Vegas Pro 8 Workflow
 

If possible, could someone here give a brief description of their Vegas workflow for the EX 1. A current thread regarding 8 bit to 32 bit coversion and colorspace conversions has brought me to the reality that I am just hacking away.


Thanks in advance,
Randy

Yes Randy. It is so simple compared to capturing HDV from tape.

1. Put the SxS card into the express slot
2. Open clip browser
3. Select the clips you want
4. Hit Cntl G and you will be prompted for the directory where your want your media
5. Hit OK and close clip browser. Put SxS card back in camera so you don't forget it.
6. Open Vegas
7. Choose product settings to match what you shot. For best results choose 32 bit color processing
8. In scopes uncheck 7.5 IRE and Studio IRE even though for me I see no difference, Piotr says he does?

As an alternative for using a 10 bit codex which is recommended capture not with clip browser but with Cineform NEO-HD and convert not to .mxf but I think it uses avi if that's what you want.

Hope this was what you were looking for.

Michael

My only reservations about the list, Michael, apply to the last 2 points. Unless doing a lot of compositing where computational precision is important, I don't see any advantage in using 32bit mode all the way through the final render. If I want broader range and/or richer colours, I'd apply the Studio -> Computer RGB conversion.

But I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert here; in fact since the Vegas Pro 8.0 release there has been quite a confusion regarding the true 32bit advantages, and the workflow most suitable to use them - one thing is for sure: 32bit requires considerably longer render times.

Thanks Michael,

I am with you up to step 7. I have just been editing in 8 bit. Do I need to reconvert to 8 bit and a different colorspace at some point before export if 32 bit is chosen?

What benefit are you noticing from Computer RGB? Are you reconverting prior to export?

Piotr: Please explain in detail what you mean by and how to do this conversion? Maybe you mean something different from me. I see nothing on this is the Vegas manual. I know what Glenn says but just how do you do this other than checking the scope boxes?

Michael,

The conversion is someting different to changing the scope settings! It's in fact a video FX; you can access it using Sony CC or Sony CC (Secondary), where - in the presets drop-down list - the two conversions are available (i.e. Computer RGB to Studio RGB, and vice versa).

Also, as an additional note, I have noticed that in my final "Render as" template I must choose explicitely PAL (or Component) as video space in the Advanced Video tab; otherwise the colours are flat in the rendered material (in many templates, Vegas uses NTSC as the default). Of course this is probably only important in the PAL area.

Hi guys,

Can you direct me to some good info on Studio to Computer RGB and 32 bit usage in Vegas.

The difference between 8 bit and 32 bit is so pronounced that my video looks unacceptable (washed out, overexposed, etc) in 8 bit and outstanding (great contrast, correct exposure) in 32 bit. How do I translate that 32 bit look into my final product.

The conversion to computer RGB appears to simply be a preset group of gain, saturation and offset adjustments.

Additionally, I would love to hear what render settings you are using for high quality web export.

I need some serious help in sorting out a decent workflow and in honesty feel quite lost.

Thanks,
Randy

RANDY: In my renders the colors remain just as great as in preview. Maybe its the render settings? I do no color space conversion (And thanks to Piotr I now know what that is) and I am rendering to .m2t using the Main-Concepts HD 1920x1080x24p Vegas preset. Played from the PS3 to the monitor looks exactly the same as playing the time-line to the monitor. When I get the poor washed-out color is if I apply the Computer to Studio conversion so I don't do that.

Thanks Michael,

So if I understand you correctly, you are using the Studio to Computer RGB FX, but are not converting back to Studio RGB before export render. Is that right?

How about you Piotr?

Thanks again!

NO. As I see it, when you import the mxf files from the clip browser they are already in Computer RGB. You can test this because if you apply a studio to computer RGB nothing happens, but if you apply a computer to studio RGB the colors wash out. So I NEVER MAKE A CONVERSION EITHER WAY EVER.

