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-   -   need help: Ex and shooting PAL (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdcam-ex-pro-handhelds/236697-need-help-ex-shooting-pal.html)

William Griffin June 3rd, 2009 04:28 PM
need help: Ex and shooting PAL
 
I just had a call from a client in NYC and he is a producer for German TV (Pro Seiben)....and his questions to me was " can you shoot PAL on your Ex3"....and I told him "Ya-vol" yes....

But I want to shoot on the SDHC cards, so he can keep them and forward them on to Germany...so the question is:

Can the EX3 output PAL to the SDHC card? and can I play them back on my Sony Vaio laptop using clip browser 2.5, even if its a NTSC powered laptop?

Please help....

thanks.....

Tuy Le June 3rd, 2009 05:34 PM
I don't have EX3. But I just checked the manual - set the video format to PAL.
NTSC should be 60i, 30P, 24P 60P and PAL should be 50i, 25P, 50P.
However you will need to ask them what format do they want before you shoot.

William Griffin June 3rd, 2009 05:47 PM
the format is XDCAM PAL.....I want to know if the SDHC card will record that.

Craig Seeman June 3rd, 2009 05:55 PM
I think we have a few score PAL SDHC users.
The makers of MxR are in Australia after all (PAL country).

CPU shouldn't make a difference. Just make sure to setup your NLE for PAL.

Bob Grant June 3rd, 2009 06:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Griffin (Post 1153638)
the format is XDCAM PAL.....I want to know if the SDHC card will record that.
YES.

The data rate is the same for PAL or NTSC.

Tuy Le June 3rd, 2009 06:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Griffin (Post 1153638)
the format is XDCAM PAL.....I want to know if the SDHC card will record that.
Video Format: 1920x1080/50i or ??? XDCAM PAL is just a general term.
You should try your camera before go out for shooting :-)
As Bob posted, It will record on SDHC card - I was recording PAL on a previous NTSC recorded (and I can watch both on the viewfinder (on my EX1).

William Griffin June 3rd, 2009 07:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuy Le (Post 1153658)
Video Format: 1920x1080/50i or ??? XDCAM PAL is just a general term.
You should try your camera before go out for shooting :-)
As Bob posted, It will record on SDHC card - I was recording PAL on a previous NTSC recorded (and I can watch both on the viewfinder (on my EX1).
I know what PAL is and the settings...as I am a little lost on all of your post.

David Issko June 3rd, 2009 08:25 PM
Although you can set the camera's scanning rate to PAL or NTSC areas, the camera does not shoot in standard definition. You could, however, take a live uncompressed SDSDI feed from the camera to an SDSDI recorder such as Convergent Designs upcoming nanoflash. I'm not sure that SDSDI will be available in the initial deliveries though.

You DO NOT, I repeat, you do not want to take a composite or s-video output from the EX3 as the quality is RUBBISH! It is only good for very basic monitoring. I have tried using them.

The EX3 will record in HD only.

Hope this helps

William Griffin June 3rd, 2009 08:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Issko (Post 1153695)
Although you can set the camera's scanning rate to PAL or NTSC areas, the camera does not shoot in standard definition. You could, however, take a live uncompressed SDSDI feed from the camera to an SDSDI recorder such as Convergent Designs upcoming nanoflash. I'm not sure that SDSDI will be available in the initial deliveries though.

You DO NOT, I repeat, you do not want to take a composite or s-video output from the EX3 as the quality is RUBBISH! It is only good for very basic monitoring. I have tried using them.

The EX3 will record in HD only.

Hope this helps
I know it records in HD only...that is what the client wants....

William Griffin June 3rd, 2009 10:46 PM
Am I missing something here or is my question misleading...some of the post "are way off" and don't make sense ....please re -read my first post, please.

Bob Jackson June 3rd, 2009 11:09 PM
<Can the EX3 output PAL to the SDHC card? and can I play them back on my Sony Vaio laptop using clip browser 2.5, even if its a NTSC powered laptop?>
The card will be whatever format Pal or NTSC you use.
No such thing as an NTSC powered laptop.
pal or NTSC or secan refer to TV set standards only.

