24p cam from sony at DVinfo.net

Mike Zorger · August 4th, 2003, 06:22 AM

Does anyone know any info on a 24p camera coming out from sony?

Mike Rehmus · August 4th, 2003, 10:53 AM

Welcome Mike

I'd guess you are making reference NOT to one of the Sony CineAlta cameras at $100,000 plus, right?

I wonder if Sony will get into that area.

Although I understand the hype, the number of mainstream users who will use 24p has to be small. How many PD150 users are realistically going to go to film? Not very many I'd guess. Most of us who use the camera would far rather have Sony work the camera over for faster handling, even lower light level capability, etc.

I certainly won't use it in my work. Most customers don't understand the difference and couldn't recognize it if they were hit between the running lights with 24p.

Even among the users of the Panasonic camera, or at least one notable group of them, shooting the freature, "American Yearbook,", used the camera at 30p, not 24p. You will be reading a lot about American Yearbook in the coming months. A short article about them just appeared in Millimeter and all the big video mags have at least a short article in the works.

American Yearbook is the first feature-length work to be shot with the Panasonic and was shot here in Solano County . . . Vallejo, Benicia, Fairfield and Vacaville.

Glenn Gipson · August 5th, 2003, 09:41 AM

Well, I happen to be one of those people whom thinks that 24p is more then just “hype.” I can’t speak for every digital filmmaker, but I’m one of the few DV moviemakers whom puts so much quality into his work, that I like to have the OPTION of going theatrical, even if I don’t land a theatrical deal. With 30p, you don’t have that option, you’re locked into the NTSC DVD market, and that’s that.

Mike Rehmus · August 5th, 2003, 10:12 AM

30 fps does not lock you into the NTSC DVD market. There are a lot of examples that point out that your statement is just not true. Blair Witch, Gengis Blues, Blood, Guts and High Octane, American Yearbook, and a lot of other transfers to film are examples of 30 fps video origination.

My point is that there are relatively few 24p productions out there compared to the 30p market that Sony may very well decide the 24p market size is not sufficient to warrant the design investment in mid-range cameras. They are in business to sell as many cameras as they can for the least engineering and production costs. And they lead the pack in the CineAlta cameras at the serious (high-priced) end of the camera market.

Your aspirations are great and I applaud them. But in the great scheme of camera sales, 24p requirements are but a fraction of the marketplace. I think Panasonic and JVC do these very nice but not mainstream products because they are niche products where Sony chooses not to compete.

Can I be wrong? Absolutely. 24P is a great thing to hype. For that reason alone, it is compelling. It gives a company bragging rights. Which is what Panasonic is taking advantage of now. It may very well be true that their 24p camera is a loss-leader and they produced it to get some much-needed publicity for their entire line of cameras. Who really knows but them?

I do not believe 24p would bring financial success at the level Sony requires for a major camera feature.

From a purely selfish point of view, I don't want to pay for 24p either by having my pro cameras go up in price, losing another feature I'd rather have to make my work better, or reducing the quality of the camera to pay for the 24p.

Glenn Gipson · August 5th, 2003, 10:50 AM

>>Blair Witch, Gengis Blues, Blood, Guts and High Octane<<

These were not 30p projects, they were 60i projects. There has not been one 30p project released on 35mm to date. While it can be done, most transfer houses highly advise against shooting on 30p. What they do recommend, and what most people confuse 30p with, is 60i.

Clayton Farr · August 5th, 2003, 11:50 AM

Mike, thanks for the link to the article, but it looks as though they may have been remiss about not shooting in 24p. ('...didn't take full advantage of camera's abilities.')

It appears they shot in 30p both because they were anticipating an exclusively NTSC 'release' and due to their lack of familiarity with their newly received DVX100.

Especially now that common NLE tools are catching up with working with 24p material (and some doing it rather seamlessly) I would definitely advocate for working this way if your are trying to both approximate a filmic look as well as have the most universal master available. From 24fps you can then choose to go to film, NTSC, PAL, 24p DVD, and the like.

My 2 cents,
Clayton

Glenn Gipson · August 5th, 2003, 12:05 PM

Yes, that's another issue, if you shoot 30p, you may run into problems when going into a PAL market. Everyone has to remember, 30p, is NOT 60i.

