EX3 vs RED One at DVinfo.net

Amir Jaffar · July 18th, 2009, 02:28 AM

hi guys..
I've been seeing a lot of test footage of RED one and EX1/EX3 on the net. Is it only me or does anyone else too think that the EX3 footage is quite at par with that of Red One? Yes I know RED One will beat EX but what but what I really want to know is the price difference between the two justified as compared to their image quality? An expert opinion would be of great help. Thanks

Brian Drysdale · July 18th, 2009, 03:35 AM

I wouldn't judge any footage by what I see on the net. The material is so compressed that you can't tell anything, the only way you can really make a decision is by looking at the footage using the format, screen size and transmission chain that it's going to be distributed/broadcast on. What looks good on a computer screen may not look so good on a 40 ft cinema screen

The EX1 and EX3 do produce extremely good images for their price point and stood up well on the recent BSC test with high end cameras. That's not saying it they're as good as, but for the money they're impressive.

Amir Jaffar · July 18th, 2009, 08:54 AM

Hi Brian,
Yes absolutely, I do find your observation to be true that internet clips are not the ones to be judged. But wouldn't also it be ok to assume that such a comparison between various cameras is somewhat valid since ALL clips we are watching are compressed anyways?
I am more interested in knowing how well would high res EX3 footage converted to film and projected on 40ft screen hold up against say a 2K/4K footage off the Red One projected similarly. (I am aware that the 4k Red One footage gets down converted to 2k when creating digital intermediates) Is it possible that you are anyone else for that matter has done this comparison first hand?
Thanks for posting.

Joachim Hoge · July 18th, 2009, 09:17 AM

Well, the different sensor size plays a part in the images as well. Giving the Red a shallower depth of field and it's also often used with high end prime lenses that influences the image quite a bit.
The ex-3 holds up well though and I have never seen a side by side comparison

Boyd Ostroff · July 18th, 2009, 09:21 AM

Have you seen Adam Wilt's comparison here? ProVideo Coalition.com: Camera Log by Adam Wilt | Founder | Pro Cameras, HDV Camera, HD Camera, Sony, Panasonic, JVC, RED, Video Camera Reviews

Brian Barkley · July 18th, 2009, 09:40 AM

Lots of dramatic productions are shot on RED because it has the film look . . . I am considering producing a dramatic presentation, and will shoot with RED if I do.
(I own an EX-3)

Brian Drysdale · July 18th, 2009, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amir Jaffar

Hi Brian,
Yes absolutely, I do find your observation to be true that internet clips are not the ones to be judged. But wouldn't also it be ok to assume that such a comparison between various cameras is somewhat valid since ALL clips we are watching are compressed anyways?
I am more interested in knowing how well would high res EX3 footage converted to film and projected on 40ft screen hold up against say a 2K/4K footage off the Red One projected similarly. (I am aware that the 4k Red One footage gets down converted to 2k when creating digital intermediates) Is it possible that you are anyone else for that matter has done this comparison first hand?
Thanks for posting.

That would be OK if you're only going to be using the cameras for distribution as on line clips. You can have material which looks fine on the small screen, but when projected clean on the large screen is actually out of focus. I suspect quite a lot of subtle stuff is also being lost during the compression for the on line distribution. I recall compression being demonstrated, one set of footage looked very sharp, the other softer - it turned out the latter was the uncompressed, the compression process had removed the effect of the diffusion filter the cameraman had used.

You could check out Micheal Mann's latest epic, it has some EX1/3 shots in it

Brian Luce · July 18th, 2009, 09:27 PM

It's hard to compare these cameras, they're different in almost every way. Red doesn't even shoot video. They both offer a lot of bang for the buck at vastly different price points, that's for sure.

Amir Jaffar · July 19th, 2009, 12:17 PM

Hey Boyd,
thanks for the link. Pretty useful I must say. Though my confusion remains.. The tests seemed more between REDOne and F23, and EX1 was just hanging in there. haha.

My dilemma is between hiring a Red ONe for my feature film or buying two EX3s (for much less) doing a two camera shoot thus saving more time and money... I am only intrigued by the quality of converted to film EX3 Vs. RED one footage for the big screen. A test shoot would solve that mystery and if the difference isn't much vis a vis the costs then I'm going in with the EX3s. Will keep you guys posted as to how I fare on my tests. Any pointers that I need to watch out for would be much appreiciated..
Thanks..

Max Allen · July 19th, 2009, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amir Jaffar

Hey Boyd,
thanks for the link. Pretty useful I must say. Though my confusion remains.. The tests seemed more between REDOne and F23, and EX1 was just hanging in there. haha.