Gerry Curtis June 4th, 2009 01:01 AM
clarification
 
The EX-3 doesn't record PAL, it only records in HD, you should clarify what the prospective client format-wise. 25/50 frame per second HD frame rates isn't the same as PAL even though those terms are loosely interchanged.

Cheers,
Gerry

Paul Newman June 4th, 2009 01:39 AM
What an irritable selection of reply's:

Yes your EX3 will record to the SDHC card in any selectable camera format.

Set your camera to 1080 50i HQ mode and shoot.

Yes, the files will play on any Laptop, in any country, using Sony Clip Browser.

Send the SDHC cards to Germany, I'm sure they will be very happy.

Paul.

Bob Grant June 4th, 2009 02:24 AM
Some of the replies might be irritable but then again what is a "NTSC powered laptop"?

Regardless, there's an issue not covered in the original question.

Shooting any of the "PAL" frame rates in an NTSC country requires care to avoid flicker from lighting. I think the flicker reduction settings in the EXs get around this but it's much more of a concern than recording to SDHC cards.

Geert van Gemert June 4th, 2009 02:29 AM
I live in The Netherlands and I shoot for German TV-stations. 1080i HQ Pal ofcourse. I make copies and sent the SxS cards with the original footage to them and get them returned. Works great! No problems at all.
Succes William.

Tuy Le June 4th, 2009 02:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Griffin (Post 1153678)
I know what PAL is and the settings...as I am a little lost on all of your post.
Sorry Bill, I just offered more technical details and even tested it ...
and did not know you are professional cameraman.

William Griffin June 4th, 2009 08:26 AM
Thanks to all...as my questions have been answered................

David Issko June 4th, 2009 03:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Griffin (Post 1153697)
I know it records in HD only...that is what the client wants....
That is NOT what you first posted. You asked about PAL recordings. PAL (and NTSC) are standard def formats. There isn't and PAL & NTSC in HD. So when you posted asking about PAL recording, that means SD.

Anyway, I was only trying to help you and I found your reply to be very abrupt. As long as you have been informed and understand the diffeences now, that is all that matters.
Best wishes

William Griffin June 4th, 2009 05:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Issko (Post 1154114)
That is NOT what you first posted. You asked about PAL recordings. PAL (and NTSC) are standard def formats. There isn't and PAL & NTSC in HD. So when you posted asking about PAL recording, that means SD.

Anyway, I was only trying to help you and I found your reply to be very abrupt. As long as you have been informed and understand the diffeences now, that is all that matters.
Best wishes
YES it was....we all now live in a HD world.....everbody knows that the EX3 is a HD only camera....all the client wanted to know if it does "pal".....and on SDHC cards....if I wanted to get info on SD, I would have asked for it. and all that matters is some people on here gave me the right answers.

David Issko June 4th, 2009 10:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Griffin (Post 1154165)
YES it was....we all now live in a HD world.....everbody knows that the EX3 is a HD only camera....all the client wanted to know if it does "pal".....and on SDHC cards....if I wanted to get info on SD, I would have asked for it. and all that matters is some people on here gave me the right answers.
It does not record PAL on any card. It records different HD rates, but NOT PAL. I have an EX3 and have had one for many months now. Please advise me where I can record in PAL format video as mine does not record in PAL.

I can set it to record in PAL area or NTSC area but that is only related to the scanning rate, not the colour format.

So, I reiterate, the camera does NOT record in PAL nor does it record in NTSC as HD does not have PAL or NTSC in its technical makeup. The EX3 CANNOT output PAL to the SDHC card.

Besides, you DID ask for SD by asking if it records in PAL. Re-read your own post!

William Griffin June 4th, 2009 10:58 PM
No, your are wrong and so your telling me and the others on here that Sony Corp is lying to us all about what the camera can do....as when I spoke to Sony before I got the camera an asked them about PAL recording and they said "yes"....so take it up with them.

I asked the questions and they have been answered...the issue is CLOSED.

David Issko June 5th, 2009 03:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Griffin (Post 1154283)
No, your are wrong and so your telling me and the others on here that Sony Corp is lying to us all about what the camera can do....as when I spoke to Sony before I got the camera an asked them about PAL recording and they said "yes"....so take it up with them.

