If the video-look is a goal, then convert to interlaced SD not to progressive. That's much more effective concerning the video-look than ugly sharpening.

Ive read this thread form top to bottom and i'm still confused with Dominik's work flow.

So to get the best convert from HD to SD mpeg is to check the re-scaler to best and turn detail of on the EX camera.
Is this the work flow?

Yes, it is.

Okay, let me try to summerize this thread: (this is really a question for Dominik)

Do we go with Option #1 or #2?

OPTION #1 (scale to DV in FCP)
1) With no project open, go to Easy Setup and choose NTSC and DV
2) Create a new project
3) Import your XDCAM footage
4) Drop the footage into your timeline and edit as necessary
5) Choose NO when FCP asks whether to conform the sequence to your footage
6) Choose "Export to Compressor"
7) In Compressor assign the DV NTSC preset (or MPEG-2 for Standard Def DVD)
8) In the Frames>Rescaler tab, turn it on and choose Best
9) Submit and your done

OPTION #2 (don't scale in FCP)
1) With no project open, go to Easy Setup and choose HD and the appropriate XDCAM-EX preset
2) Create a new project
3) Import your XDCAM footage
4) Drop the footage into your timeline and edit as necessary
5) Choose "Export to Compressor"
6) In Compressor assign the DV NTSC preset (or MPEG-2 for Standard Def DVD)
7) In the Frames>Rescaler tab, turn it on and choose Best
8) Submit and your done

I've watched Dominik's video a number of times now and I can't tell exactly what he's doing, so I thought I'd clarify. (it doesn't help that it's all on German! hehehehe)

Hey Dominik, I would like to thank you for your advice on this thread.
You come over as a very straight talking guy but I like that.

Cheers
Steve

@Mitchell
option1->step8: Compressors rescaler-settings have no effect here, because all rescaling happens in FCP.

You forgot option3:
1. edit on a hd-timeline
2. drop that hd-timeline on a sd-timeline

I would go with option2 or option3, because I like to edit on a hd-timeline. Editing on a hd-timeline gives you that hd-"supersampling" which will increase the quality of some effects and (text-)graphics. Also you can export a hd-version of your edit at any time if you would like it (keyword: flexibility).
Option2 will give you slightly better quality when Compressors rescaling is set to best, but option3 will be significantly faster.
Which moments/seconds are unclear?

Dominik,
What are your thoughts on bit rate?
Avg
Max
Min
My work are 30mins features so fitting on to a DVD is easy.

NIck I can say from experience, don't go above 8000 or you will choke older DVD players and have to remake the DVD with a lower rate.

Average 6000
min 2000
max 8000.

If 8000 is the "choke-limit" and you have 30min to encode, then go with 8000 CBR. Because 30min with 8000 CBR fit on a DVD, you don't need to go lower in any part of your clip, so you don't need VBR.

Thanks,
I have always thought by using CBR will give better results than VBR if the material will fit onto a DVD.

I appreciate Mitchell's attempt to summarize (since I am lost again and have been waiting for just such a summary), but in option #1 if you drop the EX-1 footage into a DV SD timeline and choose NO when asked to conform the sequence to the footage won't you just be saddled with constant needs to render?

NO. You have to render then you output. You don't do any further editing once you have brought it onto the SD timeline. All editing is finished in HD beforehand.

Okay, I think I've got it:

OPTION #3 (import your finished HD sequence into an SD sequence)
1) With no project open, go to Easy Setup and choose HD and the appropriate XDCAM-EX preset
2) Create a new HD / XDCAM-EX project
3) Import your XDCAM-EX footage
4) Drop the footage into your HD timeline and edit as necessary
5) Create a new SD sequence (create a new sequence, go to Sequence Settings, and change the settings to and SD format. See note #1 below)
6) Final Cut will scale your HD sequence to fit letter-boxed in an SD frame. Optionally you could choose to increase the scale so that it fills the frame, but looses the L/R sides. This is called "center-cut".
7) Choose "Export to Compressor"
8) In Compressor assign the DV NTSC preset (or MPEG-2 for Standard Def DVD)
9) In the Frames>Rescaler tab, turn it on and choose Best
10) Submit and your done

NOTE #1: What are the recommended sequence settings for the SD sequence? Standard DV? DVCPRO50, DVCPRO100? Uncompressed? Can you even set a Sequence to Uncompressed HD? (I'm at home right now, so I don't have FCP in front of me.....I'm thinking of installing FCS2 on my laptop!)

NOTE #2: Dominik hasn't talked much about interlacing. For example, what if you shot in 1080 30P and want your end result to be 480 30i? Will the Compressor take care of this automatically?

As always....more questions. :)

I to have wondered what SD Seq settings I should be using.
This is what I would like to know:
Easy Setup?
Pal SD seq settings?
Quick Time video settings / compression setting?
Advanced Compressor Type?
Field Dominace if I have interlaced footage? ( Should I de-interlace in FCP)

I'm sure there is more

Hi there,

I have read this thread with great interest, although a lot of it is fairly intricate stuff!. As a new owner of an EX1 I find I am constantly learning about this camera and getting more confident.

