sony pd 170
 

After makeing a bold investment on the pd170 thinking that i had landed a top of the range dvcam camcorder sony seem only a few weeks away from releaseing the HDV format.

What does this mean for people like me, is it going to make my camera's life very short, the pd170 has only been out for about a year and already sony are giveing rebates on it with talk of it been replaced with the pro HDV model. No iam not against new technology but how can we keep up with it all, and how does this effect people like me who is hopeing to start makeing a living from filming and can't afford to be upgradeing every five minute's?

Iam i going to get left behind or will the pd170 stand its ground for the next few year's?

worried regards

Ian.

Ian,
It depends on how you intend making the camera pay for itself as well as earning your living. If you intend to shoot for UK broadcast, the the lack of true 16:9 will be a drawback. I'll be going with the XL2.
Personally, I wouldn't bother about HDV yet, not with only one camera being available...

Robin

Personally I wouldn't worry about the HD cams yet UNLESS you plan on shooting HD. I've ben using 150's for about 3 years now and for weddings no ones every asked about HD. A few about 16:9 but they were just asking. The 170 is a fine piece of equipment that will be around for many years to come as is its predecessor, the 150.
I would concentrate on making great video with a great camera before I'd worry about being left out in the cold equipment wise.

Don B

sony pd170
 

Thanks Don for your post,

You have made me feel alot better, Iam just concerned about the pace thing's are changeing. one minute you have one of the best dv camcorders around the next it's old hat'

anyway thanks again

Ian.

Note the new Sony HDV camera is "consumer." A "pro" version will be at next year's NAB I believe according to Sony so there's really time unless your looking at the VX2100 feature set by comparision. To me features like XLR connectors and how manual modes are handled are important.

One key question to ask is how many of your clients or potential clients have true HDTV (NOT 16x9 !!!) displays. Are they willing to PAY MORE to justify you equipment expense (Sony says pro camera will be around $7000).

If you're a "film" maker you might have more of a reason to switch to HDV sooner since you'd be thinking about theatrical presentation.

Don't forget HDV is heavily MPEG2 compressed. I'd really like to know how artifacts are avoided on "busy" shots. I can't imagine it matchs 2PassVBR encoding (which is not real time for most of us) found on a commercial DVD.

I don't doubt one of the reasons Sony's pro model is a bit aways is that they want to get feedback from early users of the "consumer" camera so the "pro" camera is truly pro as far as feature set is concerned.

And the pro version is said by Sony to be coming in at about $7,000

HD in the UK? A non-issue, Ian. Thanks to the high quality images you get with the PAL system, there is very little interest in Hi Def for the near future, according to numerous sources. You might prowl the BBC site for further information on the topic. Or, contact Christina Fox at her website, http://www.urbanfox.tv She used to work for the BBC, and her website is a goldmine of info about the Sony cameras. I'm sure she will tell you to forget the HD, and enjoy your new camera.

Wayne Orr, SOC

Thanks very much for that Wayne i will take a look

Thanks
Ian

Salve Your Conscience, Ian
 

Ian, if it makes you feel any better, I just purchased the PD 170 as a wedding videography replacement for my XL1s. Just read the posts on here about the 170's picture quality and you should sleep well.

Also, the $300 rebate made the deal even better. My B & H package included a UV filter, aftermaket ten hour battery and shipping, total $3,295.00 Couple that with Sony's $300.00 cash back and you have a camera for under $3,000.00 that sold for $3,999.00 just seven months ago!

As far as 16 x 9, hell, just use rubber bands across the flip out screen as a 16 X 9 "guide" not unlike the XL1s.

Cheers!

I have a friend that just THIS WEEK traded his 3 XL-1s's with Manual lenses in for a PD-170 and 2 VX2100's.

Besides...currently there's no digital medium to deliver the edited content to the client. They are now selling HD VCRs but who wants to take a step back to a Tape Medium as delivery format. I'll have to wait till blue-ray or some other technology to take over that will allow delivery of HD content digitally. Even then it be several MORE years for consumers (ie clients) to catch up and become a standard.

SD is not dead- not for a long while.

Thanks Hugh and Glen,

I have just sold my trustie XL1 and am sad about it, but life goes on! up to now the 170s picture is better than the XL1 i think,, its just the zoom is not as good, I also do wildlife films and might struggle abit to get the close ups i did with the XL1, ( i had to part with it to generate funds) and iam now looking for a converter, the Ranox 2.2x pro, has anybody used one

thanks Ian

I guess I'm the guy Glen was talking about...having just dumped my Canons....

Just a few moments ago I saw a videographer from WMAZ13 (TV Station from Macon Ga) with a camera outside a store taking some shots of customers entering...he was using a 170. I asked him if he like the little guy...and he he couldn't stop talking about how great the cam is...especially now that he don't have to lug around his old/big cam. He told me except for their studio cameras, they have switched all their field cams to the 170.....

