Sony EX and Weddings

[John Bosco Jr.]

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

Just to play devil's advocate and keep in line with the thread topic -
Why choose the EX1 over, let's say, the V1 for weddings?

They're both HD, the V1 can shoot SD 16:9 and goes to tape and allows real time downconvert out of the camera.

The question is, will the client see the difference between V1 and EX1 video? I know us professionals can but we're talking about wedding clients here.

Well, mostly the operator. Real lens for a more true manual focus. The option of shooting 720p or 1080i. Overcrank or undercrank. And the most useful feature would be better low light performance.

A lot of professionals are not jumping on the tapeless bandwagon. I just heard that the ABC affliate here in Tampa will outfit their news photographers with JVC 250 cameras. The Newscast just went High Def and currently still shoot on Beta SX, which is SD. Since ABC 28 is a Scripps Howard owned station, the company most likely will purchase the 250s for all of the TV stations in their broadcast division. This is a broadcast TV giant that is staying away from tapeless for news gathering anyway.

[Craig Seeman]

Sorry for excerpting but I'd though I'd focus on key points of your response.

If the client can't tell the difference. We need to address the other factors. The EX will generally have a higher cost of ownership than HDV. There's the cost of cards and XDCAM archival vs improved work flow (faster ingest).

The challenge of doing multi-camera shoots. They'll be fewer EX1 owners out there, The cost of hiring a 2nd shooter should fairly be significantly more.

If the customer won't see the difference and there's the additional cost of ownership and the cost of the 2nd camera (whether hired or owned outright) means one has to pass that cost on to the customer unless the workflow (fast ingest) means you can increase productivity (number of jobs).

One may be able to buy outright 2 or maybe 3 Sony V1s for the cost of 1 EX. WE KNOW the EX is better (for many reasons obvious to us) but if the customer can't see it/pay more for it then is buying going to be a profitable or competitive decision in the wedding biz?

Yes, it's obvious to me that someone with good DP skills will clearly have more control and produce better work with EX1 but there does seem to be a point where customers just aren't that discerning as you suggest.

Does the changed (improved?) workflow and increased cost of ownership (plus cost of hiring additional cameras) combined with customers who can't really discern the difference between a V1 and an EX1 translate into making more money?

BTW whether doing weddings, local cable spots or corporate work, NO ONE has yet ASKED me if I shoot or deliver HD. So I've had no motive to move to HDV (EX1 is a different story - see below).

What attracts me to the EX1 is that I think HDV has horrid workflow issues, the current HDV cameras have low light issues, the HDV encoding itself has issues with motion. The EX1 improves all the above.

1) Workflow - faster ingest (but one should add the time to archive and XDCAM discs are much more expensive than tape).
2) Better (best?) low light performance for a "handycam" sized HD Camera. Customers WILL see that. They often ask questions in that area.
3) Better encoding - 35mbps VBR doesn't seem to have the issues 25mbps CBR (HDV) has. Shooting 60p in XDCAM may yield nicer slo-mos that customers may see especially compared to slowing down the "artifacted" motion shots visable in some HDV shots.

But the increase cost of ownership and hiring additional cameras have to be offset by more income to make the EX1 viable business decision.

Originally Posted by Peter Jefferson

"The question is, will the client see the difference between V1 and EX1 video? ". . . They will simply see HD or SD...

. . . the camera itself, the EX in itself will make shooting HD a much more viable option FOR THE SHOOTER . . . it will change the way HD is perceived on an acquisition level. . .

. . . this camera changes the way a company may work with media, and frankly, i can se how in the longterm it will benefit many companies, my own included, however as it stands, and with the lack of demand for HD, the EX will only make shooting HD a more viable option due to the control, CMOS performance and codec/media management.
These 3 elements are the TRUE differentials which keep the EX above tape based HDV.
To the client, these 3 elements mean NOTHING

[Craig Seeman]

OT for weddings but - I have signficant experience with BetaSX (CRINGE!).

I bet I can guess their reasoning for going with the JVC 250 and it's not because they love HDV. Probably they want shoulder mount, maybe interchangeable lenses (but do news crews really change lenses?) and SDI output. My guess it's that unique combo they feel they need for their workflow. I don't think there are a lot of HDV decks that can play JVC HDV 720p60 short GOP from what I understand. I certainly can't believe they expect that tape format as useful archival.

Locally I see lots of HVX200s used for news. I believe they're shooting DVCPro50 to P2 though. Fast ingest and a good 4:2:2 I frame codec. They can use the same cameras in DVCPro100 mode when they jump to HD.

XDCAM is also (330, 350 and others) popular for ENG work. My guess is when those stations move to HD they'll be getting EX1s and I think Sony is banking on that (just my guess).

ENG is one of the best market niches for tapeless since fast ingest is key. Those stations that use tape often reuse them (e.g. BetaSP) several times so there's often no thought about source tape archival as a tape vs non tape issue.

Originally Posted by John Bosco Jr.

. . .
A lot of professionals are not jumping on the tapeless bandwagon. I just heard that the ABC affliate here in Tampa will outfit their news photographers with JVC 250 cameras. The Newscast just went High Def and currently still shoot on Beta SX, which is SD. Since ABC 28 is a Scripps Howard owned station, the company most likely will purchase the 250s for all of the TV stations in their broadcast division. This is a broadcast TV giant that is staying away from tapeless for news gathering anyway.

