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Personally I don't think it's that big a deal. Back in November if the EX3 had been available when I got my EX1 I probably would have gone for that instead, but it wasn't and I needed a camera there and then.
When the EX3 comes out I'll definitely look forward to getting my hands on one, at that point I'll decide if I want to invest another £2.5k - £3k in one (after selling the EX1). If they prove to be free from the lens issues that my EX1 still suffers from then I might change, if not then I probably wont. Yes, it is a bitch when upgrades are announced after you purchase, but it's just the way things go, In November all the 1 yr old EX1 users will be rushing to change to an EX5 and the Ex3 owners will be the ones wishing they'd waited.... it's just the way technology is. Paul. |
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Was it A) To be a nice surprise for nab? B) Because they wanted as many as possible to buy the EX-1 and wouldnt have a chance to wait for the EX-3 Which most will consider an improvement on the EX-1. Therefore an upgrade and the upshot is some people would buy twice? c) Technology was not available and the february article showing the EX-3 Hard drive etc was not real. d) Sony works in mysterious ways and whatever it is they are right? e)Its the start of their financial year? |
The EX-3 is not by any means a replacement for the EX1. Different form factors, different lens options, considerably different price points. It's like saying the the old XL1 was a replacement for the GL1. Two completely different cameras with different target markets.
The only difference here is that Sony released the fixed lens version first. So when the EX5 comes out and costs $20,000, will you still be angry that you bought an EX1 when a "better" camera was "just around the corner"? |
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I've got as much reason as anyone to feel let down by Sony over some of the EX1's design flaws and the way the support channels have failed to help, but you really can't blame them for saving the announcement of their latest cameras for NAB. |
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It is very very frustrating when u lump £4000 odd hard earned pounds into an invstment only to realise a better model has come out so soon, Its a large investment and to think cameras are treated like mobile phones or sneakers, basically not as trendy in a few months time. Maybe thats why NAB is held in Las Vegas, buying gear has become a gamble... |
Come on... Do you really think that, Panasonic, Canon, Sony, or whomever, should publish their plans and possible release schedule on DVINFO first? Let's be real.
The EX3 takes nothing away from the EX1. Not one thing. And it delivers the same footage out of the box. Why the commotion? Everyone that bought the EX1 bought it for a reason, weighed the pro's and (possible) cons and decided to buy it. If you really needed different or interchangeable lenses or genlock or timecode, or a semi-shoulder mount then you either compromised or bought the wrong camera. My guess is that most EX1 owners did not need these things. Any piece of glas you mount on the EX3 will set you back a bunch. Good lenses are more then twice the price of an EX1. Any 35mm adapter that may someday bajonet onto it will be expensive compared to the current lineup. And it may not even diliver better images. Most of this seems to be about 'feeling' short changed, but your EX1 can't be that old, it is still a desirable camera, so why not trade up? If you need to. George/ |
Well I've never been a Sony fan. It really pained me to have to go Sony with the EX1 - I've had far too many bad experiences with far too many of their products in the past. It seems to me that they sell products at a high price based on "style over substance" with the public being used as guinea pigs for their R&D department.
The camera's flaws annoy the hell out of me. Really stupid "mistakes" that would have taken so little to get right go hand-in-hand with some really nice features that show someone somewhere really thought things through. It's almost schizophrenic in nature. Would I like an EX3 in preference? You betcha (although shoving the Assign 4 button and those other buttons in the same inaccessible place still bugs me). Which, when you think about it, says how happy I am with the EX1 despite my history with Sony and the flaws in the EX1 (because if my experience had been all negative I wouldn't buy another camera from Sony again). I'm lucky in that I've gone so far over budget with the EX1 and all the bits and pieces needed to support it that "upgrading" to an EX3 just isn't a possibility for me (although this time next year if there's an EX5 I may well be tempted) but even if it were I don't think I could be that mad at Sony about the EX3. It was a risk I took on board when I bought the EX1 and if I wasn't happy taking those risks I shouldn't have bought it. |
Yes, I'm having a hard time understanding how anyone could feel short-changed with the EX1. Think about it, it is still the same exact performace straight out of the box as the next newer model up which is double the cost. And it is still comparable to the F350 and even the F900 but with even better low light.