My dilemma is between hiring a Red ONe for my feature film or buying two EX3s (for much less) doing a two camera shoot thus saving more time and money... I am only intrigued by the quality of converted to film EX3 Vs. RED one footage for the big screen. A test shoot would solve that mystery and if the difference isn't much vis a vis the costs then I'm going in with the EX3s. Will keep you guys posted as to how I fare on my tests. Any pointers that I need to watch out for would be much appreiciated..
Thanks..

My 2c is if you can shoot 4k the choice is no doubt the RED. If you can only do 2k for whatever reason then I think EX has a good chance.

Tim Polster · July 19th, 2009, 02:48 PM

I don't know much about going to a printed film master, but it seems like an involved and expensive process.

Trying to make a prosumer video camera fit the bill seems a bit of a stretch imho.

If you have the project that is important enough to go to film, then the project should warrant the of use more expensive cameras more suited to the task. Or be happy with whatever quality level you get from the EX-3 as it was not made for a filmout, it is an $8,000 video camera.

I am sure it will look fine, but the real question is are you o.k. with "fine"?

Brian Drysdale · July 19th, 2009, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amir Jaffar

Hey Boyd,
My dilemma is between hiring a Red ONe for my feature film or buying two EX3s (for much less) doing a two camera shoot thus saving more time and money... I am only intrigued by the quality of converted to film EX3 Vs. RED one footage for the big screen. A test shoot would solve that mystery and if the difference isn't much vis a vis the costs then I'm going in with the EX3s. Will keep you guys posted as to how I fare on my tests. Any pointers that I need to watch out for would be much appreiciated..
Thanks..

That's a very different style of shooting a film. The RED is closer to a 35mm film camera in many ways and there are other factors involved such as the lighting etc, which are key to how a film looks.

Highlight handling and how much colour space you have available for colour correction are factors to be considered. The look from a 35mm sized sensor is very different to that from a 1/2" camera. Pick the camera that's best suited to telling your story, plus if you don't have the budget to shoot with a RED why consider using it? The post work flow for a RED is very different to that of an EX3, and that's another factor to be considered.

Amir Jaffar · July 20th, 2009, 01:43 AM

Hey Brian/Tim/Max..
thanks for your posts guys..
Now let me tell you who the culprits are which are making me think EX3 can cut for me close to what RED ONe can..

pl go through these links.. can you really blame me for my way of thinking ???

EX1 and Red One on Vimeo
Virgin Mobile on Vimeo
CLICHE / sony EX1 on Vimeo
Storyteller's Night (Trailer 2) on Vimeo

I am so floored by the look of the virgin commercial in the second link, and the EX3/RED comparison in the first - unless these guys are not telling us something we should know (which I doubt very very much)

I am planning to NOT compromise on my lighting since I am taking on the services of a professional skilled cinematographer with complete lighting rigs and good art direction.
and about 4k, well the post production happens in 2k anyways.

In the end, I know I'll most likely end up shooting on REDone to be safe, but I don't want to go down without putting up a decent fight for the EX3. So please maul me towards that direction with your comments ;-)
regards..

Brian Luce · July 20th, 2009, 02:34 AM

For a first feature, there's something to be said about the luxury of two cameras. It'

Brian Drysdale · July 20th, 2009, 02:59 AM

The decision should be based on your story and how you wish to tell it. As Brian pointed out the RED is a bigger beast, so that could be a factor and having 35mm experience in the crew really helps because the associated kit is usually the same. It's also power hungry, so you need a steady supply of charged batteries.

The EX1/3 series do make impressive pictures, although there seems to a be a underlying "video" feel to the Virgin spot. Everything is under control lighting wise, so you can't really tell much about the camera's highlight handling.

In any tests you should really push the cameras until the images fall apart, then you can decide which is suitable for your film. You should also try and make the recording codec fall apart and see if that could create any issues for you.

There are a number of factors involved in deciding which camera to go for on any production.

July 18th, 2009, 02:28 AM	#1
Amir Jaffar Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Mumbai, India. Posts: 26	EX3 vs RED One hi guys.. I've been seeing a lot of test footage of RED one and EX1/EX3 on the net. Is it only me or does anyone else too think that the EX3 footage is quite at par with that of Red One? Yes I know RED One will beat EX but what but what I really want to know is the price difference between the two justified as compared to their image quality? An expert opinion would be of great help. Thanks

July 20th, 2009, 02:34 AM	#14
Brian Luce Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,290	For a first feature, there's something to be said about the luxury of two cameras. It' Last edited by Brian Luce; July 20th, 2009 at 08:51 AM.

July 18th, 2009, 03:35 AM	#2
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	I wouldn't judge any footage by what I see on the net. The material is so compressed that you can't tell anything, the only way you can really make a decision is by looking at the footage using the format, screen size and transmission chain that it's going to be distributed/broadcast on. What looks good on a computer screen may not look so good on a 40 ft cinema screen The EX1 and EX3 do produce extremely good images for their price point and stood up well on the recent BSC test with high end cameras. That's not saying it they're as good as, but for the money they're impressive.