Mike Rehmus · August 5th, 2003, 03:23 PM

You are right about the i vs p mistake I made. I should have said 30 frames per second, interlaced or 60i with 60i being more concise. Wow, a lot of people pay attention!

I"ve deleted the inaccurate info of my original post regarding the frame rate in which American Yearbook was taped and other info you can infer from my apology below

Mike Rehmus · August 8th, 2003, 04:29 PM

Brian Ging emailed me to set me straight about in what mode they shot American Yearbook.

They shot in 24P "standard" mode, not 30 as I read in Millimeter (who has the facts wrong).

I may have inadvertently portayed Brian and his crew as disorganized and sloppy. That was not the intent nor the truth.

They were harried because of a first day (night) late start and an early closing time for the shooting location.

Brian pulled off a significant accomplishment with this film and it's not yet edited. After devoting more than 2 years of his life to the writing, planning and shooting of the work, he and the crew are to be commended.

Any pain I caused Brian or anyone in his crew is deeply regretted.

Max Allen · April 2nd, 2004, 01:07 AM

I've shot over 40 commercials in 24p. Practically every series on every major network is 24p these days. The 24p market is anything but small.

Also, the independent film market is big for manufacturers. There is a reason why the XL1 revolutionized the industry, it wasn't wedding videos.

Everyone followed that trend and continues to. Sony not making a lower cost 24p camera has nothing to do with the size of the 24p market. It has to do with a strategy to keep each camera in their product line sellable. Although they will be forced to change this strategy in the future.

You can already see a sign in the upcoming XDcam with 24p capability, the only Sony camera aside from the 900 that's 24p capable. 24p when done right creates stunning results.

Mike Rehmus · April 2nd, 2004, 01:41 AM

Max, this is a good one to let lie. Raise a new thread if you want to talk about 24 p and put it in the Open DV discussion where it will be more available to everyone since it is not a Sony-only issue.

August 4th, 2003, 06:22 AM	#1
Mike Zorger Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Norther VA Posts: 163	24p cam from sony Does anyone know any info on a 24p camera coming out from sony?

August 4th, 2003, 10:53 AM	#2
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	Welcome Mike I'd guess you are making reference NOT to one of the Sony CineAlta cameras at $100,000 plus, right? I wonder if Sony will get into that area. Although I understand the hype, the number of mainstream users who will use 24p has to be small. How many PD150 users are realistically going to go to film? Not very many I'd guess. Most of us who use the camera would far rather have Sony work the camera over for faster handling, even lower light level capability, etc. I certainly won't use it in my work. Most customers don't understand the difference and couldn't recognize it if they were hit between the running lights with 24p. Even among the users of the Panasonic camera, or at least one notable group of them, shooting the freature, "American Yearbook,", used the camera at 30p, not 24p. You will be reading a lot about American Yearbook in the coming months. A short article about them just appeared in Millimeter and all the big video mags have at least a short article in the works. American Yearbook is the first feature-length work to be shot with the Panasonic and was shot here in Solano County . . . Vallejo, Benicia, Fairfield and Vacaville. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

August 5th, 2003, 10:12 AM	#4
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	30 fps does not lock you into the NTSC DVD market. There are a lot of examples that point out that your statement is just not true. Blair Witch, Gengis Blues, Blood, Guts and High Octane, American Yearbook, and a lot of other transfers to film are examples of 30 fps video origination. My point is that there are relatively few 24p productions out there compared to the 30p market that Sony may very well decide the 24p market size is not sufficient to warrant the design investment in mid-range cameras. They are in business to sell as many cameras as they can for the least engineering and production costs. And they lead the pack in the CineAlta cameras at the serious (high-priced) end of the camera market. Your aspirations are great and I applaud them. But in the great scheme of camera sales, 24p requirements are but a fraction of the marketplace. I think Panasonic and JVC do these very nice but not mainstream products because they are niche products where Sony chooses not to compete. Can I be wrong? Absolutely. 24P is a great thing to hype. For that reason alone, it is compelling. It gives a company bragging rights. Which is what Panasonic is taking advantage of now. It may very well be true that their 24p camera is a loss-leader and they produced it to get some much-needed publicity for their entire line of cameras. Who really knows but them? I do not believe 24p would bring financial success at the level Sony requires for a major camera feature. From a purely selfish point of view, I don't want to pay for 24p either by having my pro cameras go up in price, losing another feature I'd rather have to make my work better, or reducing the quality of the camera to pay for the 24p. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