The whole down converting issue seems to be a huge bugbear. I have tried a few ways and thus far the best results come from simply exporting to compressor straight from the HD timeline, with the best quality DVD 90 minute setting.

I haven't done an massive projects yet but have done stuff with motion graphics and text effects. I spose for you guys doing huge long projects that fill a DVD then rendering in the HD timeline is the prob?!?!

My main concerns with the end result have been aliasing and unnatural movement , kinda jerky on certain subjects.

I just wonder what each of our expectations are. Some people seem to be happy with results and others not so. Be great if we all had one clip and used our differing down conversion methods to see if we could compare our results and see what each others expectations are!

Interesting stuff!!

I'm at work today and I'm currently testing OPTION #3. It's processing now, but I have an appointment with a client in 20 minutes so I'm not sure if I'll have time to post results until I'm finished with them (2 hours?)

Original untouched file is here. Shot with EX1.
Right mouse click and "save target as"
http://www.steveshovlar.com/cinemacr...44_1441_01.mov

The finished file is here.
Right mouse click and "save target as"
http://www.steveshovlar.com/cinemacr...tEncoderMP.m2v

Can anyone improve on that finished file?[/QUOTE]

I can't get the second link with Steve's result, would love to have seen!

Hi Darren I have put it back online. Take a look. It was made with the Cinema Craft Encoder MP. a plugin for Compressor.
Right mouse click and "save target as"
http://www.steveshovlar.com/cinemacr...tEncoderMP.m2v

Hi Steve,

Looks cool, whats it like when burnt??

Try it yourself by bringing it into DVDSP and burning it to a cheap blank dvd. Looks fine here.

What benefit is there in making a reference Quick Time file rather that exporting the time line from FCP to Compressor.

Thanks

Faster (seconds)
Smaller files

Are there ANY advantages making a selfcontained QT (other than it is possible to send it to another computer)?

Faster (seconds)
Smaller files
You can still work with FCP if Compressor are encoding separate files. If you export from FCP using Compressor, FCP will be locked for you during the export.

Are there ANY advantages making a selfcontained QT (other than it is possible to send it to another computer)?

Okay, I'm back (sorry I got busy at work).

I did some more testing and I think I discovered a flaw in our "testing" methods. Perrone asked me to send him a HD file in PNG format and I did. He then compressed it to SD and it looked great. But today I looked at the PNG file I sent him. It's "looks" great as far as been very crisp, but the motion in the PNG file is unusable in my opinion. It's almost like it's running at 15 fps instead of 30 fps. So it's understandable that it came out so great when converting to SD. Maybe this is a Mac/PC thing...dunno.

With all my testing I have been using an XDCAM 1080 30P file as my starting point (as this is a XDCAM thread). I then followed the steps Dominik recommend (OPTION #3).

OPTION #3 (import your finished HD sequence into an SD sequence)
1) With no project open, go to Easy Setup and choose HD and the appropriate XDCAM-EX preset
2) Create a new HD / XDCAM-EX project
3) Import your XDCAM-EX footage
4) Drop the footage into your HD timeline and edit as necessary
5) Create a new SD sequence (I used DV for my sequence settings)
6) Final Cut will scale your HD sequence to fit letter-boxed in an SD frame. Optionally you could choose to increase the scale so that it fills the frame, but looses the L/R sides. This is called "center-cut".
NOTE: I did not render before Step 7
7) Choose "Export to Compressor"
8) In Compressor assign the DV NTSC preset (or MPEG-2 for Standard Def DVD)
9) In the Frames>Rescaler tab, turn it on and choose Best
10) Submit and your done

I performed this process 3 times, using 3 different settings in Compressor:

With Frames turned off: (16 mb file)
http://www.ssscc.org/ftp/hd-sd/DV-Seq-DV-NTSC.mov

With Frames turned on and set to Best: (16 mb file)
http://www.ssscc.org/ftp/hd-sd/DV-Se...Frame-Best.mov

With Frames turned on, set to Best and Interlace turned on, set to Best: (16 mb file)
http://www.ssscc.org/ftp/hd-sd/DV-Se...rlace-Best.mov

The original file I used is here: (20 mb file)
http://www.ssscc.org/ftp/hd-sd/Test-...-1080-30P).mov

If you look at the original XDCAM file, you'll notice that it dosn't look that great to begin with. I'm wondering if I should do the same test again, but this time starting with a ProRes 422 HQ file as my starting file?

Thoughts?

Steve,

I burnt it off and I have to say my version of your footage probably looks better.

Literally edit in your HD settings then export to compressor using 90 minute best quality. No need to drop into DV sequence, makes no odds.

I'll send you a disc if you like of the outed footage.

I have also found that analyzing the footage on a monitor is pointless. After all the reason we are all trying to get a good downconvert is for DVD's ....right?

I've done numerous tests and looked at stuff on the monitor, got excited because it looks sharper then burnt it and found its no better than the best method I have so far.

Maybe we all expect too much?

