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Sony Intensive Brief from HD Expo
I attended the HD Expo Sony Intensive on the XDCam EX yesterday and Jody Eldred was one of the speakers. Here is what I remember from the meeting.
According to him, the effective ASA is 800. They double checked it because they couldn't believe it either. He was very impressed with the camera and they showed some footage shot with it where it was strapped behind Patty Wagstaff's cockpit seat in her aerobatic plane. During the shoot, she pulled 10 G's, and the camera never blinked. According to Jody, they shot the EX along with with the XDCam 330 and 350 and according to him, he couldn't tell the difference in the footage. According to one of the Sony techs who is an XDCam expert, it is TRUE 10-bit from the camera head out the SDI. According to the Sony guys, the PDW-U1 XDCam drive WILL eventually support full 1920x1080 archiving. As far as file support in various editors, Sony said they have been in touch with all the major software manufacturers and they all pledged support for the native MP4 files from the EX1. Right now, you have to use the clip browser to unwrap/wrap the files into the MXF format. That's all I remember as I didn't have anything to take notes on. For what it's worth... |
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The fact that it is very close in quality if not in some ways equal to the other XDCAM cameras may bode well for its acceptance as a broadcast worthy camera. And 10 bit out HDSDI sort blows me away. Now I hope someone will make an affordable HD recorder, (Maybe Convergent can up their specs??) that uses 10bit codecs in addition to 8bit. Cheers |
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Cheers G |
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The new device would have to be made with a whole new encoder based on Cineform or a really high profile of mpeg4. |
Panavision
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Link: http://www.panavision.com.au/News/So...e_Recorder.htm |
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This thread presents an issue.
It's making my wait for the camera even harder ! LOL Thanks James, The EX1 sounds like it's going to be real hot. Man, I hope that the full 10 bit out to SDI turns out to be true. If so, This camera is going to open a few more doors. |
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I know the mpeg 2 8 bit limitation. Cineform may be an alternative if they decide to go with 10 bit. Cheers, G |
800 ASA? Really? Just for reference, what was the old PD-170 rated? Or for that matter the F900?
I'm wondering about ASA ratings without gain dialed in and at a "normal" shutter speed like 1/60th because if I recall, I think the F900 was rated somewhere around 320 - 400, so 800 seems like a high number to me. |
That is a really high ISO rating. I hope it is true.
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OK. Educate me on this. 800 ASA or ISO? I know david said
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Thanks. Winston Ashley XDCAM EX is on order! |
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So... yes, that should provide you with plenty of opportunities to get great shots with the EX where the V1 struggles (ie, dimly lit environs). |
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An ASA rating only fixes the first two, so a statement such as "this camera is rated at 800ASA" is, by itself, meaningless. The DSLR analogy is very sound - on my Canon I can make it anything between 100 and 3200ASA. To compare it sensitivity wise to another camera, you need noise level figures at any given ISO rating. All that said, my brief experience with the EX left me feeling that it does indeed perform very well in low light. Far better than any of the current 1/3" cameras. |
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If in your example the Z1 had a S/N of (say) 56dB at -0dB, and the EX had 50dB at -3, you'd have to set the Z1 to +6dB to make relevant comparisons. |
If in your example the Z1 had a S/N of (say) 56dB at -0dB, and the EX had 50dB at -3, you'd have to set the Z1 to +6dB to make relevant comparisons.[/QUOTE]
Interesting comment. Though I really would like to know how you have worked this out. So how can I compare my existing Sony camera (DSR 300) rated at sensitivity of f11 @ 2000lux with a S/N of 62dB with the EX1 rating of f10 @ 2000lux with a S/N of 52dB? Until I've read your comment above I thought that I will have a third of a stop less - but I'm not so sure now. Any feedback would be most welcomed. |
from the horse's mouth...
An ASA rating only fixes the first two, so a statement such as "this camera is rated at 800ASA" is, by itself, meaningless.
It's not meaningless at all. If you shoot 35mm film, the ASA rating tells you how fast the film is, and therefore what light levels are required for the exposure you desire. Jeff Cree and I lit a chip chart with a specific, measurable volume of light, adjusted the iris on the XDCAM EX for correct exposure utilizing a waveform monitor, used no gain, no N.D., frame rate was 23.98P, then measured the light with a Spectra light meter and determined the camera was rated at about 800 ASA. So for me as a D.P., I can light for the XDCAM EX the same as I would 35mm film rated at 800 ASA. If I want to use my light meter for lighting with the XDCAM EX, I can set it for ASA 800 and I'm good to go. For those of use who rarely if ever use a light meter, the value of knowing it's rated at 800 is at the least a guide that tells us, "This camera does not need much light to make properly exposed images." 800 is darn fast, particularly when you know the F900 is below 400 (closer to 320). Shooting at 24P or 60i changes things, but the baseline is indeed useful and meaningful. If I can find my notes and comparisons with the F900R and XDCAM HD F350, I'll share them. |
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But are you sure about the 62dB figure? It sounds somewhat high. In practice, things get much more complicated, since prosumer cameras like the PD150 add processing as the gain is increased to reduce the noise - but at the expense of degrading the picture in other ways. My "quick and dirty" test (in the absence of S/N meters etc) is to take both cameras somewhere pretty dark, open up the irises, and add gain to get correct exposure. Then compare pictures. |
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*IF* the 900 had an inherently much less noisy picture at 0dB setting, such that 9dB (say) could be put in without it being any noisier than the EX at 0dB, that would make it inherently MORE sensitive than the EX, even though it has a lower ASA figure at 0dB. Exactly as with a DSLR, which can have any value from 100-3200 dialled in. How do you define it's sensitivity then? You have to specify the third parameter with electronic cameras to get like for like comparisons. |
True, though if the EX1 is squeezing off 800 ASA at -3dB, I'd bet that it is fairly clean too.
