K6/ME66 distortion problems, but only on EX1 (not on Z1U)??
 

I'm wondering if anybody else has run into this problem: I had a shoot yesterday where I used my normal Z1U shotgun setup (K6 and a ME66 phantom-powered and camera-mounted) to film some kids playing around for a news piece I'm working on. When I get back to review the footage, I hear this really annoying distortion on my shotgun that was never there on the Z1U. Thinking that the shotgun might be broken, I tried plugging it into my Z1U just to double check and it works fine with it, no distortion at all!

The distortion I'm referring to sounds like an electronic buzzing or crackling (not clipping) that goes in and out when the shotgun is either blown by wind, there is a somewhat loud sound nearby, or even if its physically moved to the left and right lightly. I'm 95% sure that the problem is specific to the way the shotgun mic and EX1 are interfacing because I just went in to the office with my old K6/ME66 and told them it was broken and they gave me a replacement, and it does the same thing: works with the Z1U but distorts in this weird way with the EX1. Anyone have any ideas as to how I might fix this? I've tweaked the sensitivity in the sound options menu but that doesn't make a difference.

EDIT: I also have an HVR-A1U as a backup camera. It comes with a dinky little shotgun that works alright. I tried plugging it into my EX1 to see if it was really something wrong with the camera somehow, but the little shotgun from the A1U works fine on the EX1 and does not distort at all, even when I shake it around. So I have no idea why but it seems like my EX1 does not mate well with the ME66...

Sounds like a low-cut filter issue. Try switching the low-cut filter on the ME66 on and see if that improves anything.

There's also a low-cut filter in the EX1 ("Wind Filter")that defaults to off, so try switching that on as well.

Ha! Switching on the low-cut filter on the K6 module fixed it! What I don't get though is, why would it not have to be on when I used it with the Z1U, and now if thats the only way I can use it, aren't I cutting out the lower frequencies? I mean I wasn't crazy about the ME66's sound to begin with (always thought it was lacking in body, especially in all of the bass regions) and now won't it just sound even thinner? Thanks again Eric.

EDIT: Is this problem specific to the ME66 or something? I don't ever recall having to deal with an issue like this after shooting with the Z1U day in and day out for almost two years so I don't see why it would be, but why is it that I have to use the low-cut filter on my EX1 for it to work without distorting? I have been thinking about getting a AT4073a so maybe this will be an excuse to get one, but not if it will have the same issue I'm having right now.

Akira, you're not the only one with this problem - check my posts (and the entire thread) here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....81&postcount=2

BTW, I'd appreciate if you listened to my short sample and tell us if this is the same kind of distortion you're experiencing. It'd help me eliminate the microphone (Edirol CS-50) from the equation.

Piotr, are you using an ME66 as well? Are we the only people that have experienced this? I wonder if its something wrong with our cameras? Or something to do with specific shotgun mics? Any way you cut it I don't see why this is acceptable from Sony's point of view.

The low-cut won't affect speech too much - and you can boost bass in post. Recording with it on prevents the lows from clipping and screwing up the whole audio track. As long as you get a clean recording you can play with it a little later. But technically, yes, it will make the sound thinner.

Maybe a really good windscreen will help you? The furry ones from Rycote? Then you won't have to roll off the lows at much.

I've never used the Z1U but from what I understand it's audio response is nowhere near flat and it rolls off the lows substantially.

So in the Z1U you had a built-in low cut filter. With your other Z1U mic, you probably had a low cut built in. Only the EX1/ME66 combo did not have low-cut happening somewhere in the chain.

Hmm so its normal to shoot all the time with the low-cut filter on? I was under the impression (having never used it before on my Z1U) that it was only for specific situations, such as very windy shoots.

I assume then that I would also have to use the low-cut on the AT4073a, if I were to get one?

No, I'm using the Edirol CS-50 (which worked great with the V1E, but not with the EX1), or the Sony ECM-763. Interestingly, the latter does NOT distort at all...