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If Sony had released an EX1a that fixed the flaws a lot of us have been dealing with then I would have been at the front of the group of angry villagers with my pitch fork. This is a more expensive camera that for all we know could suffer the exact same issues as the EX1, although I'd be shocked if Sony made that mistake again!
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The EX-3 is not by any means a replacement for the EX1.
------------------------------- I disagree and is why many are now selling their EX-1s to buy the upgrade. ------------------------- Different form factors, -------------------------------- Not really just a semi shoulder mount. -------------------------------- different lens options, ------------------------------ The ability to remove the lens was one option that appealed to most of the EX-1 Target market ------------------------------------- considerably different price points. --------------------------------- No its not only £1500 difference in the UK ------------------------------------- It's like saying the the old XL1 was a replacement for the GL1. Two completely different cameras with different target markets. The only difference here is that Sony released the fixed lens version first. --------------------------------------- Yes just a coincidence ----------------------------------------- So when the EX5 comes out and costs $20,000, will you still be angry that you bought an EX1 when a "better" camera was "just around the corner ------------------------------------------ Im not angry Im annoyed. You can try to twist this anyway you want but the truth is This is a replacement for a camera after less than four months old that was kept secret much earlier denying people a choice and getting many to buy twice. which is exactly what is happening Many here are stating they will replace their EX-1 with the EX-3 THAT is what you would call replacing and makes it a replacement camera. |
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Before I join the argument, I need to ask one essential question.
Did Sony fix the rolling shutter issues on the EX3? I have yet to see anyone post a comment on this issue and yet it seems to be the most significant flaw in the EX1. Personally I could care less about what button was where or why it was hard to push ... those things I’ll learn to deal with. But the fact that the rolling shutter had such a hard time with rapid flashes was really a problem for me. My company services the pyrotechnic industry and their fore rapid flashes are what my footage is all about. Having the rolling shutter issue made the EX1 totally useless to me ... even though I loved everything else about it. Even with all the advancements over my ole Z1U if the EX3 suffers the same rolling shutter issue than the EX3 is just as useless to me. Now on the other hand, if the rolling shutter issues have been fixed ... than the EX3 is the freaking greatest thing since sliced bread! Anyone know if Sony solved that problem with the EX3? |
I actually tend to think that Sony's decision had more to do with the Cinealta division's own excitement over the new 1/2" CMOS tech than the market excitement. They were given a project to make a camera with it and holy crap it worked phenomenally, which motivated them to build upon it. For people involved in the forefront of creation, their biggest concerns when it has to do with timing is, is it really ready? finally not going to change much by the time it is released? They didn't announce the EX1 any sooner in the process.
Also I think the timing may be more of a method for them to illustrate a reflection of their excitement. There is pride behind the people that create, and it is most likely that waiting for a moment like NAB to reflect their excitement was a long hard wait for them as well. |
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Not challenging your right to vent (and it appears most of that is coming from the UK...). It's just rather a waste of bandwidth... and no doubt when the moderators return from checking out the new toys and enjoying LV, this thread will magically disappear, as it's a bit out of character for DVi... 1500GBP = 3000 USD = SEVERAL THOUSAND DOLLAR PRICE DIFFERENCE, I believe roughly 50% more in USD, maybe less in the UK, that's a different price point if I ever saw one. If I'm shopping for a camera with a $5K budget, I'm not looking at $7500 cameras... Sony has released a new camera, I'm not defending their choice to do so, they can do business as they wish, and if they release products that meet the needs out there, they will continue to do business. I'm just glad that they create good usable products. If someone else has a "better" product and I can swing it, I'll gladly buy that, so should you <wink>! I fully expect that because of product release and marketing considerations, the camera I just bought (or the computer or TV or whatever) a couple months ago will be