When I apply studio to computer RGB, I get an enourmous change. The picture goes from washed out to contrasty and vivid. Do you think this could be some kind of preset problem?

This is a very interesting topic here and something Ive been wondering how this stuff works. I dont understand much of it but I will show some examples here and ask questions if someone cares to elaborate.

So when I put mfx files to an 8bit timeline they look fine to me and as I expect them to be. When I change the project to 32bit whites get clipped and blacks get crushed. Totally opposite of what Randy sees.

When I apply studio to computer rgb to 8 bit whites get clipped and blacks get crushed as well.

So in 32 bit mode I have to do a computer to studio rgb conversion and the image looks right again.

So is this how you should do it? If you want to work in 32bit you have to apply the computer to studio rgb?

When the images look right you can see in the waveform monitor that
8bit goes up to 100% and 32 bit (with comp to studio rgb applied) goes to about 110%. What does this mean as the image looks the same in both modes?

Sami

Randy: Are you setting your project properties to 32bit and gamma 1 before you inport the files? Maybe this makes your capture look to be studio color space and not computer?

Sami: What you is saying is similar to what I have been reporting in my thread about how to cope with clipped histograms but maybe that was on the Vegas forum.

Okay, so if you switch the pixel properties in the project from 8 bit to 32 bit floating point, are you matching the properties of the clip or are you changing the properties of the project?

In other words, is the added contrast that I see when I change it to 32 bit because that's the way it's "supposed" to look or is it making it that way?

- Ray

If I open an 8 bit project, then I have a very washed out looking preview. Adding the Studio to Computer FX creates great looking video. Alternatively, changing to 32 bit makes for very similar looking and pleasing video. If i go the 32 bit route, it does not seem to matter if I start with a 32 bit project or switch to 32 bits after the files are already on the timeline (both work well).

(Side note: 32 bit and computer RGB applied together are way overdone and look poor.)

Now, if I reconvert to studio or 8 bits at any time, I go right back to washed out video.

So I am thinking that 2 workflows may work for me.

1. Work the entire project in 8 bit with Computer RGB FX and render without switching to studio.

2. Work in 32 bit, edit and adjust, and then switch to 8 bit, and then add the Computer RGB FX prior to render.

Your thoughts and comments are greatly appreciated.

I believe these settings are in Vegas because Vegas doesn't work in YUV as does FCP. YUV has a range of 16 to 234 -- although going up to 108IRE likely pushes the range up to 254. (Never 255.) This is the range you want to STAY in.

I would guess that Computer RGB is good old fashioned 0 to 255.

Studio RGB sounds like a clever way to say "video" RGB. If Sony had used the term "video" they would have had to admit they use RGB not YUV. Which is a good reason to avoid both Premiere and Vegas, IMHO. (RGB should, IMHO, only be used when importing graphics where it is a one-way conversion to YUV.)

What I assume is Studio RGB, is RGB confined to a range from 16 to 234. If I'm correct, you can see how the EX1 VIDEO could be clipped during conversion.

Going from YUV to Computer RGB expands a narrow range of data to a wider range which certainly could wash-out colors.

In other words, either CONVERSION could cause a problem. Worse, because RGB and YUV color-spaces are different -- chroma errors creep in.

All this was well understood a decade ago when the Media 100 provided better images than all other products. The key was YUV in and YUV through and YUV out.

Workflow snag - split clips
 

The original workflow will have an issue with clips split across cards.
This is a real pain if using the card reader. You need to have both parts of the clip available for the clip browser to stitch them back together again.
Best way I can find to get this to work is to offload the clips into the one folder prior to doing the mxf rewrap.
If you don't do this the exporter will complain. You'll get both halves of the clip however Vegas will not stitch them back together again without loosing a few frames.

