Sennheiser MKH416 Problem?
 

Anyone know if there are any issues with a Sennheiser MKH416?

Does the EX1 have a Mic Sensitivity control? Most pro camcorders do. Usually you have options of matching -50dB, -60dB, and -70dB.

The Z1 has a TRIM menu so you can adjust signal input to the camcorder’s input audio circuit and prevent overloading. It can be set to: -18, -12, -6, 0, +6, +12dB. The Z1 is speced to -60dB. What is the EX1 spec?

Remember, the smaller the negative number the greater the voltage output for a given reference sound level.

You look on your mic spec sheet to see what its sensitivity is. For example, if it's -50dB, you set your camcorder to -50dB. It will overload if you set it to -60dB or -70dB. With the Z1, you set the TRIM to -12dB to avoid overload.

Geoff,
just to be very specific. Yes for certain pin 1 carries the return path of the phantom power via the cable's screen. In some of the more esoteric mic cables there can even be an extra wire just for the ground return as well as the shield. This has nothing to do with what we've seen.

It's what happens to the connection between pin 1 and the chassis of the camera that's the point of interest. Connecting pin 1 to the body of the plug and thereby effectively connecting pin 1 to camera chassis stopped the mic working, dead. Changed mic leads to one without that connection, mic works perfectly. Both of those mic leads are perfectly healthy, tested fine, been in use for some time and work just fine with other cameras.

Now some people are having problems and others aren't with the same mic. I'd think taking a look at how the mic leads are wired would be a simple thing to do. Mic leads are pretty unassuming things and are easily overlooked as the key to the puzzle.

The EX1 does have a mic sensitivity control, however it doesn't fix the situation in my experience, unless I turn down the sensitivity so much that I would have to boost the signal extensively in post production for it to reach what I would consider to be normal audio levels, holding between -12 and -6. Even if I do turn it down that much, it can still distort in this odd way, its just slightly less prone to do so.

Hi guys, sorry about your problems... we'll all have you to thank, for bringing all this to light, and to Sony's attention. In the meantime, though, can I interpret from the above, Don, that I'd be safest with a Sony shotgun mic? (I haven't purchased yet)
The other ones that, to my knowledge, no one's complained about, are the Rode NTG-1 and the Sanken CS-1.
But I'll happily go Sony if this would be a problem-free mic.
Cheers, Malcolm

If I can get my hands on a 416, I'll test it on the EX1. But you can add my short shotgun Senn MKH60 to the list of mics that work fine. I set the sensitivity levels in the menu to -29dBu and -35dBu and got very clean audio.

There others on this forum that are using Sony mics without issue but I can't speak from personal experience. Yet. Hopefully I'll get a crack at testing a Sony mic if Sony comes back and says there's nothing they can do to fix things. The audio issue is not the only thing wrong with my particular EX and Gary over at my local Sony repair facility is waiting for all the little bits to come in before I hand him back my camera to get everything done at once.

- Don

Incidentally, the one mic that I have found that works without any issues on my EX1 without issue is the small little dinky shotgun that comes on the HVR-A1U. I am heartened by the fact that someone mentioned the CS-1 working fine though as it is the mic I was looking to upgrade to in the near future anyways.

looking forward to your 416 results Dave :)

Guys,

I have a lot of microphones inlcuding the Senn 416. Whilst I haven't tested it extensively - in the bit I have done I have had no problems. I ALWAYS use a mic isolation mount (lightwave) and mini-blimp (also lightwave) and custom made very high quality (star quad) cables with my audio gear - as I am very fussy with audio. I have also used the AT835 ST quite a bit without problems, the Rode NGT1 just for tests (no issues), but have not tested my Senn ME64 yet.

Revising my earlier level settings
 

I retested my Sennheiser MKH60 short shotgun today in a slightly quieter room and I've had to revise my input level settings. I broke my own rule the other day and trusted my ears instead of my meters.....never a good idea. When I played the clips back on the EX1 and on my Mac laptop, I had the volume up fairly high and the files sounded pretty good. I was recording at around -29dBu or -35dBu. However, when I opened the files in FCS and watched the clips AND the audio meters, I realized those high playback levels made me think that I had good solid levels. They were too low peaking at around -18dBu and -12dBu on FCS's audio meters. They should have been peaking around -12dBu (average) and -6dBu at maximum. That would leave you some headroom for REALLY loud stuff without clipping.

I redid the tests today using much higher input levels and found that -50dBu or -53dBu was much better and I was even able to use the maximum setting of -65dBu without hitting FCS's clipping indicators. Please note that all these tests were run with the external trim controls set to the center setting (5) for all tests. This control (according to Pg. 54 of the manual) gives you +0dBu gain (at "5", or mid-rotation on the dial), +12dBu (at "10" on the dial) or no signal at the "infinity" (bottom) position. Just remember to get your initial levels set with the internal menu TRIM control making sure that the external dials are at mid-position to start with. Then you'll have a full range of fine-tuning adjustment available to you when you start shooting.

However, all these tests brought up another question. Can somebody who is talking to Sony's Service experts find out if there is some sort of limiter built into the external audio inputs? I ran the gains up all the way and COULD hit the red marks on the Sony's input meters but those same files did NOT hit the clip indicators inside of FCS. I didn't try screaming into the mic, but it never clipped when I raised my voice a LOT. Just remember that cranking up the input gains on this (or any) camera will bring up ALL the background sounds. So, if you're recording quiet sounds in a noisy room, you're not going to like the background sound levels. You're also using Sony's mic pre-amps at their full gain and they aren't the quietest pre's out there.