They switched to the 170? That's impressive. What did they have before? BetaSP?

Does anyone think Sony will come out with a PD-170 upgrade with 24 frames or will they just go with the HD?

I believe that's it since the HDV camera will also do DV

I got to look at the Sony consumer HDV camera at the recent VideoMaker trade show in NJ. Although it doesn't record 24p it does to a simulated 24p on output. Sony rep said it doesn't lose resolution when doing that. Not sure how it does it though including progressive frames or 3/2 pull down, but a cursory glance at the effect looked convincing.

How much will that cost Craig?

Do you think there are plans for a PD-170a or something that has 24 0r 25 frames without the HD?

<<<-- Originally posted by Bob Zimmerman : Do you think there are plans for a PD-170a or something that has 24 0r 25 frames without the HD? -->>>

Highly doubtful!

<<<-- Originally posted by Frederic Segard : <<<-- Originally posted by Bob Zimmerman : Do you think there are plans for a PD-170a or something that has 24 0r 25 frames without the HD? -->>>

Highly doubtful! -->>>


So I should go ahead and just get the PD-170? When is the next big show that Sony will announce the new cameras?

I would like to have the 24 frames but I don't have to have it and I won't be able to afford $7,000.

If you need the 170 XLR and other features, then it isn't a bad buy. But if the specs of the consumer HDV camera appeal to you, then why not, for not much more money, get it?

You get an apparently effective 24 fps, real 16:9, DV and HDV and probably a few other goodies too.

<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Rehmus : If you need the 170 XLR and other features, then it isn't a bad buy. But if the specs of the consumer HDV camera appeal to you, then why not, for not much more money, get it?

You get an apparently effective 24 fps, real 16:9, DV and HDV and probably a few other goodies too. -->>>

I guess I'll wait to see what it's like. But I need a good camera not a consumer level one.

Supposedly Sony will have a "Pro" version listing at around $7000 next year (NAB?). Given the price difference ($3700 for consumer version) I think it will include a bit more than XLRs.

<<<-- Originally posted by Craig Seeman : Supposedly Sony will have a "Pro" version listing at around $7000 next year (NAB?). Given the price difference ($3700 for consumer version) I think it will include a bit more than XLRs. -->>>

Presenting the world’s first consumer 1080i high definition camcorder, the Sony Handycam® HDR-FX1. A revolution in form and function, the HDR-FX1 allows you to play and record interlaced high definition video at resolutions up to 1440 x 1080 for professional quality video with vivid colors and striking detail. It even offers the ability to switch to standard DV recording and playback as the situation warrants.

The HDR-FX1 features the Real-time HD Codec Engine, which offers professional-level MPEG2 video compression, and 14bit HD DXP (Digital Extended Processor) for increased processing speed. Images are captured on three chip Advanced HAD™ CCD system that provides increased detail and improved video performance without the color bleeding found in other system. Optical capabilities include a Carl Zeiss® Vario-Sonnar® T* lens with 12x optical zoom and Super SteadyShot® image stabilization.

The HDR-FX1 offers an unprecedented amount of control to the user, including manual zoom, focus, and iris control. Picture Profile™ allows the user to create a number of preset video modes for a variety of shooting settings. Composing shots is easier than even with the 3.5" precision hybrid SwivelScreen™ LCD display1 and the extra-large electronic viewfinder.

<<<-- Originally posted by Bob Zimmerman : <<<-- Originally posted by Craig Seeman : Supposedly Sony will have a "Pro" version listing at around $7000 next year (NAB?). Given the price difference ($3700 for consumer version) I think it will include a bit more than XLRs. -->>>

Presenting the world’s first consumer 1080i high definition camcorder, the Sony Handycam® HDR-FX1. A revolution in form and function, the HDR-FX1 allows you to play and record interlaced high definition video at resolutions up to 1440 x 1080 for professional quality video with vivid colors and striking detail. It even offers the ability to switch to standard DV recording and playback as the situation warrants.

The HDR-FX1 features the Real-time HD Codec Engine, which offers professional-level MPEG2 video compression, and 14bit HD DXP (Digital Extended Processor) for increased processing speed. Images are captured on three chip Advanced HAD™ CCD system that provides increased detail and improved video performance without the color bleeding found in other system. Optical capabilities include a Carl Zeiss® Vario-Sonnar® T* lens with 12x optical zoom and Super SteadyShot® image stabilization.

