TRV950 : Progressive Shutter System? at DVinfo.net

Yik Kuen · February 7th, 2003, 07:14 PM

Came across some websites stating that 950 utilises Progressive Shutter System, is this true?

Is this equiv. to Progressive Mode? If I'm not mistaken, this cam does not shoot in Progressive Mode (for stills).

Margus Kivilaan · February 10th, 2003, 07:48 AM

don't know about 950, think it's similar to pdx10 in behavior.
tried this thing out with pdx10. if you switch your camera to photo mode and record to external recorder, it gives output signal, which is progressively scanned, but output is usual interlaced signal. you will only need ext. recording device for that.

regards, Margus

Kenn Jolemore · February 10th, 2003, 05:46 PM

In other words you can record directly to your hard drive with the TRV950 and PDX10 if there is a reason you want to do such a thing.
Unlike earlier posters contention that the signal they received was progressive and full megapixel the reality is that you get what you would get normally going through the chip in the cam, no really big suprise there if you think about it for a few minutes.

Yik Kuen · February 10th, 2003, 09:43 PM

Hi guys,

Thank you for your response, but my question was, is the Progressive Shutter system spelled out in the product brochure referring to Progressive Scan?

If that's the case, then we'll have the right to request for a firmware patch to enable it, just like the PDX-10 !!

Margus Kivilaan · February 11th, 2003, 03:04 AM

Hi Yik,
i tried to find out what does this 'progressive shutter' mean. Did'nt find any notice of it in PDX10P manual nor in menus. Google did'nt help either. Can be that it does'nt have connection to progressive scan.
Kenn, that is'nt so straight. PDX10P uses whole chip area when recording in photo mode. That can be seen when switching from camera mode to photo mode, angle of view increases. And it scannes frames progressively, that gives a bit more film-like look. Output signal is standard definition and interlaced.

regards, Margus

Yik Kuen · February 11th, 2003, 03:35 AM

Hi Margus,

I downloaded 950 product brochure (PDF) from official Sony website, and indeed this feature is said to be there. I'm just puzzled, there's no mention of the word 'progressive' in the user manual.

I'm also looking for PDX-10/P user manual just to compare the differences of manual controls on both the cams. Do you know where to find it?

Thank you.

Kenn Jolemore · February 11th, 2003, 06:08 AM

http://www.techshop.net/PDX-10/ For a link to the PDF Manuel for the X10.
As far as I could find there is no mention of Progressive Shutter in the Manuel and I can assure you it does not have Progressive Mode.
Your editing program has a way of determining what the capture size and rate are as do the chips in the cam.

Yik Kuen · February 12th, 2003, 08:10 PM

Hi Kenn,

Thank you for your reply, but I'm looking for the user guide for PDX-10 (user manual that comes together with the cam) in softcopy form (PDF) not product information. Do you have any idea?

Kenn Jolemore · February 12th, 2003, 10:18 PM

http://sonyusadvcam.com/ http://www.sony.ca/dvcam/manuals.htm
http://servicesales.sel.sony.com/service/packages/products/so004/22jan/Manual/loadManual.html

Try these sites as I believe they have recently posted the manuel also Henrys might have a copy on there site at

http://www.henrys.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/PageDisplay?storeId=10001&dest=dynframeset.jsp&url=http%3A//www.henrys.com/manuals/

Julian Luttrell · February 15th, 2003, 04:31 PM

Kenn,

I have to disagree with what you say.

PAL PDX10 _does_ provide progressive scan DV out of its 1394 port when set to memory mode.

I use it frequently, and I can assure you it _is_ progressive at 25fps.

Of course, you cannot record this to the camera's tape.

Julian

Kenn Jolemore · February 15th, 2003, 05:51 PM

Thats pretty amazing that the chips can do other than that which they were programed to do, but I am not willing to get into a long drawn out discussion (read argument) over it .
I ran footage to the hard drive of my computer and caputred through Premiere. How Did you go about obtaining your results if I may ask?Maybe I am missing something.
If you are getting progressive from your cam I am of course glad for you.It's a very good piece of equiptment either way.

Zac Stein · February 15th, 2003, 06:13 PM

What we need to do is find an elite hacker on this forum who can change the firmware on the sony range and allow them to shoot progressive scan onto tape. If the camera can do it one day i am sure it shouldn't have a problem doing it other ways as well.