Hi Ray,
I am unsure on this as well. The broader histogram I am seeing in 32 bit or with the 8 bit conversion to Computer RGB appears closer to what I recall seeing in my EX 1 histogram, and if I had begun by opening a 32 bit Vegas project, I would never have asked this question, because my video looks perfect (for what it is) in 32 bit. I was using 8 bit because the manual makes it sound like that is best for my needs.

I am beginning to consider the conversion to computer RGB function to be "emulate 32 bit in 8 bit".

Sony is suggesting switching to 32 bit for color correction (which is essentially what the Studio to Computer RGB conversion is), but I do not see any noticable benefit to doing so.



From Sony:

"Pixel format
Choose a setting from the drop-down list to indicate whether you want to perform video processing (compositing, scaling, previewing, rendering, and most video plug-ins) using 8-bit or 32-bit, floating-point arithmetic.

The 32-bit floating point setting allows greater precision for processing video, but requires significantly more processing power than working with 8-bit video.

Tips:

32-bit floating point is recommended when working with 10-bit YUV input/output or when using xvYCC/x.v.Color media.

When using 8-bit input/output, the 32-bit floating point setting can prevent banding from compositing that contains fades, feathered edges, or gradients.

Video plug-ins and media generators that do not support floating-point processing are indicated by a blue icon in the Plug-In Manager and Plug-In Chooser with this icon in the Video FX and Media Generators windows.

If you're creating a 32-bit project, you can increase performance during by using the 8-bit setting during editing and switching to 32-bit floating point before performing color correction, compositing adjustments, or rendering.

Compositing gamma
When you choose 32-bit floating point from the Pixel format drop-down list, you can choose a compositing gamma value.

1.000 (Linear)
The default setting when you choose 32-bit floating point from the Pixel format drop-down list.

2.200 (Video)
Processing in 8-bit video is always performed using a setting of 2.200. Choose this setting when you want to ensure maximum compatibility with projects created in previous version of Vegas."

...but the opposite is occuring. Conversion to 32 bit or Computer RGB is increasing contast color saturation etc. It is the 8 bit (default) Studio setting that looks washed out.

The reason Studio to Computer RGB is handled as an FX is that it is simply a grouping of color tweaks which add contast, saturation, offset, gain, levels adjustments, etc. Each is user customizable, and the "conversion" can be applied from differnt preset groups (including CC, CC Secondary, and Levels) with many different options from each.

This group of options seems to be designed to quickly optimize video for output aimed at final viewing on a computer monitor.

This thread has been awesome for me, and personally, after 3 days, I am already digging Vegas more than any other editing system I have used.

Glenn Chan is a frequent contributor on the Vegas forum, and has written a series of articles on Vegas. In particular, you might want to have a look at the "Colorspace" article, as well as "V8 Colorspace" and 8-bit vs. 32-bit.

http://www.glennchan.info/articles/articles.html

Without comment on Mullen's pejorative views and guesses (puh-leaze!), he is correct about the use of the studio vs. computer conversions, they are meant to give an easy preset to-from 0-255 and 16-234, that is, video and pc ire range.

Searching "color space" over in the vegas forum will turn up lots of additional info, again Glenn is most helpful. For example...

HERE is part of what I posted on the Vegas forum:

"After more testing I have found that I can get the Vegas scopes to agree with the EX1 histogram if I use:

** An 8-bit project
** And apply the Computer to studio RGB conversion.

But now I get the washing out that Piotr reported, and to correct it needs the good old "S" curve in CC..... Do I forget the scopes and use 32-bit and computer RGB or do I go 8-bit and use computer RGB or do I go 8 bit Studio RGB and then have to color correct every image from the camera?"

AND so I ask in addition to what was asked above, does this mean the EX1 was made to produce a computer RGB color space and not a studio one, and if so, why?

First of all, both the JVC HD110 and the Sony EX1 use a REC709 color space that includes the equivalent of RGB0-255. This is the spec for YPbPr.....that's what they use, all of the new HD(V) cams.