It doesn't distort with the low-cut filter off? Or do you have to turn it on as well?

It never distorts - I only use the high-pass filter when the wind is really strong; normally I record the full bandwitdth. Even if there is some wind rumble, there is no additional "clicks" to it as with the Edirol.

Guys, I don't have this camera but I might guess at the problem.

My PD-170 has a problem with distortion and it is because the pre-amp gets overloaded as it is set to handle lower quality mics.

When I plug the same pro mics into my DVC-200, the audio is as it should be, crystal clear.

I don't think a camera should force you to turn on a low-cut setting on a mic, especially a $6,500 camera.

Is there an attenuator setting for the mic input?

Maybe you could adjust for the hotter signal?

I would like to know about this issue as this camera is on a short list to possibly purchase and audio is very important.

Tim,

The audio quality of the EX1 is known to be very good. I don't think the camera is causing these issues, but wind noise that is not being properly filtered.

Akira:

What kind of wind noise protection are using on the ME-66? I always found them pretty crispy anyway, but especially bad without a strong windscreen like the Rycote Softie.

If you're just using the base foam windscreen, I'd put something stronger on the mike, regardless of audio filtering.

Right now I'm just using the stock windscreen, though the amount of physical movement that it takes to make the ME66 (without the low-cut filter on) distort is really very little, not enough to really make wind and air movement a significant factor in my mind. I'm going to do some more experimenting with it today to see if a bunch of stuff wrapped around the mic might prevent the distortion I'm hearing and thereby indicate that it is in fact a wind issue. In the meantime, I just got back from a shoot with the ME66 with the low-cut filter on, gonna see how well the sound can be fattened up in post...

There is something very fishy going on. I think this problem has nothing to do with wind, as I can literally just tap the back of the shotgun microphone and I can hear the weird distortion. If I plug in the short shotgun from my HVR-A1U, I can tap it all over almost as hard as I want and I don't hear any of the distortion I'm hearing through the ME66.

One thought, could it be that the EX1 phantom power is running out of steam when the mic is trying to drive low frequencies into the camera's low impedance inputs. Looking at the problem file Piotr sent me the LF signal didn't look like typical digital clipping.

Tapping is the ultimate low-frequency sound - you could be creating sound energy below 1Hz by tapping.

Not to say that there isn't something else going on, but tapping and wind are both good ways to get a lot of powerful low frequencies into a mic.

And those low frequencies can be filtered out either in the mic or somewhere in the chain after that. And if they are not filtered they can easily clip.

But I also find it hard to believe that the phantom power of the EX1 is being tapped out. The power involved in running a mic is tiny even at the highest sound pressure levels.

Hi Guys,

I run a ME66 on my EX1 without any problems at all, including wedding wedding receptions with bands and loud DJ's.

I leave the low cut filter OFF on the mic, and find if I'm outside the 'dead cat' and the low cut filter on the camera are enough to fix wind problems.

No distortion problems here.

Cheers Vaughan

Yesterday we tested this with an ME66 and my EX. First test was with phantom power on and no battery in the mic. Lots of crackling/grounding issues when touching/tapping the mic or mic cable.

Then we turned off phantom power and put a new battery in the ME66. No change.

- Don

I've got the K6/ME66 and have had no problems with it. I also accidently left the cam supplying power to the mic for a good few hours whilst filming,again,no problems.

Also nether the low frequency filter nor the EX1 built in wind filter work aswell as a rycote softie/deadcat/windsock.
Imagine me doing this,mic plugged in to cam with long xlr lead,headphones on so i can hear the wind,waving mic around,(what must the neighbours have been thinking). Deadcat is definatly best,no wind bass gets through but still pics up the bass from my voice.I felt that the filters and low pass switch made the sound a tiny bit tiny.
It's easier to slide a softie on and off instead of trying to flick the switch across with the end of a ballpoint pen or something or going into the EX menu to activate the filter.

Paul.

Looks like we've got the same problem Don. I'm gonna call Sony today to see if they're aware of it and might know whats going on.