Zac

Julian Luttrell · February 16th, 2003, 04:01 AM

Simple.

1 Take your PDX10.
2 Set to camera mode.
3 Point at a high contrast vertical line and wave the camera from side to side (you are trying to get large amounts of horizontal motion that will show up in interlaced video, see?)
4 Capture to Premiere from 1394 port for a few seconds.
5 Name the clip "camera mode"

6 Now set to memory mode.
7 Repeat the same capture to Premiere
8 Name the clip "memory mode"

9 Now leave Premiere (Premiere tries to hide interlacing from you).
10 Start up any compositing package, like After Effects, Commotion, Digital Fusion etc.
11 Load the two clips into that.
12 View both clips.

13 Observe that "camera mode" has horizontal comb-tooth artifacts showing that each frame is made of two fields in each of which the image is offset from its position in the other.
14 Observe, to your evident amazement, that these artifacts are absent from "memory mode".

15 Make conclusion regarding interlaced v progressive.

QED.

Kenn Jolemore · February 16th, 2003, 11:23 AM

I would love to hear of an objective way to check the actual output from this set-up
.Anyone?

Margus Kivilaan · February 17th, 2003, 04:04 AM

hi,
i was out of internet range for some time.
Kenn, i made a short test-out today. Connected pdx10p to purple editor and captured some shots with quick panning in camera mode and then in photo mode. then exported from both shots one frame from the middle of pan. export mode was full frame, interlaced. pictures are
www.hot.ee/kiwik/camlaced0000.tif and
www.hot.ee/kiwik/photolaced0000.tif
You can clearly see interlacing artefacts (black horizontal lines) on first picture, but they are missing on second.
Tried to convert them to jpeg, but then these artefacts are'nt so visible.
If you have problems with openig these pictures, i can send them to your e-mail address.
regards, Margus

February 7th, 2003, 07:14 PM	#1
Yik Kuen Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Johor Bahru, Malaysia Posts: 135	TRV950 : Progressive Shutter System? Came across some websites stating that 950 utilises Progressive Shutter System, is this true? Is this equiv. to Progressive Mode? If I'm not mistaken, this cam does not shoot in Progressive Mode (for stills).

February 10th, 2003, 05:46 PM	#3
Kenn Jolemore Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: norfolk Va. Posts: 124	In other words you can record directly to your hard drive with the TRV950 and PDX10 if there is a reason you want to do such a thing. Unlike earlier posters contention that the signal they received was progressive and full megapixel the reality is that you get what you would get normally going through the chip in the cam, no really big suprise there if you think about it for a few minutes. __________________ KennJ

February 11th, 2003, 06:08 AM	#7
Kenn Jolemore Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: norfolk Va. Posts: 124	http://www.techshop.net/PDX-10/ For a link to the PDF Manuel for the X10. As far as I could find there is no mention of Progressive Shutter in the Manuel and I can assure you it does not have Progressive Mode. Your editing program has a way of determining what the capture size and rate are as do the chips in the cam. __________________ KennJ

February 12th, 2003, 10:18 PM	#9
Kenn Jolemore Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: norfolk Va. Posts: 124	http://sonyusadvcam.com/ http://www.sony.ca/dvcam/manuals.htm http://servicesales.sel.sony.com/service/packages/products/so004/22jan/Manual/loadManual.html Try these sites as I believe they have recently posted the manuel also Henrys might have a copy on there site at http://www.henrys.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/PageDisplay?storeId=10001&dest=dynframeset.jsp&url=http%3A//www.henrys.com/manuals/ __________________ KennJ

February 15th, 2003, 04:31 PM	#10
Julian Luttrell Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 164	PDX10 progressive Kenn, I have to disagree with what you say. PAL PDX10 _does_ provide progressive scan DV out of its 1394 port when set to memory mode. I use it frequently, and I can assure you it _is_ progressive at 25fps. Of course, you cannot record this to the camera's tape. Julian

February 10th, 2003, 07:48 AM	#2
Margus Kivilaan Regular Crew Join Date: May 2002 Location: Tallinn, Estonia Posts: 123	don't know about 950, think it's similar to pdx10 in behavior. tried this thing out with pdx10. if you switch your camera to photo mode and record to external recorder, it gives output signal, which is progressively scanned, but output is usual interlaced signal. you will only need ext. recording device for that. regards, Margus

February 10th, 2003, 09:43 PM	#4
Yik Kuen Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Johor Bahru, Malaysia Posts: 135	Hi guys, Thank you for your response, but my question was, is the Progressive Shutter system spelled out in the product brochure referring to Progressive Scan? If that's the case, then we'll have the right to request for a firmware patch to enable it, just like the PDX-10 !!

