So why do you want a Sony XDCAM EX ?
 

Maybe it's time to reflect, sit back and ask yourself why do I really want this camera I will start with my own appraisal.
Pros...
1. Good quality pictures at a reasonable cost without having to sell the wife (again).
2. A 14x Fujinon lens that works like a proper manual lens and because of its design won't suffer back focus problems and get dust onto the sensor.
3. Uses a card system that has already been adopted by others, this makes it competitive and is likely to lead to better pricing.
4. Sony has given me a jolt by bringing out an HD ONLY camera, I like many others have been pondering about HD and this has given me the incentive to jump.
5. You have 2 choices to ARCHIVE with the Sony...hard drive or XDCAM optical disc...I think for corporate/educational work like mine the optical route is the safest.
6. Your material is compatible with all XDCAM HD footage which could bring many bonuses for 2nd camera work etc.
7. The camera looks good and will impress your client who will be fascinated by the lack of tape...as an aside many of my clients want to review footage on the day and using mini DV there is always the chance of damaging that section of tape if rewound too often...that will no longer be an issue.
8. If it's like my P2 camera I wont be spending time transferring my footage in real time...5 one hour mini DV tapes can really hold up the start of an edit.
9. I like the SONY picture it's been a while since I have had a Sony camera (Z1) but looking at a recent 3 camera edit the Sony camera did produce the better image.

Cons...
1. As for any cutting edge technology it would be useful to have belt and braces like an FS4 EX tapeless recorder.
2. Having dipped my toe into HD 8 weeks ago with green screen footage, yes it gave a good key but when I took the footage into Motion and added an HD jump back...Motion went like treacle...I have since been given some tips for future HD using Apple ProRES codec.
3. Price for 16GB sticks are about £450 which I hope will drop sooner rather than later.

There are more pros than cons... That's why i want an EX ;)

Hi George, I'm quite excited like all of you i believe; This camera looks like a big jump further in performance and hassle free workflow and storage.
But on one side i'm scared. I've been a Z1 owner since the camera came out and to tell the whole truth i've been disappointed and frustrated from the performance and all the issues of it. When the Z1 was presented at the time i remember all the reviews and rumors, all refering at the Z1 like "the camera". Now, after years, (but i sold my Z1 only an year later i had it), i can tell that none of the reviews was close to the reality, nobody at the time was writing about the electronic look of the camera, the very bad encoding system with all the related artifacts issues and so on and on with a long list.
I end up buying a Jvc hd 101, wich i still have and so far perform really well and deliver a superb look despite to all the problems it has at his launch.
Now, i'm not here to compare the two, but i feel myself to not trust Sony anymore. (see issues with the v1 as well). Damn, looks like they use the market to test the equipment!!! Can't believe their engineers aren't able to discover that their product are not ready to go on the market.
So, here i am, looking at the new ex1, dreaming on the beautiness of the images produced that are promised in all the reviews (so far), and all the cons that everybody claims (so) far.
We still have to discover where the trick is. And i'm not talking about the clear and visible cons, but the hiddens, the one you discover on the field, the limits of the camera itself. (If you own a z1 and you record some figure like a person simply walking in the frame from a side to another and you rewatch the footage frame by frame you make the odd discover that the figure will be accompanied by a "ghost" effect, two or three colors blending from the figure and magically floating outside of it, and this can be difficult even for a pro like David Copperfield).
So, this time it's clear that Sony is running behind competitors, giving a proper lens to the ex1 (to beat jvc) and tapeless solution (Pana); coming out with a "jewel", the new chip, adding something that the others still missing. Wich will be the price? Who knows.......

Fabrizio I share your dilemma, I also bought the JVC HD101 to replace the Z1 and apart from Sony (PD170 onwards) JVC produce a very natural picture. All cameras have their "looks" and I have noticed that it changes ever so slightly per upgrade ie. PD150 (Red) to PD170 not as red. I take reviews with a pinch
of salt you only have to read reviews on digital SLRs to see how wrong a reviewer can get it. We are the testers it's all part of the game, though todays cameras are firmware upgradable and most problems can be ironed out this way. I had a dead pixel in my JVC101 that only manifested itself after an hour or so, I phoned JVC who told me how to fix this and it worked, this gave me great faith in the technology, in fact the JVC engineer told me that if you take the 100/200 series cameras through a metal detector in an airport it could cause a deal pixel so he advised me to take a note of the procedure for future use.