Graeme - - did you like the Rode NTG1? I'm considering it (it's not expensive and the salesman at Trew really recommends it) vs. the more expensive CS-1 (twice as much money, but nice and short). I'd love to know which way to go on this.
Regards, Malcolm

Malcolm,

The NTG1 is a lot of mic for the money. It sounds a lot like the Senn MKH416 (perhaps my favourite mic), but is a lot more sensitive to handling noise - so you will need to get good isolation. I don't mind the CS1 - which is also a great little mic, but I didn't buy it as I thought that it was a bit thin at the bottom end compared to my 416. It is however a very nice compact mic - which is a plus if you want to use it on the camera all of the time. Both have their good and bad points, but the NTG1 probably gives more bang for your buck. However, I don't think that you would go wrong with either mic - just make sure you get a good cable and isolation - the key to better audio performance.

Thanks so much for your reply, Graeme.
Malcolm

I didn't want this thread to die as I think its an important one to keep out there. Just wanted to update people, I ordered an AT875R today and I should have it by Wednesday; hopefully it will work as its supposed to with my EX1 as I was hoping to avoid the cost of the CS-1 which was my other option, other than the NTG-1.

For all those with these shotgun mic issues, just wanted to let people know I got my ATR875 today and it works exactly as it should with the EX1, no audio issues at all. That is, aside from the fact that my channel 2 audio produces subtle but noticeable clicking noises when I adjust the audio level manually, and those clicking noises are recorded to tape. Has anybody else noticed this? Anyways, the main problem I had with this camera is now fixed.

My EX1 is currently in for service at SONY (San Jose). According to the technician, SONY Japan is aware of "clicking" noise when manually adjusting gain while recording. They do not currently have a solution and is "working on it".

Thanks for the info Germaine, that is ridiculous that they don't know how to fix that. When I first got this replacement camera back from them, it didn't have the clicking issue. While I was testing the camera out though to make sure everything works as it should and none of the old problems were there, channel 2 started clicking on me. Luckily thats the channel my wireless or feed from mult boxes runs to so there's not much adjusting of the audio level while people are talking.

AES grounding and shielding
 

This Rane pdf-document discuss the pin-1 XLR problem. Anybody checked if pin 1 is connected to chassis on EX-1?
Here is the link:
http://www.rane.com/pdf/ranenotes/Gr...%20Devices.pdf

I don't have any clicking when adjusting gain, but have another problem: when turning the knobs, the channel is muted in my headphones - it only returns after I stop adjustment.

This also happens with the internal EX1 mic, so it definitely is not connected with the XLR "Pin1 problem".

Anybody experience this?

It would seem to be. With a Rode NT3 connected there is less than 1mV potential between pin 1 and camera chassis. However between pin 2 and pin 1 and pin 3 and pin 1 voltage reads 14V i.e. phantom voltage is 28V under load. That might be too low for some mics.

Bob can I get that in English?

I'll try!
Pin 1 on an XLR is the Shield, that's the copper braid around the two signal line in the cable. It's optional to connect it to the connector's shell which will typically cause that to connect the devices chassis. In the case of the EX1 as the two things are at the same voltage I'd say they are connected in the camera.

The rest is about the phantom power that the camera supplies to the microphone. Nominally it's supposed to be 48V. Most mics are happy enough at way less voltage than that (like 20V) although not all. Some say they need 48V +/- 4V. The EX1 might be compromising the performance of some microphones if it's not capable of supplying enough phantom power. I tend to doubt it myself but todate no one seems to have done any actual measurements. Perhaps someone with more experience with various mics than me can comment on the significance of what I've measured.

I think that a conclusive test on whether the distortions from certain mics are related to the phantom power from EX1 or not coud be comparing results with a mic on its own battery to the same on the camera's phantom power, in the same settings/environment. Of course, viable with mics having this option (like NT-G2).

Anyone willing to perform such test?

Anyone checked the camera with a Sennheiser MKH416?

I haven't been able to get my hands on a '416 yet, Jonathan, but I'll keep trying. Also, here are a few sites to bookmark for anyone who is interested in improving their audio. The first one is hosted by Rycote (free registration), and it's a compendium of mic data where you can select and compare any two mics to each other:
www.microphone-data.com
For example, it shows the ME66 as needing anywhere from 12 to 48v and it draws 2.2mA of power. I compared it to my Senn MKH60 (which worked fine with the EX1) and my mic is 48v only and draws 2 mA. So, based on those similar specs, it would seem to follow that the ME66 "should" work fine. YMMV

Here's another link to a valuable page on the Sound Devices website where they also talk about the power needs for various mic brands:
http://www.sounddevices.com/tech/phantom.htm
These guys build some amazing products. One of my next audio tests will be to use my SD722 recorder and my MP2 as mic pre's and feed the line level output into the Sony to see if I can get a quieter recording out of it. Sony doesn't exactly go out of their way to make quiet mic pre-amps for their camcorders.

Finally, another page worth bookmarking for wiring questions is this one:
http://www.rane.com/note110.html
This page will show you how to wire almost anything to anything and it's a great reference.

FWIW, I tried the ME66 with both the K6 and K6P (the former being battery powered), and in both cases, I still had this distortion problem.

Did you try it both in the "48v" and "Mic" positions? Can you post a clip of the noise?

If I understand this correctly.....
All I might have to do is open up the mic cable connector.....
and solder the ground shield to the neutral pin......
something I did a week ago with another mic when I had a buch of static start to show up.

I want to go with the MKH 416 and ready to order it today but don't have time for delays.

Any thoughts?

I did try it in both positions. I'm not quite sure how to post a clip of audio...

You shouldn't have to solder anything to anything if you have a normal XLR male to XLR female cable.

Ran the MKH Sennheiser 416 for an hour tonight.
Couldn't find anything strange.

Anything specific I should try?

I have had no problems at all with my Senn 416 - it sounds great - as always.

Um.... Yeah.