As Steve so pointedly, if not a bit afrontingly, said, Vegas uses the RGB color space. The 32 bit float option in Vegas is SCS's bandaid attempt to bring Vegas up to date. I've had very little trouble using vegas with either the EX1 or the HD110. It's a question of applying the Levels FX in the appropriate way, if you want to use 32 bit float. If you do a conversion beforehand with Cineform, for example, the CFHD files import into Vegas in the RGB color splace and you don't have this conundrum of what to do. I'm not using the CFHD intermediate, because I'd rather wrangle the colorspaces.

I'm beginning to think that the right course of action is to dump Vegas and move to Edius Broadcast. As Dr. Mullen says, it's in the right native colorspace to begin with.

Bill,
what you're saying is interesting however let's not forget that a camera 'sees' RGB and all display devices display RGB. More cameras are coming along that record RAW sensor data. I'd suggest that Y'CbCr and it's problems may one day be a thing of the past. Perhaps the problem with Vegas is that it's way ahead of its time. It'll be interesting to see how the various NLE's around cope with Sony's xvColor.

Bob,
I could be wrong, but, I don't think the cameras see in RGB. They see in YUV. Actually, the sensor, per se, sees in RGB, but the data it sees is written in YUV....a somewhat lossier version of RGB. Vegas has to transpose this format back to to RGB for its use. I submit this is a problem, no matter how you slice and dice it. FCP and Edius both work in native YUV 4:2:2, Sony is left in the dust of legacy RGB.

All cameras capture as RGB which is immediately converted to YUV. YUV is video. Graphics are RGB.

I'm sorry for the negatives on Vegas. I just feel an $8000-$10000 camcorder demands spending $1000 for software. As I said, this is only my OPINION.

Several years ago I asked the Adobe folks how Premiere handled peaks above 100IRE. They said YUV 235 was mapped to RGB 255 and so the upper 8 to 10-IRE was lost. Since loss of highlights is already a problem with 1/3-inch CCDs -- this seemed too big a compromise. (I've used Premiere from day one and still like it.)

To me -- clipping and color-space conversion issues are things I don't want to worry about.

(These links try hard to explain Vegas: http://glennchan.info/articles/vegas...lorspaces.html and http://glennchan.info/articles/vegas...r/v8color.html )

PS: EX1 and 4.6

4.6. reads EX1 mp4 native files. What a dream! There are 2 workflows, depending how quickly you need to edit.
FASTEST WAY
1. Insert SxS card into Express slot.
2. Open Sony clip browser 1.1, open mp4 files on card.
3. Drag them to Edius 4.6 bin.
4. Done. You're reading off the SxS card.

BEST WAY
1. Insert SxS card into Express slot.
2. Copy the card's entire BPAV folder to your hard drive. (This will take a couple of minutes)
3. Open Sony clip browser 1.1, open mp4 files in downloaded folder
4. Drag them to Edius 4.6 bin
5. Edit!

http://www.canopus.com/products/EDIUSPro/index.php

http://www.canopus.com/canopus/press/whatshot.php

I believe FCP can work in both YUV and RGB. In RGB you can get clipping happening. (By RGB, I mean the values passed between filters; internally, the filters can work in whatever color space they want.)

Legal range for Y' is 16-235 (not 234).

The phrase "studio RGB" occurs frequently in Vegas and strongly suggests that Vegas uses RGB.

Pretty much the majority of image processing is done in R'G'B' color space. If your pipeline is 8-bit, then it can be advantageous to handle Y'CbCr (mistakenly called YUV). Premiere and FCP can do this I believe.

If you are working with 24/32-bit float, then it doesn't really matter quality-wise whether you go with Y'CbCr or R'G'B' (though for other reasons, you would choose R'G'B'). The range and precision of 24/32 floating point numbers is pretty much good enough that you incur negligible loss when converting between color spaces (and you usually have to convert color spaces anyways).

It's actually the opposite that is true.