February 11th, 2003, 03:04 AM	#5
Margus Kivilaan Regular Crew Join Date: May 2002 Location: Tallinn, Estonia Posts: 123	Hi Yik, i tried to find out what does this 'progressive shutter' mean. Did'nt find any notice of it in PDX10P manual nor in menus. Google did'nt help either. Can be that it does'nt have connection to progressive scan. Kenn, that is'nt so straight. PDX10P uses whole chip area when recording in photo mode. That can be seen when switching from camera mode to photo mode, angle of view increases. And it scannes frames progressively, that gives a bit more film-like look. Output signal is standard definition and interlaced. regards, Margus

February 11th, 2003, 03:35 AM	#6
Yik Kuen Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Johor Bahru, Malaysia Posts: 135	Hi Margus, I downloaded 950 product brochure (PDF) from official Sony website, and indeed this feature is said to be there. I'm just puzzled, there's no mention of the word 'progressive' in the user manual. I'm also looking for PDX-10/P user manual just to compare the differences of manual controls on both the cams. Do you know where to find it? Thank you.

February 12th, 2003, 08:10 PM	#8
Yik Kuen Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Johor Bahru, Malaysia Posts: 135	Hi Kenn, Thank you for your reply, but I'm looking for the user guide for PDX-10 (user manual that comes together with the cam) in softcopy form (PDF) not product information. Do you have any idea?

February 15th, 2003, 05:51 PM	#11
Kenn Jolemore Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: norfolk Va. Posts: 124	Thats pretty amazing that the chips can do other than that which they were programed to do, but I am not willing to get into a long drawn out discussion (read argument) over it . I ran footage to the hard drive of my computer and caputred through Premiere. How Did you go about obtaining your results if I may ask?Maybe I am missing something. If you are getting progressive from your cam I am of course glad for you.It's a very good piece of equiptment either way. __________________ KennJ

February 15th, 2003, 06:13 PM	#12
Zac Stein Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 730	What we need to do is find an elite hacker on this forum who can change the firmware on the sony range and allow them to shoot progressive scan onto tape. If the camera can do it one day i am sure it shouldn't have a problem doing it other ways as well. Zac

February 16th, 2003, 04:01 AM	#13
Julian Luttrell Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 164	PDX10 and progressive Simple. 1 Take your PDX10. 2 Set to camera mode. 3 Point at a high contrast vertical line and wave the camera from side to side (you are trying to get large amounts of horizontal motion that will show up in interlaced video, see?) 4 Capture to Premiere from 1394 port for a few seconds. 5 Name the clip "camera mode" 6 Now set to memory mode. 7 Repeat the same capture to Premiere 8 Name the clip "memory mode" 9 Now leave Premiere (Premiere tries to hide interlacing from you). 10 Start up any compositing package, like After Effects, Commotion, Digital Fusion etc. 11 Load the two clips into that. 12 View both clips. 13 Observe that "camera mode" has horizontal comb-tooth artifacts showing that each frame is made of two fields in each of which the image is offset from its position in the other. 14 Observe, to your evident amazement, that these artifacts are absent from "memory mode". 15 Make conclusion regarding interlaced v progressive. QED.

February 16th, 2003, 11:23 AM	#14
Kenn Jolemore Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: norfolk Va. Posts: 124	I would love to hear of an objective way to check the actual output from this set-up .Anyone? __________________ KennJ

February 17th, 2003, 04:04 AM	#15
Margus Kivilaan Regular Crew Join Date: May 2002 Location: Tallinn, Estonia Posts: 123	hi, i was out of internet range for some time. Kenn, i made a short test-out today. Connected pdx10p to purple editor and captured some shots with quick panning in camera mode and then in photo mode. then exported from both shots one frame from the middle of pan. export mode was full frame, interlaced. pictures are www.hot.ee/kiwik/camlaced0000.tif and www.hot.ee/kiwik/photolaced0000.tif You can clearly see interlacing artefacts (black horizontal lines) on first picture, but they are missing on second. Tried to convert them to jpeg, but then these artefacts are'nt so visible. If you have problems with openig these pictures, i can send them to your e-mail address. regards, Margus