VX-2000 Design Problems at DVinfo.net

Kevin Nardelle · May 29th, 2003, 01:16 PM

Has anyone noticed that the VX2K has a serious design flaw at night with sharp points of light? When i shoot at night I get ghost images or flares from the optical stabalizer or the optics that are used in it. They wiggle around the screen. It is best seen when shooting on coming traffic - I have been shooting Motorcycles stunting at night. I get this with any sharp pinpoint light source in the field of view. When I turn off the stabalizer the flareas are still there just stationary. I suspect that this is poor quality glass or poor coatings on the glass. Is there any fix other then turning off the stabalizer? I really need it being that I shoot from moving vehicles and require hand held. I shoot from tight spots from time to time and can't afford the steady cam. I am wondering if this has been seen in the PD-150, if not I am buying one.

Tom Hardwick · May 29th, 2003, 01:24 PM

The VX2k and the PD150 are *exactly* the same optically. They have the same lens, the same OIS, the same chips and the same resolution, so don't go changing your camera.

It's hard to understand your problem but if it's flare you're seeing then yes, the VAP OIS is adding two plane parallel surfaces to the optical lineup, and that means 4 more surfaces for light to reflect off. But in most respects the OIS is pretty darn transparent and can safely be left on at all times.

tom.

Frank Granovski · May 29th, 2003, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Has anyone noticed that the VX2K has a serious design flaw at night with sharp points of light? When i shoot at night I get ghost images or flares from the optical stabalizer or the optics that are used in it...on coming traffic...

Since you are shooting in poor lighting, and light from oncoming traffic is beaming right at the cam, I would bet you a buck that no cam is immune to this flaw. It's not a flaw. That's the way it is.

Kevin Nardelle · May 29th, 2003, 01:31 PM

I have not seen this before.. The Digital8 Sony does not have this problem and neither does my TRV25. I will get a few clips together and post them so you can see what I am talking about.

Wayne Orr · May 29th, 2003, 02:04 PM

Do you have a filter on your VX2K? If so, take it off and try again.

Kevin Nardelle · May 29th, 2003, 02:12 PM

I have tried all that.. I am just going to have to get a few clips posted to show everyone what I am talking about. It really ticks me off when i get a nice stunt and come back to see that mess on my video.

Kevin Nardelle · May 29th, 2003, 02:33 PM

Ok, you can get the video clips <a href="http://www.realnola.com/outtakes.wmv">HERE</a> and if that post does not allow HTML then go to this URL.

http://www.realnola.com/outtakes.wmv

I know they are poorly shot but they are a good example of the problem I have with this camera. I do not get this problem at all during the day or in decent lighting conditions. I do see it at dusk though with pinpoint light sources, specially ones that are moving.

Kevin Nardelle · May 29th, 2003, 02:41 PM

Here is a nice example of a hand held shot during day light conditions. There is nothing that can be seen here, only night time footage brings out this problem.

This is a snip out of a project I am working on.

http://www.realnola.com/bayou1clip.wmv

Sorry but it is quick and easy to encode this into a windows media format, you mac guys can still read it I am sure..

Kevin Nardelle

Jeff Donald · May 29th, 2003, 04:52 PM

Hi Genlight,

The artifact you are encountering is known as the firefly effect (at least on this forum). It has been discussed here on several occasions and this is the definative thread on it. If you use the search function (firefly) you'll see several more posts on the subject but nothing really new to add to the discussion.

On another matter, real names are used on DV Info. Please email me and I'll see the your user name is changed. Thanks for you cooperation.

Boyd Ostroff · May 29th, 2003, 05:33 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Genlight : I am wondering if this has been seen in the PD-150, if not I am buying one. -->>>

Chris Hurd posted this in another forum recently. If true then it probably wouldn't help to switch to another Sony or a Canon.

"Super Steady Shot has been Sony's brand for OIS for years. Basically they're licensing Canon's OIS technology."

Dennis Hull · May 29th, 2003, 07:34 PM

As Jeff points out, there are several threads on similar looks and one starts March 21, 2003 with my "Moths of March" (my description at time of "firefly" effect). Most of that thread thought my situation was associated with Super Steady Shot of VX2000 and many good comments on that. However, this thread says stabilization was turned off and still got "fireflys" so comment that "fireflys" are normal in the lighting conditions seems most appropriate (low light performance still impressive).

Kevin Nardelle · May 29th, 2003, 08:09 PM

The fireflys are directly caused by the ISO because when I turn off the IS the fireflys dont jump around anymore, they just remain still. If you watch on a monitor while switching back and fourth between IS on and off WITH a moving light source, you can see for certain the problem I am talking about.

I did read the posts, interesting. I see there are some doubters out there that think this is something else, these folks need to do further observation and testing under different conditions. All one needs to do is shoot a moving vehicle at night with IS on then turn it off. The results are amazing. Thanks to everyone for the replies, i appreciate the pointers to the former posts.