For 8-bit color spaces:
8-bit Y'CbCr has the largest "volume". Because the volume is large, the bits are spread out thinly (so theoretically you'd have greater banding issues; in practice you rarely ever see this).

8-bit studio RGB has the second largest volume. Some weird illegal values will get clipped (any value with extremely high Y' and non-neutral chroma). Some cameras generate those values.

8-bit computer RGB has the least volume.

So when you convert between these colorspaces, clipping can occur (when going from large volume to smaller volume). Loss of precision will occur.

32-bit color spaces:
You don't really get clipping because 32-bit floating point numbers have a huge range.

Computer RGB is a smaller range.
Neither computer RGB nor studio RGB results in washed-out colors if you handle the color space conversions correctly. (Granted, in Vegas, this is a manual process.)

Y'CbCr ultimately is converted to R'G'B' for display. There are errors in the sense that rounding errors do occur.

From a technical standpoint, you'll get the highest quality from taking all your sources and working with 32-bit float (or 24/64/80 if you want to get academic; higher is better). Those values can be R'G'B' or Y'CbCr (for design reasons, no one is going to choose Y'CbCr).

Any GPU-based system nowadays is going to be working with 24 or 32-bit floating point R'G'B'. (I think that includes Edius.)

1b- Most NLEs actually handle chroma subsampling incorrectly. FCP, Vegas, Premiere are ones I've tested (all handle it incorrectly / not according to the letter of Rec. 709 or 601).

2- From a real world standpoint, you can watch TV (or heck, even the broadcast master) and not figure out which NLE was used to finish. The only exceptions are certain trademark effects/filters or if you are using an old Avid (and you pull that material into a NLE and see all the compression artifacts).

The bit depth stuff mostly doesn't matter, unless you need to do linear light operations.

They now handle processing in Y'CbCr too.

Other than color-space conversion errors -- there's no problem with RGB if your YUV video is limited to 235. With some cameras it is. With the EX1 it isn't. You -- I assume -- do not want the upper 8 IRE clipped-off. Thus, if you use Vegas, you need to do whatever it is you need to do to prevent this.

Something seems odd about your use of the word "volume." We know YUV is 16-235 with option to go up to 254. You say Studio RGB has LESS volume. You also say Computer RGB has even less "volume" than Studio RGB -- yet it has a range of 0 to 255. So what range is less than 0-235(254) yet more than 0-255?

Working with FP is potentially MUCH MUCH slower option. Using it as a solution to the lack of YUV seems a slow way to go.

By the way -- I'd love to see a statement from Adobe that they have switched the internals to YUV. I doubt it.

I'd also love to see statements that describe which and when NLE's use GPUs and that FP is used. Liquid does, but for only very limited FX. Media Composer does not.

Wow Glenn,

That was a very interesting read, even though I must admit that a good deal of it passed over my head.

Some here are saying that conversion (in 8 bit) to Computer RGB is muting their colors. I am seeing just the opposite. I get a wider (more correct to what I noted on camera) histogram, and richer colors (when viewing the vegas preview window on my dual calibrated computer monitors). This appears to emulate 32 bit, which also produces a pleasing result and a similar histogram to the EX1's. Only 8 bit studio RGB looks washed out, with a narrow histogram. Am I missing a setting?

NO, you are not missing anything Randy. Let's straighten this up:

1. the colours are richer, and scopes wider, in 32bit/2.22 gamma, than in 8bit project settings

2. the colours are richer, and scopes wider, after applying the Studio to Computer RGB conversion preset - even in an 8bit project.

If somebody really can see the opposite happenning, please tell us more about their other settings cause this sounds wrong!

Talk about flogging a dead horse!

1) In 32bit FP Vegas does, as part of the process, what is the same as a StudioRGB to ComputerRGB conversion. So of course the scopes will read wider and of course the colours will lift. The scopes may even indicate more serious clipping however you're now in a 32bit FP pipeline and nothing actually gets lost if you apply the reverse transform on the output i.e. ComputerRGB to StudioRGB. The has been documented by Glenn months ago.