My favoured pro video store is flatly, if not even slightly aggressively disinterested in the EX1. They're happy to sell Z1s and the like, but they're not going to bother with the EX1. They're nuts, and needless to say have lost a customer.

As far as I'm concerned, it's a Z1 with shallow DoF, progressive scan, decent lens, good low light performance, good cine-gamma control (I hope), and a slightly improved workflow over the HVX P2.

Having said that, I would have preferred a 18 Mbps 'economy' setting for doing conferences, and I'm unsure about a 4:3 mode for conference work (that clients want to fit the same screen as traditional PowerPoint), and still a little concerned about the lack of SD.

But having spent the summer with an HVX200 - exclusively using P2, I am so convinced that I'd have got one (possibly with a Brevis) had it not been for the EX1.


BTW - as a slight aside on this tape/card thing... Pro photographer friends of mine have gone entirely digital, with the 'switch' being the capacity - 4 and 8 gig cards being enough for most shoots, assuming a nightly download.

A 4 Gig card and an HVX is a bit painful. A 128 Gig card at the same price would be different. I don't see cards coming down to the price of XDCAM discs, but given a few years, I'd put money on capacity rising so fast that the price per Gb would exceed XDCAMs. At which point, I can budget for keeping used cards as backup.

And I'll admit to accidentally putting a Compact Flash card through a standard laundry wash - the data remained intact, the card completely undamaged after gentle drying, and is still in use on my old PCs.

Does anyone know whether there are higher capacity SxS cards in the works, and what size they will be?

As I have read 32GB to date

My understanding is that the EX will have three quality settings including an 'economy' mode like you described, so that's one less thing to worry about. As far as HD-only recording is concerned, that's not a big deal unless someone expects you to hand them a miniDV tape at the end of a shoot, in which case the EX1 wouldn't be a suitable camera. For anything else, it's easy enough with today's editing software to downrez and crop from HD to 4:3 SD, and I've done this before for at least one project shot in HDV.

If/when I can afford it I'd want an EX1 for three main reasons compared to my HDV cameras (assuming these hold true): better low-light sensitivity, better resolution and better DOF control. What's not to like about a camera with true 1080p resolution from the sensor to the recording format, plus a decent-size (for the price) 1/2" sensor? If the EX1 lives up to its specs it should clearly be a breakthrough product...now they just need to get the cost of the SxS cards down.

Looking at the European product brochure, it only mentions 25mbps CBR and 35mbps VBR modes. No "economy" mode. If you see that listed somewhere please do provide the link.

I'm still very much confused on this one. At DVExpo East in July, the Sony rep EXPLICITLY said the camera would be able to use the low cost cards (about $200 at the time) at the cost of very slow transfer times. More recently people are claiming Sony is now saying otherwise.

IF it can handle the slower cheaper cards, that's what you can hand to the client although you HAVE TO add the cost to the shoot. The client though, won't need any video gear at all (unlike DV or HDV tape) since the card would be viewable with any laptop with Express port.

Why I want the EX1?
 

I can't stand HDV (25mpbs CBR) as a codec and as a workflow. As the poster above mentions about their experiences with the Z1, I've seen and heard enough about codec issues to wait for a successor.

While HDV can look good in many "ideal" circumstances, those circumstances often do not exist wiht hand held run and gun. I recently shot a marketing piece for a client (PD170) which involved whipping the camera around alot (fast pans) from products to logos to customers along with many fast zooms. In addition there was some inside shooting in very poor lighting. I CRINGE at the thought of what that would be like with HDV.

XDCAM (35mbps VBR) has a proven itself in the news gathering environment so can probably hold up to similar run & gun corporate shoots (as well as weddings) given both the codec and the better low light ability of this camera.

Right now the only "reasonable" (IMHO) HD formats for the lower end of the market are P2/DVCProHD or XDCAM and, for me, XDCAM wins. It provides for more video per gigabyte (35mbps vs 100mbps) and a reasonable and proven means of archival (XDCAM discs). The SxS cards hold more promise for greater price drops than P2 also.