David you are correct for wanting exact signal to noise reference to compare cameras. I'm willing to believe Jody regarding the EX1 sensitivity. By the way, welcome to the board Jody. You're well respected in my book. |
There's not much point in debating in theory how one camera might perform relative to another, we just have to set them up and test. However the 800 rating has been obtained by various DPs whom I believe to be critical reviewers, so until I get hold of one and prove them wrong I don't see much to argue about. Anyone wanting really great low light capabilities will test before buying. Also there is a lot more to a good image than low noise (speaking as someone who remembers Tri-X).
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Thing is though if the camera is at -3dB what the S/N ratio is, is kind of irrelevant in terms of the ASA rating, the same as it is with film. There's nothing you can do about it. Increasing the amount of light means you've either go to iris down or up the shutter speed otherwise you're over exposing.
Now hopefully Sony haven't sacrificed S/N to get a higher sensitivity, that'd really bug me as there's nothing you can do about it. Noisy images in low light from upping the gain are one thing, noisy images in daylight are another matter. |
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Yes David - actually I've checked again and my model is the DSR-300P and it is rated as 60db, The DSR300 is rated as 62db (which I believe is the NTSC version of this camera). It is one hell of a beast when it comes to film in low light and in the past 9 years I very rarely used any lights at all - and when I did, I only used a 20 watt lamp on board powered by the camera itself (for event/wedding filming). Obviously I use gain between +6 and +9 (never more) and one can detect some grain - however the ability to film quickly and unobtrusively without lights and producing a good picture far outweighs the fact that some grain can be detected. Having said that recently I viewed some of my work (SD) on a 40' Panasonic plasma (full HD) via a PS3. The picture was awesome and the upscaling managed to hide most of the grain! |
Will leave the real techie stuff to you guys but with a new camera, much like a new film......theres not a lot of actual test footage floating around the net.
Thinking of the movies that don't get coverage before they are out. Anyone who has seen test footage actually disapointed with the EX1? |
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Not giving S/N figures is analogous to giving someone two different maps without scales. Each is accurate and useful within itself, but useless for comparing RELATIVE distances from one map to the other. Quote:
All this said, my own quick looks at the EX make me feel that it's sensitivity performance is very good indeed, and it substantially outperforms other cameras in this price range. |
David, agree with your technical argument and just suggesting that until we get the camera it's all a bit academic. The 800 figure predicts that we'll find it much better in low light than available HDV cameras, but until we see what Sony has built in for noise suppression and what effects that has on image quality we really are in the dark.
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Well, in a couple weeks there will be a lot more info.
My camera should be in my hands the week of Thanksgiving. At worse, the week after. |
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A "low light camera" with noisy blacks is not a low light camera in my book. Part of the criteria for being called a "good low light camera" necessitates clean blacks; otherwise it's useless in low light (unless you like that look.) Test it for yourself when you can, or believe me and my tests and experiences with it. Or both. Doesn't matter to me! :-) High-end DPs (and even Lucasfilms) LOVE this camera and orders are through the roof. These aren't prosumers or amateurs-- they are top-of-the-foodchain DPs who shoot 35mm film and F900s. They must know something... |
Jody, well said.
Fellow geeks, pull your thumbs out of your backsides. for $6,700 this is a great camera. Really it is!!! |
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The technical argument is one thing, but I'm basing my first impressions not on reading the 800 figure but what I saw at a show. They are first impressions, but do reinforce what everybody else seems to be saying. It does seem far more sensitive than such as a Z1 or HVX200, no argument there. |
Wow, I feel ignorant. What's ASA? It sounds like something from film cameras. I've never seen that listed on any camera's spec sheet until now.
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Am I reading that you are a beta tester for Sony? If so, welcome(If not, welcome anyway!). Unlike Panasonic, Sony does not post here (as far as I remember). I for one would be very interested in your opinions and observations on the EX as well as other Sony offerings. Cheers, G |
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Jody, can you give us the nitty gritty on the EX....
So far all I have heard is good things about the camera... about the only thing I have heard bad about it is small buttons... there's got to be more |
I believe Jody summed up quite a bit about the ASA/noise question.
This is really going to be one heck of a camera. I realize the low light ability is one aspect; although , one very important aspect, especially for myself. knowing that the EX1 appears to offer the higher end image profile, it should have the ability to capture some amazing looking footage. I believe there are quite a few videographers that are "on the fence" with their decision to buy into the EX1. I believe their opinion is probably changing fast. I really believe Sony has stepped up and offered us a portable package that offers highend results. I imagine this was Panasonic's intentions for the HVX200. It should be interesting what rolls out over the next few years. I have a feeling 4:2:2 captured internally to a portable cam is coming in the near future. I would not be surprised if Sony get's there first. The EX1 with 4:2:2 true 10bit SDI, is really going to open a few more doors. I wish the upcoming XDR Flash drive would support 10 bit, but regardless, it should produce some nice stuff. |
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Jody, welcome and thanks for taking the time to post here and share your experiences. Daniel Weber |
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Jody's a true DP while I'm mostly a Producer/Director/Editor who shoots sometimes. On my bigger budget shoots on 16mm/35mm film I always hire a great DoP and a great gaffer. So this is their language and it makes a lot of sense to listen to guys like Jody and I'm glad the camera appears to have this wide latitude for a non-film camera. After all, in digital we can't go a pick a film stock. So far as I know, there's not a lux "basis" on a light meter. And I second Serena, what's the point of using "lux' anyway. It means nothing when your on a shoot. While if you're working with a light meter knowing the ASA is everything. Can't wait to get this camera and push it. Cheers. . |
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