I asked the questions and they have been answered...the issue is CLOSED.
OK, enjoy recording in PAL on your unique EX3.

William Griffin June 5th, 2009 03:56 PM
I will as I spoke to Sony this morning, they have no idea what your talking about.

David Issko June 5th, 2009 04:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Griffin (Post 1154605)
I will as I spoke to Sony this morning, they have no idea what your talking about.
Well then, all of my projects, including TV are all wrong it seems. Oh well, to the back of the line for me. Enjoy your PAL recordings, while I and my clients enjoy 1080 recordings.

William Griffin June 5th, 2009 04:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Issko (Post 1154608)
Well then, all of my projects, including TV are all wrong it seems. Oh well, to the back of the line for me. Enjoy your PAL recordings, while I and my clients enjoy 1080 recordings.
If have a problem with this...call Sony Corp. in New Jersey 800-883-6817, push 2, then 5 then 2 again and talk to a broadcast service rep..... as he told me look at the manual of the camera, at pages 49-50....it tells it all. Sony only builds one camera type (EX3) at their plant in China, no matter if you live in New York City, or London or Paris.....where ever...you will get the same camera.

David Heath June 5th, 2009 04:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Griffin (Post 1154283)
.......when I spoke to Sony before I got the camera an asked them about PAL recording and they said "yes"....so take it up with them.
I can do little better than refer to wikipedia about this whole subject - PAL - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

PAL is an acronym for "Phase Alternating Line" and refers to how the colour information is encoded within an analogue colour television system. Practically, all the systems it's been associated with have been standard definition, including trials with the old UK 405 line! As wikipedia says:
Quote:
The term PAL is often used informally to refer to a 625-line/50 Hz (576i), television system, and to differentiate from a 525-line/60 Hz (480i) NTSC system. Accordingly, DVDs are labelled as either PAL or NTSC (referring informally to the line count and frame rate) even though technically the discs do not have either PAL or NTSC composite colour
In fact, even that is a clumsy approximation. In a very few countries (most especially Brazil), PAL colour coding is used with the 525-line/60 Hz line standard (as used with NTSC) to form the PAL-M standard.

Hence, even using "PAL" to mean "50Hz based standards" is incorrect (especially in Brazil!), and "PAL" DVDs could just as correctly be referred to as SECAM DVDs. The correct terminology there is really 576i/25 - it's only when the signal becomes analogue that it takes a "PAL" or "SECAM" form. But that's probably a losing battle.

Move to HD, and the terms PAL and NTSC have no relevance at all, as all analogue HD standards are component only, though they (wrongly) sometimes get used to imply 50Hz or 60Hz based standards.

Does it matter? I think the preceding comments probably prove it does, the use of misleading terminology causing confusion. The original question asked was "Can the EX3 output PAL to the SDHC card?" and I was not the only one to take that to mean "Can the EX3 output 576i/25 to the SDHC card?"

Phrased "Can the EX3 output 50Hz based standards to the SDHC card?" it would have been unambiguous.

David Heath June 5th, 2009 04:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Griffin (Post 1154618)
If have a problem with this...call Sony Corp. ........he told me look at the manual of the camera, ....it tells it all.
As a direct quote from the manual:
Quote:
The selectable formats depend on whether "Country" of the OTHERS menu is set to "NTSC area" or "PAL Area".
In other words they are distinguishing between PAL and NTSC areas of the world - it may have been better if they'd said "60Hz area" or "50Hz Area" - they are NOT saying that the camera will record "PAL".

The EX cameras will record 1080p/25, 1080i/25 and 720p/50 in "PAL areas" - they will not record 576i/25......... and that is what is generally referred to as "PAL".

William Griffin June 5th, 2009 05:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Heath (Post 1154622)
I can do little better than refer to wikipedia about this whole subject - PAL - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

PAL is an acronym for "Phase Alternating Line" and refers to how the colour information is encoded within an analogue colour television system. Practically, all the systems it's been associated with have been standard definition, including trials with the old UK 405 line! As wikipedia says:

In fact, even that is a clumsy approximation. In a very few countries (most especially Brazil), PAL colour coding is used with the 525-line/60 Hz line standard (as used with NTSC) to form the PAL-M standard.