Simply, I want to offer good HD for my clients and XDCAM wins over P2 and HDV for me.

Although I own a Panasonic HVX200 P2 camera it looks dumpy and domestic, Panasonic might bring out a better design but I think old Sony have kicked them in the "pixels" with the EX and I think it will be hard to beat. Coming from a P2 owner I think the SxS card will win...but only if we get 64GB and above...I remember Panasonic telling us they would have 128GB P2 cards, thats never going to happen now in fact I would not be surprised if Pana are developing their own SxS camera..remember their promice with the M2 format !

In the "next round" Panasonic will probably try to come out with a $3000 version of the HVX200 (HVX100?). In addition they will tout SD compatibility (missing from Sony EX1).

My guess is Panasonic's strategy will be to accommodate the transition from SD/DV, include DVCPro50 (SD) and allow one to shoot in DVCPro100 (HD) too.

Sony's strategy will be to push the market to HD. Sell more Sony HDTVs, sell Blu-ray players. I also think this is part of their strategy to beat HDDVD. Note how close Blu-ray is to XDCAM HD. They may well be redoing Betamax(failed)/BetaCam (big success) with hindsight that they think can make that work this time with Blu-ray/XDCAM HD. Panasonic may includ a "pro" version of AVCHD (no GOP) to accomodate as much or more data on their P2 cards as a way to counter XDCAM at 35mbps compared to DVCProHD at 100mbps.

In the round that follows, Sony will come out with their $3000 "EX Junior" (kinda in a bad name position calling the current model "1") but I have no idea whether it'll accommodate an SD format or acquisition other than solid state. The crystal ball clouds.

In any case, I do expect that Panasonic's next move will be a lower cost P2 camera which will counter both the EX1 and the Z1/V1.

BTW, I predicted Sony would come out with a lower cost XDCAM when Panny came out with the P2. It was inevitable. The hard part is predicting how fast and with what feature sets the cameras will advance with.

Within 2 years all Prosummer cameras will be non tape (Canon and JVC point to this too based on their presentation at DVExpo East in July).

P2 is doomed and DVCProHD may not be far behind it, so Panasonic's future moves will likely be based on AVC encoding. We've already seen this with their little 3-chip AVCHD camera, and the ideal successor to the HVX200 would be something using AVC-intra at up to 50 Mbps on standard (high-end) flash memory cards. But Sony has set the bar high by using 1920x1080 sensors and a matching recording format with an equivalent delivery option on Blu-ray discs. Panasonic has to go to AVC to survive, and if they're smart they'll dump P2 in the process and show us what's possible using *affordable* solid-state memory.

Quite correct, Kevin, in that there are indeed three different recording options including an "economy" mode. They are:

HQ mode (35Mbps VBR) at 1920 x 1080 in 60i, 30p, 24p

HQ mode (35Mbps VBR) at 1280 x 720 in 60p, 30p, 24p

SP mode (25Mbps CBR) at 1440 x 1080 in 60i, 24PsF

Source: Sony's U.S. press conference which I attended yesterday in New York. I've included a snapshot of the specific PowerPoint slide as proof.

No need to feel confused; while the person you spoke with back in July may have answered to the best of his or her abilities, their statement was clearly based on information which either changed or wasn't very accurate to begin with. Sony has since stated clearly that *fast* SxS cards will be an absolute necessity for the EX1.

It makes no sense for this to be true from a technical standpoint, since the recording codec maxes out at 35 Mbps (4+ MB/sec) and this should be easily feasible to record on good standard memory cards. If current "SSD" cards can't sustain that kind of write speed Sony should have asked SanDisk to just modify their best CompactFlash memory to fit an ExpressCard format and be done with it, instead of cooking up a whole new type of memory which costs several times what it should.

As far as the recording modes are concerned, I thought XDCAM had an even lower bandwidth option around 18 Mbps and I don't see that listed for the EX1. I wonder what happened there.

Perhaps it doesn't get used much. I don't think I have ever used that mode on my camera. Sony told us that 18mb was designed to fit satellite and microwave channel bandwidths for ENG. Since the EX is not aimed at ENG use, they may have felt it unnecessary. But the EX gets 720P and the current XDCAM HD full size cameras don't have that. So in my mind, it's a wash.