May 29th, 2003, 01:16 PM	#1
Kevin Nardelle Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: New Orleans - Metairie Posts: 87	VX-2000 Design Problems Has anyone noticed that the VX2K has a serious design flaw at night with sharp points of light? When i shoot at night I get ghost images or flares from the optical stabalizer or the optics that are used in it. They wiggle around the screen. It is best seen when shooting on coming traffic - I have been shooting Motorcycles stunting at night. I get this with any sharp pinpoint light source in the field of view. When I turn off the stabalizer the flareas are still there just stationary. I suspect that this is poor quality glass or poor coatings on the glass. Is there any fix other then turning off the stabalizer? I really need it being that I shoot from moving vehicles and require hand held. I shoot from tight spots from time to time and can't afford the steady cam. I am wondering if this has been seen in the PD-150, if not I am buying one. __________________ Regards, Kevin --

May 29th, 2003, 01:31 PM	#4
Kevin Nardelle Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: New Orleans - Metairie Posts: 87	No no no I have not seen this before.. The Digital8 Sony does not have this problem and neither does my TRV25. I will get a few clips together and post them so you can see what I am talking about. __________________ Regards, Kevin --

May 29th, 2003, 02:04 PM	#5
Wayne Orr Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Northridge Ca Posts: 734	Do you have a filter on your VX2K? If so, take it off and try again. __________________ Wayne If it was easy, they'd get a relative to do it.

May 29th, 2003, 02:12 PM	#6
Kevin Nardelle Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: New Orleans - Metairie Posts: 87	Filter... I have tried all that.. I am just going to have to get a few clips posted to show everyone what I am talking about. It really ticks me off when i get a nice stunt and come back to see that mess on my video. __________________ Regards, Kevin --

May 29th, 2003, 02:33 PM	#7
Kevin Nardelle Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: New Orleans - Metairie Posts: 87	Video Clips Ok, you can get the video clips <a href="http://www.realnola.com/outtakes.wmv">HERE</a> and if that post does not allow HTML then go to this URL. http://www.realnola.com/outtakes.wmv I know they are poorly shot but they are a good example of the problem I have with this camera. I do not get this problem at all during the day or in decent lighting conditions. I do see it at dusk though with pinpoint light sources, specially ones that are moving. __________________ Regards, Kevin --

May 29th, 2003, 01:24 PM	#2
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	The VX2k and the PD150 are exactly the same optically. They have the same lens, the same OIS, the same chips and the same resolution, so don't go changing your camera. It's hard to understand your problem but if it's flare you're seeing then yes, the VAP OIS is adding two plane parallel surfaces to the optical lineup, and that means 4 more surfaces for light to reflect off. But in most respects the OIS is pretty darn transparent and can safely be left on at all times. tom.

May 29th, 2003, 02:41 PM	#8
Kevin Nardelle Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: New Orleans - Metairie Posts: 87	More video examples Here is a nice example of a hand held shot during day light conditions. There is nothing that can be seen here, only night time footage brings out this problem. This is a snip out of a project I am working on. http://www.realnola.com/bayou1clip.wmv Sorry but it is quick and easy to encode this into a windows media format, you mac guys can still read it I am sure.. Kevin Nardelle __________________ Regards, Kevin --

May 29th, 2003, 04:52 PM	#9
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	Hi Genlight, The artifact you are encountering is known as the firefly effect (at least on this forum). It has been discussed here on several occasions and this is the definative thread on it. If you use the search function (firefly) you'll see several more posts on the subject but nothing really new to add to the discussion. On another matter, real names are used on DV Info. Please email me and I'll see the your user name is changed. Thanks for you cooperation. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

May 29th, 2003, 05:33 PM	#10
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,787	Re: VX-2000 Design Problems <<<-- Originally posted by Genlight : I am wondering if this has been seen in the PD-150, if not I am buying one. -->>> Chris Hurd posted this in another forum recently. If true then it probably wouldn't help to switch to another Sony or a Canon. "Super Steady Shot has been Sony's brand for OIS for years. Basically they're licensing Canon's OIS technology."

May 29th, 2003, 07:34 PM	#11
Dennis Hull Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: St. Paul, MN USA Posts: 151	Moths of March As Jeff points out, there are several threads on similar looks and one starts March 21, 2003 with my "Moths of March" (my description at time of "firefly" effect). Most of that thread thought my situation was associated with Super Steady Shot of VX2000 and many good comments on that. However, this thread says stabilization was turned off and still got "fireflys" so comment that "fireflys" are normal in the lighting conditions seems most appropriate (low light performance still impressive).

May 29th, 2003, 08:09 PM	#12
Kevin Nardelle Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: New Orleans - Metairie Posts: 87	No The fireflys are directly caused by the ISO because when I turn off the IS the fireflys dont jump around anymore, they just remain still. If you watch on a monitor while switching back and fourth between IS on and off WITH a moving light source, you can see for certain the problem I am talking about. I did read the posts, interesting. I see there are some doubters out there that think this is something else, these folks need to do further observation and testing under different conditions. All one needs to do is shoot a moving vehicle at night with IS on then turn it off. The results are amazing. Thanks to everyone for the replies, i appreciate the pointers to the former posts. __________________ Regards, Kevin --