Hence, even using "PAL" to mean "50Hz based standards" is incorrect (especially in Brazil!), and "PAL" DVDs could just as correctly be referred to as SECAM DVDs. The correct terminology there is really 576i/25 - it's only when the signal becomes analogue that it takes a "PAL" or "SECAM" form. But that's probably a losing battle.

Move to HD, and the terms PAL and NTSC have no relevance at all, as all analogue HD standards are component only, though they (wrongly) sometimes get used to imply 50Hz or 60Hz based standards.

Does it matter? I think the preceding comments probably prove it does, the use of misleading terminology causing confusion. The original question asked was "Can the EX3 output PAL to the SDHC card?" and I was not the only one to take that to mean "Can the EX3 output 576i/25 to the SDHC card?"

Phrased "Can the EX3 output 50Hz based standards to the SDHC card?" it would have been unambiguous.

I think you have something with your comments...

I have worked in the TV business for 25 years being employed at 4 TV stations and have worked for all the major US TV networks as a freelance cameraman.

And in my TV world here in Texas...NTSC means "US standard TV"....and PAL, means anything that is European 220v TV standard...its the way we use terms over here, as when ever a European client calls me (BBC,ProSeiben, Sat 1 Berlin and others)... they always ask me " can you shoot PAL".... and I always said if you bring a PAL camera with you or rent one out of New York at PAL EAST...as we have no PAL cameras in Texas.

So its just a hold over from the good old days of broadcast TV when we had to have 2 types of cameras.....and now HD will changed all of that, as HDTV is still new to a lot of us here in the US.

But come next week, June 12...its a new world , as we make the big switch to HD broadcast.

Denis OKeefe June 5th, 2009 05:24 PM
Jeez - lighten up a bit
 
you asked a question - well meaning and informed people answered it well, and quickly. We are all in flux, the only standard is that nothing is really standard. NTSC and PAL are not any flavor of HD and should both die off quickly (but they won't).
Electricity here is 60 hertz. We shoot 30 or 60. Electricity there is 50 hertz, they shoot 25 or 50. Effete folks shoot 24p because that's what film is (lousy TV but if they want to pay who am I to argue? - and please, apologies to all under or overcranking, I know you know what you are doing and it may look great).
Shoot 50 I or P (whatever they want) and it will work. Try 50 P or 50i in Texas and you will be unemployed.
How hard is this?
What folks are trying to warn you about is "crossing the beams" Don't use your HMI or shoot under fluorescents flickering in sync with our video but not their's. We share the same sun, that shouldn't cause trouble and tungsten doesn't flicker much. Set the camera to 50 something, if it looks okay you are fine, if it flickers something has to change and it can't be the format setting.

William Griffin June 5th, 2009 09:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denis OKeefe (Post 1154645)
you asked a question - well meaning and informed people answered it well, and quickly. We are all in flux, the only standard is that nothing is really standard. NTSC and PAL are not any flavor of HD and should both die off quickly (but they won't).
Electricity here is 60 hertz. We shoot 30 or 60. Electricity there is 50 hertz, they shoot 25 or 50. Effete folks shoot 24p because that's what film is (lousy TV but if they want to pay who am I to argue? - and please, apologies to all under or overcranking, I know you know what you are doing and it may look great).
Shoot 50 I or P (whatever they want) and it will work. Try 50 P or 50i in Texas and you will be unemployed.
How hard is this?
What folks are trying to warn you about is "crossing the beams" Don't use your HMI or shoot under fluorescents flickering in sync with our video but not their's. We share the same sun, that shouldn't cause trouble and tungsten doesn't flicker much. Set the camera to 50 something, if it looks okay you are fine, if it flickers something has to change and it can't be the format setting.
yes I know this...I have shot many times for the BBC out of New York... this whole post has me asking.... what the heck is going on out there.....

Bill Heslip June 5th, 2009 09:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Griffin (Post 1154638)
But come next week, June 12...its a new world , as we make the big switch to HD broadcast.
In most cases, the only switch being thrown will be the one that turns off the NTSC analog transmitter. Most local broadcast origination will still be SD. Digital does not mean HD, although it can be.


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