-gb-

I want to have a camera that is future proof for a few years and that I am not afraid of having to send back to the store for heads to be replaced.
No moving parts!

I love the fact that the Ex has the 1080P format to choose from right from the off.

I also want one cause I want one!!

LOL. I hear you there! It's quite the disease we all have!



One concern I have is noise. Yes, I am a noise freak!
1/2" CCD should help, but at the same time, the CCDs are 1920x1080; therefore the image sensors "may" be smaller than a comparative CCD such as JVC 1/3" 1280x720 CCD. My guess is they are.

Although, I'm excited about 1920x1080 CCDs.

OTOH, I remember the same 1080 excitement during the pre release of the HVX200. We all know the rest of that story....

You mean the actual pixels themselves, that is, the individual photosites; not the entire image sensor.

Yes...





"not enough coffee"

Question: Does the EX's 1080 24p 35 mbs HQ mode record *only* 24 frames per second, or is it once again standard pulldown to 60i? I would really prefer a 24 fps approach ala Canon's 24F HDV mode as it doesn't waste bandwidth on redundant frames and makes 24p editing much easier.

Anyone know the skinny on this?

Hey Barlow, it is indeed native 23.98P when recording 1080 or 720 video in the 35Mbps HQ mode. However there is the "economy" SP mode which is 1440 video, and that's the 24PsF version which is recorded as 60i with 2:3 pulldown. So the answer to your question is, it's both ways -- a straight, native 24P in the high quality mode, and a 2:3 pulldown version in the economy mode. Hope this helps,

It seems "economy" mode is very HDVish. I too was thinking of 18mbps as "economy." There are only 2 data rates though, 35mbps VBR and 25mbps CBR. I just don't think of 25mbps as "economy" but that's just me.

As to SxS at DVExpo East, the person speaking was an official Sony rep speaking under Sony "marching orders." That was made quite clear as there were certain things he REFUSED to talk about. The low cost card compatibility was part of the PowerPoint presentation I believe . . . so clearly something HAS changed.

It may be that testing beefore final release found reliability issues with low cost cards. It may be that Sony felt they should take an "official" position for technical reasons and yet such cards, or certain ones MIGHT (might not) work. Just speculation though.

Do keep in mind that my Sony NTSC DV camera can play PAL DV tapes and that my Sony DSR-11 allegedly plays DVCPro tapes (not through firewire though). Neither of those features are mentioned in any Sony documentation. I also understand that some consumer Sony miniDV cams can play DV tapes recorded in DVCAM mode too.

As to whether there's a change in position or function or both we won't know until someone, I'm sure, does some testing of the low cost "slow" cards and report on that at some point.

Errmm... did I miss out something? My understanding is that XDCAM EX will come with CMOS sensors:

"Offering a networked HD product at an affordable price, the newest XDCAM member, XDCAM EX™ - is a powerful HD handheld camcorder with incredible feature sets that include three ½-inch CMOS sensors, amazing full 1920 x 1080 and 1280 x 720 HD recording capability plus flash memory recording."

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Broadcastan...m_family.shtml

Yes, the EX1 has three CMOS sensors, not CCDs... blame Steven Thomas a second time for not having had enough coffee.

Wow, very cool. Just incredible specs on this cam. Very compelling.

Can't wait to see it in person next week at a local seminar.

Be sure to get your hands on it Barlow and check out the lens... it's the best of both worlds; full manual the way manual was meant to be plus full auto... the focus ring has a pretty cool feature, slide it forward for auto or back for manual... also check out the DOF guage in the viewfinder; lots of really interesting things going on with this camera. I had just a few minutes with it yesterday and there's a lot to take in!

Sure thing, Chris. I'll check out all these things and report back. (manual lens capability is a big, BIG deal to me) I will also see if I can coax the rolling shutter "wobble" out of it and see if it's considerable (HV20) or negligible. (Red?) My hope is that this is something that's at least been improved upon compared to the other Sony CMOS cameras because I personally believe it's an issue not to be taken lightly.

Another speculative question but I wonder why it's not aimed for ENG use. No not DV/DVCAM but at least one XDCAM SD mode?