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

I bet I can guess their reasoning for going with the JVC 250 ......... Probably they want shoulder mount, maybe interchangeable lenses (but do news crews really change lenses?) and SDI output.

Much easier to put accesories on a JVC250 and still end up with a package that's relatively easy to handhold - everything from on camera lights, radio mic receivers, Firestore etc. And using pro 12 volt batteries, no problem with powering it all either.

The V lock and SDI output even makes it fairly straightforward to put a radiocam transmitter directly on to one of these cameras, something not really feasible with most cameras in this price range.

[Steven Thomas]

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman

The EX1 is noticeably more sensitive than the Z1/V1 and has very very little noise.

Alister, how would you compare the F350 noise levels to the EX1?
I realize the F350 is a $25K camera. I see the specs for the F350 are:
F9 @ 2000 lux , 54dB(S/N)
I believe the EX1 specs are 54dB(S/N) with F10 @ 2000 lux.

I imagine you've seen this EX1 frame grab (rename to .tif):
http://www.dvinfo.net/media/xdcamex/...g%20720p25.tix
There appears to be a lot of noise in the sky. The 24P wakeboarding image
appears to be a lot cleaner, but has more light.

[Stu Holmes]

Originally Posted by Mike Williams

I don't like 4 lux ratings for my biz. The A1U has CMOS and a 4 lux rating and it suxs for low light.

The A1U is rated as 7lux for min.illumination.
....But agreed on your comment on (relative) lowlight performance!

[Mike Williams]

ALL THIS TIME!!! They lied to me :)

This thing is a marvel no doubt (A1U) I send them out regularly.

The workflow and the archiving issues having been covered.

I would like to add that althogh we may need to archive back to something else doing anything back to tape as HDV is rediculous...as has been mentioned...AND it won't save your project files etc...

At least from what I gather you can dump everything back to disk etc...raw footage, all project files, in my case FCP, DVDSP, etc... If there are changes to be made how do you handle that now?

If you dumped the capture scratch, (to make space) you need to reload the raw footage and pray it lines up..... no thanks...

I hope I'm coherent... I also need to talk myself into spending 10K on this cam + gear....

I posted about longevity in an earlier thread again trying to justify the added expense of this cam vs what we have now. If I go EX I will want to get at least three good years out of it.

The additional cost over the Z1's when spread over that timeline is minimal, taking into the time saving benefits of the EX as well as possible new packages I will be able to offer.

Mike

[Alister Chapman]

Noise: Overall compared to my F350 if anything, the EX1 appeared to show less noise! Non of the material I have shot with the EX1 exhibits noise that is in any way objectionable or obtrusive. We shot some big black steam trains and the blacks and shadows were very clean.

[Martin Mayer]

Alister (or anyone): any idea if the Expanded Focus function of the EX-1 works while recording?

[Piotr Wozniacki]

I guess I read somewhere that yes, it does. Anyone who actually was using the cam please confirm!

[Steven Thomas]

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman

Noise: Overall compared to my F350 if anything, the EX1 appeared to show less noise! Non of the material I have shot with the EX1 exhibits noise that is in any way objectionable or obtrusive. We shot some big black steam trains and the blacks and shadows were very clean.

That's great news.
Any chance of a small clip?

[Alister Chapman]

Expand Image does work while recording and gives an exact 1:1 pixel for pixel mapping on the 640x480 LCD.

[Serena Steuart]

>>>no one has HD in their house as yet<<<

Really? Where are they putting them then? Certainly being bought in this bit of the woods. Vegas Pro 8 will render Blu-Ray plus most formats. Something not being available in the Apple world isn't a point against anything. However I'm sure Apple will get on board pretty quickly.

[Mike Williams]

LOL... where are they putting them? I finally broke down and got one about a year ago or so. I put mine in my house on the wall...

I was a big home theater nut and had a 7 foot wide screen with a big CRT projector in a totally black room.. so my taste is elevated in that regard.

Regardless even delivering in SD the HD cams kick butt..... I have recently been forced to edit SD from a GL2 cannon and it was like going back to 8 track.... blah blah blah

Still have the taste in my mouth.... I'll deal with longer renders etc. Soon all this will be a moot point.

Somehow I think if we could read the "forums" of when we went to color from black and white or even silent to sound there would be the same disscussion.

Mike

[Dennis Robinson]

Originally Posted by Mike Williams

If you needed to buy new equipment now.... would you buy SD cams?

What price do you put on your own personal vision?

Why do the best mechanics buy the best tools?

I value my work and want to "paint" with the best materials regardless of if the bride is nuts or not. I extract joy from shooting and therefore want to use the best tools I can afford.

Mike

Absolutely agree Mike. I have been using the JVC HD 111 cam for about a year now and there is no way i am shooting SD again. I get a real buzz when i see the footage. I love my work and dont care at all if the end result is only SD. All my clients are impressed when i tell them i am shooting in HD. I charge more and even if i offer a good rate i tell them I will use hD for the same price as SD. I am not going back.