The HDR-FX1 offers an unprecedented amount of control to the user, including manual zoom, focus, and iris control. Picture Profile™ allows the user to create a number of preset video modes for a variety of shooting settings. Composing shots is easier than even with the 3.5" precision hybrid SwivelScreen™ LCD display1 and the extra-large electronic viewfinder. -->>>


Just got that from Sonystyle website. It looks kind of cheap to me. They list the price at $3,600.

"cheap?"

Great price point. Be aware drawbacks are: No XLR, No independent control of the two audio channels, rated "4lux" not great in low light.

My additional concern. Given the HDV format, are there visible MPEG2 compression artifacts when shooting fast motion or moving the camera quickly in, high contrast or wide chroma "swing" subjects, etc.?

BTW even though the camera is a little bit heavier and wider than the PD170 it's got GREATLY improved ergonomics. You no longer have to open the LCD (Now placed towards the top front) to get to the menus. They're availble from the back of the camera. Cassette door now moved to were the LCD was - means you can continue to hand hold cam with right hand while you change tapes with left.

There will be a "pro" model at nearly twice the price. That's the camera I'll be looking at.

Business questions:

To spend $7G on a camera I'll have to increase my rate. Will clients be willing to pay that even if they're only shooting DV? BTW there are MANY improvements on this cam that affect DV (Sony's equivalent to Panny's cinegamma, the ability to store settings so you can prese zooms and rack focus points) too but that doesn't change the cost of buying it.

How many clients are going to ask and pay for HD given the limited number of TV sets out there and even more limited ways to deliver the final product. As a reminder 16x9 you see on DVDs and many 16x9 TV sets are NOT HD. Also some sets are only 720p and the current Sony HDV camera records only at 1080i (maybe this will be one of the additions to the pro camera).

I'm sure it's not cheap, but compared to the pd-170 it looks cheaper. I plan on getting back into event work and I can't afford $7,000 or do I want to wait a year. But I was hoping Sony would upgrade the 170. This HD camera is not an upgrade to me it's a new camera.

Sony "consumer" HiDef/DV camera
 

Saw the Sony HD consumer camera at VideoMaker Expo in NJ a couple of weeks ago. It was a small trade show so I got one on one hands on experience using the camera and the attention of two Sony reps who went through EVERY feature including allowing me to point the camera arround under ugly trade show lights.

Believe me it's sturdy and well designed. Not cheap at all! I suspect the Pro version will be even more so. My only design concern would be under what conditions could the LCD break off given the way it's anchored.

I would NOT consider it an "event" camera. Low light just not good enough. Sony reps were quite honest about that. I saw it first hand in the dark cornors of the trade show room. Then again if you have an "event" client who owns a HiDef TV set then they'll have to accept using lighting and pay the extra dollars. Problem is there's NO EASY WAY to deliver final product YET. Maybe a Sony Blue Ray HiDef DVD but then you'd have to have the burner, the media, and the client would have to have the HiDef DVD player ( I can't emphasize enough that's NOT the same as 16x9 which you can get now on consumer DVD players).

Be aware though, this consumer camera, EXCEPT for the low light issue, is an EXCELLENT improvment over the VX2100 in it's handling of miniDV. Sony equivalent of Panny 100 CineGamma and a NICE "pseudo" 24p out (it creates the 24p on PLAYBACK not record).

I suspect the pro model wil also do an even more excellent job with miniDV standard. I would hope that as part of that $7000 it'll handle low light in miniDV mode like the 170.

Business question would be - If you're primarily using miniDV standard (not HiDef) what camera would you get. The NEW Sony Camera can provide much of the look of the Panny 100 (neither is a low light camera) at a very similar price. Panny records 24p. Sony records HiDef 1080i. What you get depends on whether you have or can get clients who WANT and are willing to PAY for HiDef.

Next business question related to above. If next year's Sony Pro model looks as good at Panny 100 you have to think about the price difference. It's only worthwhile if you have HiDef clients who will PAY YOU a HIGHER RATE or increase business volume to recoup and profit from the cost.

I plan on using DV. Wasn't thinking much about HD. But if the PD-170 was going to upgrade with 24p I would wait till it came out.

Right now $3,000 will be around my limit. Maybe alittle more in a few months if there is a PD-170 with a upgrade.

B&H emailed me a price on the PD-170 with the rebate of $2,800. I think thats a pretty good price.

Bob,

Judging from Sony tendencies and its history, it is highly doubtful that Sony will update their PD170 to 24p, let alone 16:9. First of all, their CCDs are interline, not progressive, so this rules out simple firmware updates. I truly believe that the PD170 is their last DVCAM SD prosumer camcorder. While the PD170 will remain in their sales catalog, their new Z1 1080i camcorder will be their new crown jewel for the prosumer market. Will the FX1 or Z1 have 24p? As previously stated in an above post, it's highly doubtful. It would be nice, but since it’s not in the HDV spec…

Just to be clear, the FX1 and the pro camera to follow (likely) ARE ALSO miniDV cameras. They can record BOTH HD (HDV acutally) and miniDV. The FX1 has a kind of 24p on Playback but not sure how they do it.