July 18th, 2009, 08:54 AM	#3
Amir Jaffar Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Mumbai, India. Posts: 26	Hi Brian, Yes absolutely, I do find your observation to be true that internet clips are not the ones to be judged. But wouldn't also it be ok to assume that such a comparison between various cameras is somewhat valid since ALL clips we are watching are compressed anyways? I am more interested in knowing how well would high res EX3 footage converted to film and projected on 40ft screen hold up against say a 2K/4K footage off the Red One projected similarly. (I am aware that the 4k Red One footage gets down converted to 2k when creating digital intermediates) Is it possible that you are anyone else for that matter has done this comparison first hand? Thanks for posting.

July 18th, 2009, 09:17 AM	#4
Joachim Hoge Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 402	Well, the different sensor size plays a part in the images as well. Giving the Red a shallower depth of field and it's also often used with high end prime lenses that influences the image quite a bit. The ex-3 holds up well though and I have never seen a side by side comparison

July 18th, 2009, 09:21 AM	#5
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,787	Have you seen Adam Wilt's comparison here? ProVideo Coalition.com: Camera Log by Adam Wilt \| Founder \| Pro Cameras, HDV Camera, HD Camera, Sony, Panasonic, JVC, RED, Video Camera Reviews

July 18th, 2009, 09:40 AM	#6
Brian Barkley Major Player Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Overland Park, KS Posts: 233	Lots of dramatic productions are shot on RED because it has the film look . . . I am considering producing a dramatic presentation, and will shoot with RED if I do. (I own an EX-3)

July 18th, 2009, 09:27 PM	#8
Brian Luce Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,290	It's hard to compare these cameras, they're different in almost every way. Red doesn't even shoot video. They both offer a lot of bang for the buck at vastly different price points, that's for sure.

July 19th, 2009, 12:17 PM	#9
Amir Jaffar Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Mumbai, India. Posts: 26	Hey Boyd, thanks for the link. Pretty useful I must say. Though my confusion remains.. The tests seemed more between REDOne and F23, and EX1 was just hanging in there. haha. My dilemma is between hiring a Red ONe for my feature film or buying two EX3s (for much less) doing a two camera shoot thus saving more time and money... I am only intrigued by the quality of converted to film EX3 Vs. RED one footage for the big screen. A test shoot would solve that mystery and if the difference isn't much vis a vis the costs then I'm going in with the EX3s. Will keep you guys posted as to how I fare on my tests. Any pointers that I need to watch out for would be much appreiciated.. Thanks..

July 19th, 2009, 02:48 PM	#11
Tim Polster Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 2,231	I don't know much about going to a printed film master, but it seems like an involved and expensive process. Trying to make a prosumer video camera fit the bill seems a bit of a stretch imho. If you have the project that is important enough to go to film, then the project should warrant the of use more expensive cameras more suited to the task. Or be happy with whatever quality level you get from the EX-3 as it was not made for a filmout, it is an $8,000 video camera. I am sure it will look fine, but the real question is are you o.k. with "fine"?

July 20th, 2009, 01:43 AM	#13
Amir Jaffar Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Mumbai, India. Posts: 26	Hey Brian/Tim/Max.. thanks for your posts guys.. Now let me tell you who the culprits are which are making me think EX3 can cut for me close to what RED ONe can.. pl go through these links.. can you really blame me for my way of thinking ??? EX1 and Red One on Vimeo Virgin Mobile on Vimeo CLICHE / sony EX1 on Vimeo Storyteller's Night (Trailer 2) on Vimeo I am so floored by the look of the virgin commercial in the second link, and the EX3/RED comparison in the first - unless these guys are not telling us something we should know (which I doubt very very much) I am planning to NOT compromise on my lighting since I am taking on the services of a professional skilled cinematographer with complete lighting rigs and good art direction. and about 4k, well the post production happens in 2k anyways. In the end, I know I'll most likely end up shooting on REDone to be safe, but I don't want to go down without putting up a decent fight for the EX3. So please maul me towards that direction with your comments ;-) regards..

July 20th, 2009, 02:59 AM	#15
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	The decision should be based on your story and how you wish to tell it. As Brian pointed out the RED is a bigger beast, so that could be a factor and having 35mm experience in the crew really helps because the associated kit is usually the same. It's also power hungry, so you need a steady supply of charged batteries. The EX1/3 series do make impressive pictures, although there seems to a be a underlying "video" feel to the Virgin spot. Everything is under control lighting wise, so you can't really tell much about the camera's highlight handling. In any tests you should really push the cameras until the images fall apart, then you can decide which is suitable for your film. You should also try and make the recording codec fall apart and see if that could create any issues for you. There are a number of factors involved in deciding which camera to go for on any production.