Sony rep in Teaneck has no idea what it could be, he's sending me a Fedex label to ship it to San Jose, where they will (hopefully) fix the vignetting issue on my camera (serial number 101647) and address this audio problem as well.

You also might want to let your Sony rep know that we tested my Audio Technica mic AT4073a on another EX at the broadcast supply house and it had the exact same audio issues.

We live about 15 min. away from the Sony repair facility so hopefully they'll test my EX, order any parts and then give me back my camera until the parts arrive.

- Don

Please let me know what your local Sony service center says, as it would appear that we both have the same defect. Now its back to my Z1U for a week or so...urgh. At least I'll get the vignetting issue fixed (hopefully) while my cameras out there, as it has that problem as well.

Yes, I will but I won't be phoning Sony now until next week. I still need this camera in my possession until the middle of April. Then we're away for a week shooting with a different camera. Hopefully they'll get the EX fixed while we're gone.

- Don

Here is one example of what my audio waveforms from my ME66 look like when its distorting. In this case yes, it was a little windy out, but still this waveform pattern seems very unusual to me. What're you looking at is only about 3 seconds of audio, for scale.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2.../Picture22.png

It's hard to tell but there seems to be some very low frequencies in there. Can you post a couple of seconds of that, just as uncompressed audio. I or others could have a look at it in something like Sound Forge.

Hopefully this is the right thread for this post. At least my issue list starts off with the audio problem some of us are experiencing. I just dropped my EX off at Sony Repair. They'll have it all next week because I'm flying to another location on Friday to do a shoot with another one of my cameras. The repair facility is only 20 min. away from my doorstep and I talked briefly with the technician to explain all the issues, which were given as written below to Sony Repair. I'll get the camera back on the morning of April 21st.

- Don

PMW EX1 serial # 100569

Issues:

1) accessory microphone grounding issue: audio crackles, etc. when touching/moving XLR cable. Also tested with a Sennheiser ME66 and a Rhode mic and both resulted in the same issue. I have left my Audio-Technica mic (AT4073a) on the camera for your testing purposes.

2) lens vignetting starting at around 70% zoom with OIS activated. Vignetting continues out to 100% zoom.

3) back focus was off from the factory but became much better after I ran the in-camera back focus routine using test charts. The back focus still seems to be soft however, when the camera's internal ND filters are activated.

4) one instance of the iris ring becoming locked even though the iris was set to full manual mode. Only by turning off the camera then turning it on again did the problem go away. At the same time this happened the zoom display in the LCD screen was showing only a partial zoom out even though the zoom ring was fully zoomed out to 14x. This has only happened once. I did not have the camera set to full auto mode, because as soon as I discovered the locked iris I checked to make sure the full auto button was not on. Zoom ring was set to manual.

5) a pulsing or vibrating recorded picture that did not rectify itself until the camera was turned off and then on again. The best way to describe the phenomenon is like there was a distorting heat wave in front of the object I was focused on. This has only happened once.

All the above issues (for me) have been experienced while using the same recording mode: 35 VBR HQ 1080p 30. These issues are also not isolated to this one camera but are widespread throughout the EX line, according to several EX owners I have talked to online. It has been suggested to me that perhaps a firmware upgrade could help with some of these issues.

Good Lord, Don! I'm amazed you aren't burning the darn thing in effigy on Sony's front lawn! I'm hoping to buy an EX1 in the next week or so, but your list of problems REALLY has me nervous. Please keep us posted.

Yeah, the atmosphere at Sony's quality control must be just terrible, this is happening with too many new models.
Cheers.

Well, what keeps me motivated about this camera is that there's nothing else in its price range that even remotely comes close to the picture quality and feature set that the EX1 offers, regardless of whether it's a handheld or a shoulder mount. Nothing. Even the new PDW-700 doesn't have 24p or variable frame rate recording (there's no CineAlta label on it). And it's listed at just under 29 grand. If Sony can get a handle on these EX issues then I'll be getting a second one when it's time.