What are peoples main reservations about the results they are getting?? Mine mainly involves odd movement and aliasing. I can get stunning looking HD-SD downconversion on still shots. It's just when the camera pans or there is a moving subject that things are disappointing.

I agree Darren. I'll add that there's a huge difference watching a DVD on a setup box connected to a SD monitor (or HD if you're upscaling on the monitor) compared to even watching a DVD using Apple DVD Player. Good point!

My big issue right now is what you might call "aliasing". The edges of graphics don't look sharp anymore. But if I create the entire project in SD and make a DVD I can make it look great, so that tells me the problems not with SD quality versus HD quality.

I'm doing some more testing right now....

Thanks for the offer but no need to post me your results. i already know due to playing with it tonight.

Aliasing, as you and Mitchel have said, is the bugbear and the one to sort out. the way Final Cut Studio deals with the Ex1 footage is the problem and at the moment it seems difficult to get around.

Apple are probably more than aware there's a problem with the way the codec is being handled in downconversion and may be working on a solution as I type this. Or they may not!

Either way its good that there are some on here, with far superior technica nouse than i have, who might be able to crack the problem and give us all fantastic looking SD footage out of our EX1 and EX3's.

Okay, I feel stupid saying this.....I was wrong.

I've been trying and trying to get my example footage (bright red logo over video) to look good and have had no success. I had seen the original unconverted (never been HD) SD footage playing on our NTSC video monitor and it looked great, so I was convinced that the SD DV codec wasn't the problem. But just now, I opened that original file (from over a year ago) and watched it in Quicktime (something I'd never done before). It looks terrible!!

So the point is....(someone said this already just a couple of posts previous): Just because it doesn't look good in Quicktime, doesn't mean it won't look good on your monitor.

What doesn't add up though is

1) I understand that interlaced DV footage will look good on an NTSC monitor, but look terrible on a computer monitor. Whereas progressive footage will look a little bit strobed on an NTSC monitor, but look great on a computer monitor.

2) All the testing I have done with FCP and Compressor has been progressive. It should look fine on a computer monitor.

I think Dominik is right, bright red graphics just won't ever look good in DV due to it being a 4.1.1 color space.

I'm giving up and waiting until all my equipment arrives next week. Then I can use our new HD LCD monitor and AJA Io HD to do some more tests that I can view outside of Quicktime.

Thanks to Dominik and Perrone for providing such great advice on this thread.

I'm kind of lightly following all this waiting to it sort out before I do my own tests, but from the last posts could I assume that if graphics are the biggest problem, I should be OK shooting on my EX and handing downconverted original camera files to a client who might have asked for an SD DV camera in the first place?

Yes, I think so Leonard. The video behind my graphics always seemed to look pretty good, but then I never really looked at it that closely.

I have always found Bitvice much better than Compressor for DVDs. My current tests from HD to SD and then to mpeg2 - showed sharp text and nice sharp moving video from 1080p 30fps (down to 480i for DVD) from bitvice, where compressor on its best settings soften my text and added jaggies and soften my video to unacceptable levels. Plus Bitvice has great noise reduction that does not soften the image unlike most programs.

Good advice Greg. But BitVise is only a MPEG-2 encoder. It doesn't encode to any other formats. Looks to be a great product though, and they have a free demo you can download.

I'd say its more DVD Studio thats the problem. The burning is where we are getting aliasing and the dreaded jaggies!

Anyone had any luck with Encore?? I might give BitVise a go!

Mitchell,
If downconverting graphics is the big problem, why not cut in HD until you are ready to do your final graphics, then downcovert and finish in SD. Of course that's only relevent for something that doesn't need an HD version at all.

Our projects are so graphics intensive I might as well do the whole thing in SD.

I'm still not convinced there's a good solution. I've just put off testing until our equipment finally arrives....THIS WEEK!! (Tuesday to be exact)

It's going to be a VERY busy week though. Brand new camera, brand new 35mm adapter, old-dog cameraman who hasn't shot with an adapter before, first shoot on Friday afternoon. (cross your fingers)

I was disappointed with the final SD output from the EX3. Over Christmas I shot some family footage using both the Sony EX3 in 1440x1080, and with the Canon XH A1 using SD mode. When I put the two editied sequences onto a standard DVD the Sony footage stood head and shoulders above the Canon SD footage.

When I first started out as a stills photographer I was given the advice, buy a box of 10x8 B/W paper and use it all up in the darkroom, by sheet 45 you will know almost every thing about printing, by sheet 95 you will have perfected the technique. The same holds true for creating DVDs, buy a 100 stack of DVD + and burn short clips - 5 min max duration, and try every permutation. So far I have used up 55 discs and am finding subtle differences in the various settings. Keep notes of the settings being used. By disc 100 I hope the phone will be ringing from Steven Spielberg

Fingers definitely crossed for you Mitchell - you certainly are an optimist!

Good luck!

Hi greg, are you shooting in 60p, i have bitevice buy seem to find to no good, can youu let me know your bite vice settings,

rob.

Stop it Andy! You're not helping! :)