replaced with an "upgraded" model in less than a year (or at least one will be announced - I'm actually watching carefully for just such an announcement right now, that may cause me to drop two cams I just bought for something else... but I knew that was a possibility - I've got one other I wish there was a replacement in the works, but it didn't do well in the market, so may not be in line for replacement). Just about all my shiny "new stuff" is obsolete, but I tend to find it better to enjoy it than worry too terribly much about the next big thing coming down the pipe... Sure it's a bugger to buy something only to find "something better" (or worse yet they just dropped the price...), but not sure it's anything to get riled up over, really... if that doesn't make sense to you, well, that's perfectly fine too. 'nuf said. |
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There is no secret conspiracy. This is just cam 2 in the EX line. It has some more industry features, that won't be that interesting for the EX1 target market of single camera shootists. I doubt very many EX1 owners would have gone for the EX3. I'm sure there are some that would liked to have the option of interchangable lenses or would have liked timecode, or the semi-shoulder mount but even some of those would rather have put that $3k extra towards SxS cards or a good rig. Now I'm not speaking for anyone but myself and I'm sure there are a few that could and would have gone with an EX3, and they still can. In three months or so. The EX1 was announced a year ago as the first of a new series. After the first models, you don't take another year to follow it up with a model aimed at the higher end... And if Sony was out to get you they would have started with the higher priced EX3 model and then intruduced the EX1, 9 months later. See how "you" (not you, Mark just anyone) liked to have payed 13k only nine months ago "and now they're bringing out a unit for 8k that delivers the same footage, just lacks some of those features I never needed anyway!". Come on... Could they ever have gotten it right? George/ P.S. My confrontational style of writing is not intended to offend anyone. I really just can't help being outspoken. |
...exactly!
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You know, good things may come of this for all of us. We may finaly get to know if some of the issues are with the lens, the sensors or the firmware. All we needed was the EX3!
Much better to get Sony to fix the issues with existing EX1's than to mull over what could have been. Also, EX1's will be harder to get as Sony by it's own admission has a hard time keeping up with demand for the EX-es and the 3 uses alot of the same components. That ensures a good fair market value should you trade in an EX1. See, its all positive :) George/ P.S. Mark, very often introductions start at the higer end to capitalize and then features 'trickle' down to the common man, like me. |
On the topic of Sony hiding the goods ...
(Please pardon the random nature of these comments, I’m about to go into a rant!) I always want one feature or another in my equipment and fortunately Sony is very good at finding what people want and then building that into their products. Every time I ever use a camera I say "I wish this camera had ..." and the next version of camera has that feature! It's great! So before you gripe, just be happy for what you have ... your EX1 is better than my Z1U! But regardless of the technical advancements there are creative minds that could run circles around both of us with a VX1000! Having the newest piece of equipment doesn’t make you good ... being good makes you good ... so use your EX1 to make something good! Yea yea, so maybe you would have paid the extra cash for an EX3 so you could have the interchangeable lens ... but would you have really used that feature? You do realize that a good 1/2" or prime lens is going to cost twice as much as the camera right? So if you have that kind of money to be buying those lenses than why are you complaining about having to buy the EX3? And if you want to talk price points ... look at your batteries ... they cost what? About $100 bucks each? Upgrade to a full size camera and you can pay $600 for your batteries and your lens (which won’t come with the body) will cost you another $12,000! These small cameras are the bee’s knees in whatever configuration! When I started my interest in media I was using single chip VHS-C cameras and editing on a 486 PC or a linear system! (Yea I know, if you’re older than me you where carving you video on stone tablets one frame at time!) That was 10-12 years ago and now we have all this awesome HD technology and stock laptops that can render 20 layers of HD video in real time ... and we can all give George Lucas a run for his money for under $15,000! That is of course, assuming that we learn how to actually use our equipment and not just complain about it or show it off. |
Since I like to distill things . . .