There are EX cameras in the hands of users that don't have any issues at all, so we all know that everything can be fixed, adjusted or have parts replaced to make a problem free camera. All of the issues I've mentioned have been experienced first hand, but it's because of forums like DVinfo.net that prompts us to check for issues that we may NOT have personally experienced. If someone uses their EX with just the built-in mic they may not know about a possible aux. mic grounding issue. Another really good example is back focus. I initially thought that my back focus was good because when I zoomed back out the peaking was everywhere in the picture, denoting a sharp focus. This was not the case. If I hadn't read about "not trusting your peaking without a closer look" from others I'd still be shooting wide shots that were softer than they should be. Who buys a new camera and thinks that the on-board "good-enough-for-critical-focus" LCD flip out screen is lying to them while it shows peaking everywhere? Thankfully there ARE a few smart enough to check for themselves.

The saga continues.

- Don

Excellent points, Don. That brings me to another question. I don't have much of a history with Sony camcorders and I was wondering if this model's introduction is typical of the Sony line. By that I mean have previous models come to market with as many issues or similar issues and was Sony always able to correct them?

I know that given the complexity of modern cameras (still or video), most manufacturers will sometimes push them out the door to meet target deadlines. At the same time, they are probably hard at work on the first firmware update to fix the issues they couldn't solve in time to meet their ship dates. There always seems to be a firmware release coming to tweak or modify different operational parameters. However, some of the problems we are seeing with the EX1 appear to be mechanical (backfocus, Chromatic Abberation, uneven focus across the image plane, vignetting, audio grounding, e.g.) which usually are a result of poor assembly or design.

If I was sure that ALL these issues could be cured with firmware, I'd have NO hesitation at all about buying one now. It doesn't make me happy to feel like a Guinea Pig by having to beta test these darn thing in the field, but I understand the realities of putting out a high-tech camera in the short R&D cycles that manufacturers seem to find themselves in now. I'm coming into the video world after spending most of my life in commercial still photography and photojournalism. I'd hate to be a manufacturer today. For example, Nikon could put out a camera like the F, F2 or F3 (granted....nowhere NEAR the complexity of an EX1) and the model would stay in production with few modifications for 10 years! These days, if you are Canon, Panasonic, et al, you'd better have the "next great thing" ready to go within a year or you're SOL. So, am I being overly critical or should I wait for the "EX1 Mk2"? ;)

Dave,
I think the problem is that we expect a HD camera at the same pricepoint as a SD camera and with the same ease of use. I'm not heavily into still photography but I get the feeling that moving up from a 35mm SLR to a large format still camera carried a significant increase in costs and you'd loose some of the hand holding features of the 35mm SLRs.

You have an interesting point, Bob. I also want to apologize to the thread starter because I've threadcrapped here VERY badly. My apologies to all, actually. You are right about the move to LF cameras, althogh I NEVER have to worry about battery power or backfocus....just prime focus and Scheimpflug rules!! When I was teaching photography, I wanted to start my students with a 4x5 and let them "graduate" to 35mm. You can't understand your craft without a solid foundation and video is no different.

I can only speak to the limited knowledge of my own experience with video cameras. Among other things I own a Sony PD170 and from what I can recall the first run or so of these had an audio issue that was resolved by a trip to the repair depot for a new something-or-other. Anyway, subsequent 170's were for the most part problem free. The one I have has never given me a lick of grief. I also have a Canon GL2 (retired but still in like-new condition) and a Canon XL2. Not one issue with either of them. I used to own a Canon XL1s and I hated the picture it recorded and put it up for sale. There was never anything really wrong with it either as far as things going wrong. I just hated what happened to the footage in less than perfect lighting.

My EX is by far the most troublesome and glitchy camera I've owned but it's all (I'm assuming) fixable and once fixed I'm sure will perform reliably.