August 5th, 2003, 03:23 PM	#8
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	You are right about the i vs p mistake I made. I should have said 30 frames per second, interlaced or 60i with 60i being more concise. Wow, a lot of people pay attention! I"ve deleted the inaccurate info of my original post regarding the frame rate in which American Yearbook was taped and other info you can infer from my apology below __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

August 8th, 2003, 04:29 PM	#9
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	Correction Brian Ging emailed me to set me straight about in what mode they shot American Yearbook. They shot in 24P "standard" mode, not 30 as I read in Millimeter (who has the facts wrong). I may have inadvertently portayed Brian and his crew as disorganized and sloppy. That was not the intent nor the truth. They were harried because of a first day (night) late start and an early closing time for the shooting location. Brian pulled off a significant accomplishment with this film and it's not yet edited. After devoting more than 2 years of his life to the writing, planning and shooting of the work, he and the crew are to be commended. Any pain I caused Brian or anyone in his crew is deeply regretted. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

August 5th, 2003, 09:41 AM	#3
Glenn Gipson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Plainfield, New Jersey Posts: 927	Well, I happen to be one of those people whom thinks that 24p is more then just “hype.” I can’t speak for every digital filmmaker, but I’m one of the few DV moviemakers whom puts so much quality into his work, that I like to have the OPTION of going theatrical, even if I don’t land a theatrical deal. With 30p, you don’t have that option, you’re locked into the NTSC DVD market, and that’s that.

August 5th, 2003, 10:50 AM	#5
Glenn Gipson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Plainfield, New Jersey Posts: 927	>>Blair Witch, Gengis Blues, Blood, Guts and High Octane<< These were not 30p projects, they were 60i projects. There has not been one 30p project released on 35mm to date. While it can be done, most transfer houses highly advise against shooting on 30p. What they do recommend, and what most people confuse 30p with, is 60i.

August 5th, 2003, 11:50 AM	#6
Clayton Farr Contributor Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 94	Mike, thanks for the link to the article, but it looks as though they may have been remiss about not shooting in 24p. ('...didn't take full advantage of camera's abilities.') It appears they shot in 30p both because they were anticipating an exclusively NTSC 'release' and due to their lack of familiarity with their newly received DVX100. Especially now that common NLE tools are catching up with working with 24p material (and some doing it rather seamlessly) I would definitely advocate for working this way if your are trying to both approximate a filmic look as well as have the most universal master available. From 24fps you can then choose to go to film, NTSC, PAL, 24p DVD, and the like. My 2 cents, Clayton

August 5th, 2003, 12:05 PM	#7
Glenn Gipson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Plainfield, New Jersey Posts: 927	Yes, that's another issue, if you shoot 30p, you may run into problems when going into a PAL market. Everyone has to remember, 30p, is NOT 60i.

April 2nd, 2004, 01:07 AM	#10
Max Allen Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: NY Posts: 186	I've shot over 40 commercials in 24p. Practically every series on every major network is 24p these days. The 24p market is anything but small. Also, the independent film market is big for manufacturers. There is a reason why the XL1 revolutionized the industry, it wasn't wedding videos. Everyone followed that trend and continues to. Sony not making a lower cost 24p camera has nothing to do with the size of the 24p market. It has to do with a strategy to keep each camera in their product line sellable. Although they will be forced to change this strategy in the future. You can already see a sign in the upcoming XDcam with 24p capability, the only Sony camera aside from the 900 that's 24p capable. 24p when done right creates stunning results.

April 2nd, 2004, 01:41 AM	#11
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	Max, this is a good one to let lie. Raise a new thread if you want to talk about 24 p and put it in the Open DV discussion where it will be more available to everyone since it is not a Sony-only issue. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!