What it comes down to is if both the EX1 and EX3 had been available (or at least announced) at the same time, some number of people would gladly have spent a few more grand for the EX3. IMHO they are priced far enough apart that one has to consider whether one wants to pay a few more grand for the option to have interchangeable lenses . . . and then a few more grand to get those lenses. Alas only those CURRENTLY considering the two have that option. Those who bought the EX1 will now have to consider whether it's worth it to sell their EX1 and get the EX3. I think one problem that is peeving some is that some bought the EX1 many months ago but are FIRST getting a working version back from the Sony shop now. They've had no chance to do some business to cover some of the lose in value on the sale of the slightly used camera. I do NOT think one can call the EX3 a replacement of the EX1. It's not like with Panasonic where they went from DVX100 to DVX100a and then a longer pause, DVX100b. Those all seemed to be fixes for issues. Maybe I'm psychic or something but it seemed obvious to me at the time the EX1 was announced that an interchangeable lens with shoulder mount ability would be announced by NAB. It seemed plain as day to me that Sony would want BOTH options on the market ASAP. I posted as much on some threads. It seems this was less obvious to others though. I think the whole thing was even more obvious when Sony had both the Z7 and Z270 hitting the market. I'll say it real LOUDLY (although Sony won't) but I wouldn't be surprised if you see either and/or MPEG2 4:2:2 or 2/3" chip (think competition with Panasonic and Scarlet) by next NAB in the EX series. Will you be kicking yourself if you get the EX3 in August or September when 3 to 5 months later the EX5 is announced and delivered? |
I don't think losing this thread would be a bad thing at all, getting to be a real waste of bandwidth.
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While I wouldn't want to lose it I think it's time for Chris to lock it.
It is an argument worth having but at this point all the "points" have been played. |
I believe that waiting for NAB was simply a way to best reflect Cinealta's excitement of the product.
The most important point that everyone needs to keep in mind is that when the EX1 was announced, it *was* specifically announced as just the first of a new line. That indicates that we should anticipate incremental improvement. They didn't have to tell us that. |
I agree Mike.
As to marketing, if one is coming out with an entire new line, the spacing is going to be VERY TIGHT. That's why I wouldn't be surprised if a third camera EX camera is announced within months. Just as there's the F335 and F355, the third EX camera may be the equivalent of the PDW-700. If SxS XDCAM is going to be competitive to P2 DVCProHD it's all got to get out there FAST. Sony probably wants to match the P2 series from bottom to top. Quote:
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But is the EX A new line? Whats new about it? from the XDCAMS? Its price portabilty and fixed lens? I disgree this is a new line The EX1 was the baby brother to the XDCAM Range. This new EX-3 is simply a better version of the EX-1 giving EX-1 users who are a new market for sony a better version of a product they wanted for years. Previously denied in favour of keeping the pro stuff for their pro lineup but with the advent of the RED upping the ante have given up a part to the indie community. My feeling is before commiting anything else to this errr range they will wait and see what Red and the market does next. One thing that is coming is a new improved XDCAM range that supercedes the EX Cameras. The next thing is if Jim Jannard doesnt succeed then Support for the EX cameras will go. My feeling is that Sony want to keep the Indie community happy and the Pro market. Keeping the RED at bay from all sides once thats achieved I think from what I have seen so far its goodbye to the EX range and the old Pro and consumer lines clearly drawn again. |
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I tend to think that because of the quick development of trends in the market, new technology needs to be introduced as soon as possible and improvements developed afterwards in order to create momentum as soon as possible. |
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Really good point. Now I can understand why that precedent had led you to believe that something like the EX3 would never happen even in light of the announcements at the time of the EX1's release. Fortunately the EX1 won't depreciate much over the next few months, in fact the demand may even increase now that everything about the EX3 has been revealed and those that have been fence-sitting on the EX1 will likely be content to buy it now.
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Congratulations!
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Thanks Mike. It was a little nerve-wracking making that decision given the rash of problems this camera seems to have. I'm hoping that Sony either has most of the bugs ironed out OR that they will start issuing firmware patches that WE can apply.
Wish me luck. I'm going to get it Saturday! |
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Did you get it from one of the sponsors on this website..B&H, Abel Cinetech..etc? |
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This thread is *completely* out of character for DV Info Net. And it's thoroughly baked -- so therefore closed. For those who want to vent: go start a blog! This site is an information exchange, not a soap box for personal ranting. And another thing... for those who like posting "Chris might ban me for saying this" may indeed find themselves actually banned, not for what they were going to say, but because I hate to disappoint when expectations are involved. Thanks all, |
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