I don't think you're being overly critical at all, considering the numerous bugs some EX cameras are afflicted with. I'm sure that these problems will be dealt with in subsequent runs of the camera. Sony is banking on selling a lot of these and it's not going to help if they can't sort things out in short order.

Before I dropped my EX off yesterday at Sony repair I had still shot a lot of footage even with the issues. I just learned to shoot around them. The wonderful picture quality, under and overcrank, and that fast tapeless workflow kept me coming back.

You'll have to make your own choice about buying now or waiting until you're 100% sure you can get a camera without issues.

- Don

Problem could be the mic lead.
 

We had a client with a V1 today complain that the mic lead we'd given him was faulty. Tested fine with a cable tester and yet using it between the V1P and the on camera mic no sound. Tried another mic lead and it worked just fine.
Long story short. The problem was resolved to be using mic leads that connect the shield to ground. Don't know if this has any bearing on the EX1 or not. However we've been using the same mix of mic leads for years with Sony cameras and none ever cared if the shield was or wasn't connected to ground.

Something has changed in the way Sony do their balanced audio inputs / phantom power with the V1. It's not hard to imagine the same design change has been made in the EX1. Certainly it's worth testing to see if this is an explaination for some having issues and others not with the same mics. Who would have thought the mic lead could be a factor.

Three points:

1) In a phantom powered microphone circuit the screen connection must be made to complete the dc powering to the microphone: XLR Pins 2 and 3 cary the audio signal and the positive dc supply, Pin 1 connects to the cable shield and carries the negative dc return.

2) Cliping of the signal could be caused if the output level of the microphone exceeds the maximum permited input level to the mic preamplifier within the camera. If you have to set the mic gain control to a low level for normal recording peak signal display then the chances are that you are exceeding the maximum input level and no adjustment to recording gain will rectify the problem. If this is the case you should either reduce the microphone level sensitivity within the camera's menu or insert an external attenuator between the microphone and camera input.

I suspect that the microphone is overloading the input and a lower sensitivity will remidy the problem.

3) The foam windshields normally provided with microphones are totally inadequate in windy, outdoor situations - they're really no more than a vocal pop shield. A furry wind gag such as those made by Rycote or Rode is way to go.

Update: Our local Sony repair facility has contacted their head office and has advised them about the 3rd party mic issues I'm having with my EX. The Sony head office is investigating and the local folks are waiting for a reply. So far nothing has changed, as I'm still experiencing crackling/grounding issues whenever I touch the mic or the XLR cable even slightly. I have to keep the mic's low frequency switch in the off position at all times, otherwise I wouldn't be able to use the mic at all.

- Don

Don, this may not be the best news for you, but here's my situation. I sent my camera a month ago to the Sony service center in San Jose. The manager there, while helpful, couldn't get a reply from the folks in Japan about what the possible source of this audio issue could be. Ultimately, he ended up sending me a replacement camera, and guess what? The new camera has the same audio problem with my ME66. Thats not all. My original camera obviously had this problem, but so does my co-workers, which is also brand new. So thats three total cameras so far (my old one, my new one, and my co-workers), every single EX1 I have seen, that has this audio problem.

This seems ridiculous to me, but this leads me to think that for some reason it must be an issue between the mic and the camera, so maybe another shotgun mic will interface with my EX1 just fine? I think I'm going to get a new one soon to find out.

Yes, and this makes 5 cameras now. Your 3 and mine plus another new EX I tried my mic on at the broadcast supply place where I originally purchaced. This is a global problem with the camera and I hope Sony comes up with a fix, and soon. There's no excuse for a camera like this not being able to utilize high end mics without the Sony name on them.

If they can't come up with something soon I'm going to ask them for a Sony mic comparable to my AT4073a and allow me to use that until they DO have a fix.

- Don

This is weird. My Senn MKH60 works fine with the EX1. So does my Schoeps MK4 and I ran some tests today with my Senn Evolution G2 wireless mics and no problems. The only thing I haven't run into it is an old SM57 dynamic mic but that's next. Maybe I got lucky.