In my area I see a fair number of stations using the HVX100 as ENG cameras. My guess is they're recording DVCPro50 to P2.

I know there are a fair number of news outlets also using XDCAM and I can only guess many of them would like an XDCAM SD equivalent to the HVX200.

In NYC, NY1 News now has a lot of "1 person" crews using the HVX200 and RNN in Westchester NY also for specific examples.

Could it be Sony is hoping that the EX1 will push news into HD? Just speculation of course.

I'm just saying...
 

One of the things I am stoked about is that ALL imaging uses the full 1920 x 1080 sensor array. Then, for 720p, the images are downrezzed. This COULD result in a high level of sensitivity in recording under low lux in this mode.

The bitmap luminance level of the full 1/2" array, already anticipated to be quite sensitive, can be sampled for the smaller number of pixels contained in the 720 image. This MIGHT mean a higher degree of sensitivity in 720p, a very useful feature.

Just thinking out loud. Not every client or situation needs the very highest resolution. A clean documentation of corporate presenters without the need for additional podium lighting, in eg.

1st of October and Kiwis who havent been to nab,ibc or smpte will finally get to the see the camera, myself included. As much as i dont like mpeg based codecs.. and the lack of sd.. that real lens might sway me. Although from what i've seen it aint going to come in cheap. Couple more k and i could buy a HPX500 body.

Hmmm..
Good point. I have not thought about that possibility. Any more thoughts on this?

"Doomed" is a bit statement. Panasonic has sold an incredible amount of DVCPROHD camera and is entrenched in the broadcast and high-end world. The next move will undoubtedly will be towards AVC-intra for Panasonic but there's a lot more life in DVC yet. (and I don't own DVCPROHD).

"Doomed"
LOL sorry mate, but try tell that to the ABC hre in aus who just spent about $5mil on the P2 format and camera gear.. not to mention NLE's for broadcast..
Not to mention all the other production companies whove been usnig HVX and SDX units as a/b roll cameras for effects, crash cams, principle photography, blah blah...

the EX is a nice camera, but if anyone REALLY understood the diffrences, DVCProHD100 vs 35mbps XDCam EX is a non argument..
They are different beasts, behave differently, have different requirements for different purposes, are capable of different levels in regard to dynamic range... they cannot be compared.. as a codec..

Okay, I guess that was too strong a statement - but expensive memory card formats won't be what makes tape irrelevant. I just heard that the "Red" camera can record 4K raw video on CompactFlash memory cards, so we don't need fancier memory for normal HD content. This goes for both Panasonic and Sony. :-(

Wait, you're not telling the full story here. The RED camera needs the fastest Compact Flash cards that money can buy, only the speediest 300x cards will work, and they start at $200 for 8GB (and that's just for four minutes of recording time). It's not like you can use just any 'ol CF card in a RED.

Look, we went through this nonsense when was P2 first discussed here, and I'm not going to allow a repeat performance because that's not how this message board works. This camera records to Express Card flash memory and that fact is *not* going to change. Therefore it's pointless to argue about it. Please take the shoulda/coulda/woulda arguments elsewhere -- they don't accomplish anything. Thanks in advance for understanding,

I am interested in this cam for several reasons including:

- a real iris control ring. Never liked the thumb wheel type.
- 1/2" sensors
- 35 MB HD format
- Hopefully better glass than what I am currently using.
- real slow/fast motion
- Drag and drop file import from the cam

720P would be my shooting format of choice for output to SD-DVDs. Right now I am studying what type of PC NLE system will work best with real time output to an HD preview monitor w/o breaking the bank. Edius looks promising.

Good point, thanks for clarifying. FYI, the Extreme III cards are $210 for 16 GB on Amazon.com.

Sorry about getting off topic.

This camera appeals to me because it appears to be a tapeless media with some form of archiving besides HDDs.

I'm going to have to hear some real world accounts of how the lens feels and if the "wobble" effects is at play because of the CMOS.

I had my eye on the HPX-500 but I feel P2 has storage workflow issues. Now, this camera arrives, obviously with big differences between it and the 500, but with a workflow that is appealing. My only hesitation is I'm sure that Sony has a step up from the this model in the works. Worst case for me would be to get this model and ultimately use it as a B camera to what ever will be it's big brother.