2) Of course converting from StudioRGB to ComputerRGB will do what you're seeing. If it didn't, THEN something would be wrong.

The EX1 might push the envelope a bit harder than the HDV cameras so the issue seems a bit more apparent but that's about all.

With the V1E and Vegas 7 (i.e. before the greater camera latitude, and the 32bit FP video processing), everything seemed so straightforward to me!

I haven't used a camera that doesn't record superwhites (factory settings). Most cameras record superwhites. (In my terminology, superwhites are values where Y' is greater than 235.)

The issue is the same in ALL editing programs. Superwhites are illegal.

[quote]Something seems odd about your use of the word "volume." We know YUV is 16-235 with option to go up to 254. You say Studio RGB has LESS volume. You also say Computer RGB has even less "volume" than Studio RGB -- yet it has a range of 0 to 255.[quote]
In studio RGB, legal values fall in the range of 16-235. The values from 0-15 and 236-255 can hold illegal values. So that's why the volume is bigger than computer RGB (legal values go in the range of 0-255; no room for illegal values).

Not if you use GPU acceleration. (Which Vegas doesn't do.) A lot of the high-end systems use GPU acceleration... all the Discreet/Autodesk products, Mistika, etc.

It's in the help somewhere. My demo expired so I can't get at it.

In any case, this stuff doesn't make a difference.
Passing 32-bit float, 8-bit Y'CbCr, or 8-bit (studio) R'G'B' pretty much looks the same in real-world scenarios. It's not like you can view a broadcast master on a broadcast monitor and tell that a Media 100 system was used instead of _____.
(*Granted, it's possible to create situations where you can see a difference with a good monitor and specifically-designed noiseless computer-generated gradients.)

I've changed my work-flow now that I realize you can work in 8-bit and just go to 32-bit before render, and this is what I now do. Tell me if there is any disadvantage in this over being 32-bit all the time.

Ok,this studio to computer RGB,using vegas,how do i do it ?
Thanks,Paul.

Studio to Computer RGB is available from the FX tab in a few FX group locations (Levels, Color Corection, and Secondary Color Correction).

Just drag your chosen Studio to Computer RGB FX onto a given clip or a group of selected clips in the timeline.

Each of the Studio to Computer RGB FX offer a different grouping of controls with which you can modify the stock FX. This will allow you to avoid clipping if any occurs and refine your picture. You will probably want to keep your scopes visible and set them to update automatically to monitor the results of the FX over the duration of your clip(s).

I hope this is helpful.

As boring as this thread has been for some, it has opened up the software for me, and I now see a workable start to finish workflow with this new cam/software combo. Thanks to all!

Something is confusing me here, as I've been using vegas for ages now and have a simple understanding of the studio to computer and vice versa. My understanding is this:

> if your delivering video for computer viewing then you use the 'studio to computer' levels

>if your delivering video for broadcast/tv then you apply the 'computer to studio' levels

if your in studio rgb then your picture may seem washed out because you should be viewing via an external monitor where you will be seeing true values, where as if your working in computer rgb then it will look vivid on your computer but incorrect on an external monitor.

Please someone clarify this for me, i thought that was the standard principle.

The problem I see with Studio RGB and why I stick with computer RGB is that more and more people are watching their TV on computers and LCD TVs. I monitor now by having Vegas hooked by HDMI to a 42" 1080p LCD TV and that is my standard now and for me Studio RGB gives very poor results when applied to the "raw" EX1 footage which looks fantastic on LCD TVs. I think Studio RGB is or should be dead!

For something that is clearly very important, especially for people who are outputting to broadcasters, why is the issue of colour space, rgb vs yuv etc so unclear in vegas? I mean, i may be wrong but im sure other nle users have clear instructions for what they aim to do, yet im now unsure AGAIN what i should be using and when.