E mount lens that can auto focus with an stabilizer and cover the distance out there. I just don't think in a run-n-gun situation you can keep it steady and in focus in that situation. As I said earlier, I would love to have $5000.00 and up lens but for wedding work it is hard financially to justify that expense. All i am saying is it is a tool and for what it is designed for it works. Maybe not perfect by any means but it works. Also maybe because I have not use those lens you use, I don't know what i am missing.

Dan

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

It´s one of those rubber shades, that fold back in 3 steps, so it adjusts to FOV without vignetting.
I have it always on my vari ND and also use it as a donut for my real mattebox.
Extremely versatile and only a few bucks.

@Doug - I agree wit 90% you said, but for the last 10% that lens is pretty useful in certain situations.
It´s not a matter of money you want to pay, but there is no other lens (that I´m aware of) out there that has a stabilizer in that class plus auto focus. All the adapters for other lenses only work to some degree.
I look at it as a specialty lens, you don´t need it often, but in some situations it saves the bacon.

Frank

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

Yeah - I've also used this type of hood ever since I purchased the Redrock matte box for using with my EX1; it was at that time meant as a temporary "adapter" for the EX1 (a real thing was never actually released by RR)...

But Frank is right that it's very versatile; I use it with all my Canon FD glass - it's the only way to have the Heliopan vari ND and a sunshade, as the Heliopan doesn't have an external thread. The rubber thingy having double thread, it holds my Heliopan permanently and only is moved between the lens (or rather their step up rings) as I change them on my FS100. Recommended!

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

Piotr,Frank.

Do you have a link by any chance? Thanks

Dan

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

Dan, you can buy them everywhere - one of the places is the same eBay seller I bought my FD->NEX adapters from:

Lens Hood 77mm 3 Stages Collapse Rubber 3 in 1 | eBay

Very cheap, but functional (order several!)

Piotr

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

Piotr,

Thank you, now I understand.

Dan

Re: Kit lens 18-55 equal good/bad to 18-200 lens?
 

Hi Dan..thanks for sharing...what frame rate did you use?