Don't forget even the Panny 100 is actually recording to tape at 29.97 (NTSC) and ADDING the 3:2 pulldown to tape to make it 29.97fps.

So if I want a good event camera and for weddings the PD-170 is going to be a good choice? $2,800 is a pretty good price.

a side question: does the mic come off the PD-170? Can you put a different one on if you want? Thanks.

<<<-- Originally posted by Bob Zimmerman : So if I want a good event camera and for weddings the PD-170 is going to be a good choice? $2,800 is a pretty good price.

a side question: does the mic come off the PD-170? Can you put a different one on if you want? Thanks. -->>>

PD-170 is best event camera around and will be for some time my hunch.

PD-170 has TWO XLR ins. Sony mic that comes with it doesn't have to be attached. When I shoot events I use the Sony shotgun mic to one input and a wireless lav on the groom to the other. Catch the vows on one mic and the room reaction on the other. Each mic can have separate levels.

When shooting corporate or clubs, shotgun in one XLR for room ambiance and mixing board feed into the other for clean sound. Each XLR input can be switched to Line input for a mixing board feed for example. This is an example of what can't be done with FX1 without adding a box with two xlrs to stereo mini (or VX2100). That's ONE difference between "consumer" and (semi) pro cameras.

Other folks I'm sure can list many good uses to having two separate XLR ins.

If you aren't going to take the Sony HD plunge, YES, absolutely, the PD170 is a very fine event acquisition tool, probably the best in it's class.
Is the Sony HD cam better? I have no idea. No one does. If you need/want to buy right now, go for the 170.

I don't see HD as that big right now. It probably will be in a few years but not enough for me to spend $7,000 grand or $3,600 for a consumer camera. That $7,000 grand pro HD will be in the $3,000 range in a couple of years anyway!!

A couple of things to think about. If a client is willing to pay me enough money for an HD project, I'd consider buying one. I'd have to know I can make back the cost of the camera and then some on a couple of HD projects. It would be an alternative to clients who wouldn't be able to touch HD otherwise.

Another thing to think about. They have improved things on the DV end also. The consumer camera is actually a close match to the Panny 100A. One issue is the lack of XLRs on the Sony consumer HDV camera. From a price competitive standpoint I'd wish they'd add the XLRs and maybe hike the price another grand (similar price difference between VX2100 and PD170) so they'd have something similar to the Panny 100A with HDV added. It would probably be at a price point similar (a little less even) to Cannon's new XL2

The Pro camera will have XLRs but that'll cost nearly twice as much. I'd expect they'll be more than just XLRs added to the "pro" version to justify that cost increase.

This first post has caused a bit of a debate and we are all wondering what this hi def format will offer, I for one after parting with £2440 for the pd170 thinking that this was top notch video came to earth with a bump as Sony promoted the new camcorder.

But after reading some other forums which say that the new cam produces paler pics in dv form than the pd 170, and about some sort of freezeing or delay in the new format makes me happy that i have invested in the robust format of the pd170.


Lets give HD a few years to sort it's self out and meanwhile enjoy the fantastic quality that the pd170 and like give us.


regards Ian

For some reason a lot of people view video equipment purchases the same way that they do computer equipment. It's not like your camera won't be worth a damn in six months or a year. NTSC has been around for a long, long time and it is a VERY entrenced standard. That's not to say that a better camera won't come along in the next few months or years, but "upgrading" with video equipment generally isn't anywhere near as compelling as it is with computer equipment.

Also keep in mind that your camera is only one piece in your array of equipment. Good lighting, good audio and other items are just as important if not more so.

Just when I get my mind made up I read something else!!!

So the PD-170 looks like the event camera I want. But I would like something it play around with filmmaking. I've read this camera is a good choice. How much of a drawback is not having 16:9? I'm sure that there are ways to make it work.
Will it look good on a wide screen TV or even a High Def set?

Any thoughts to even more confuse me!!

No one camera does it all. The PD-170 has a built in anamorphic 16x9 mode with some loss of resolution. You can get an anamorphic lense for it which will give you better resolution. Neither is HiDef. 16x9 is not HiDef.

You can get a Sony PDX-10 which has true 16x9 chips BUT doesn't have very good low light characteristics OR you can simpy get the new FX1 knowing that you'll have to hook it up to your HiDef TV to see HiDef.

Don't forget the FX1 can do both DV and HDV BUT it doesn't have great low light characteristics.

If you're doing events to make money get the 170. There certainly have been docs and some "indy" films done with it.

Any camera you buy will be better at some things than others. You need to prioritize.