XDCAM EX1 Live SDI Out at DVinfo.net

Julio Veas P. · August 6th, 2009, 01:37 AM

Has anybody been capturing live from the ex1/3 through SDI and compressing into an I-frame codec or better yet uncompressed. I am doing a Documental in the Chilean Highlands with some heavy color correction and the image doesn´t hold up to this limits, if I capture to a higher data rate I-Frame codec, from live SDI to a Matrox MXO or XDR Flash recorder is it worth the extra investment from a picture quality point of view.

Any Experiences??

Olof Ekbergh · August 6th, 2009, 07:17 AM

The only time I use SDI out direct is in a studio doing chroma key. Then I use ProresHQ.

I am going to try the new Prores4444 for that soon.

AJA makes a portable Prores from SDI recorder: KI PRO - AJA Video - Serial Digital Video Interface and Conversion

I bet it works very well.

I have never had a problem CC'ing the EX codec for on location work, try messing about with the pic profiles, you can store several and save them to the SxS cards even.

Having a good field HD monitor may be cheaper and lighter, and help even more than the KI.

Noah Kadner · August 6th, 2009, 09:17 AM

You bet- going HD-SDI from the EX1 into Ki Pro yields a noticeably better image. Not to say that XDCAM EX 35 isn't an amazing codec but it's not the same level as ProRes HQ. And it's not ready to drag and drop edit in FCP the way ProRes is. If you want to go down this route, especially on a location shoot, you definitely want a Ki Pro. BTW- my wife's company deals Ki Pro out of Mexico so if you'd like to get one shipped out to you in Chile, drop me a private message. :)

Noah

Keith Rollinson · August 6th, 2009, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noah Kadner

You bet- going HD-SDI from the EX1 into Ki Pro yields a noticeably better image. Not to say that XDCAM EX 35 isn't an amazing codec but it's not the same level as ProRes HQ.

Noah

Would you mind giving detail as to your claim of "noticeably better image"? It's easy to understand the difference in data rates, but in a test I took part in, there was absolutely no visible difference on the HD control monitor or scopes - not just to me, but the others who took part as well. Of course, once manipulation of the image occurs in FCP, etc., things could change, but straight rushes appeared indentical between cards and Ki Pro. Thanks.

Noah Kadner · August 6th, 2009, 12:03 PM

Keith-

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that capturing HD-SDI pre-compression to ProRes HQ at 4:2:2/10-bit/220Megabits is going to look better than XDCAM EX at 4:2:0/8-bit/35 megabits. Something's going to give. Especially with the EX1/EX3, which are both 4:2:2 internally and that goes out to HD-SDI but gets crunched down to 4:2:0 in XDCAM EX.

Is the average person going to notice on an average HD monitor- probably not. Is it going to be night and day- first generation out of the camera on the scopes, probably not. But we're talking about the suitability of a codec for multiple generations of post work as well as a simplified workflow and squeezing every last drop out of a camera's potential. In the case of the EX1/EX3, the codec is pretty good already so the difference is not as readily apparent to something like Pro Res or even uncompressed. But once you start going down the list to other cameras with high quality inputs but more intensive codecs, the differences become even clearer.

And this isn't really about 'my claim' like I'm trying to sell you a Ki Pro or any other BMD or AJA box or whatever. I just personally happen to think this is an excellent solution to a problem that's been around for a while: high quality cameras with codecs that are not delivering everything a camera is capable of producing quality wise. As well as different codecs and frame rates in multiple camera shoots that are not cross-compatible. This is a solution to all that babel that makes sense to me personally. If you aren't convinced and you're happy with what you get out of your EX1/EX3 and the workflow and quality in post- good for you. You're certainly not alone... :)

Noah

Keith Rollinson · August 6th, 2009, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noah Kadner

Keith-

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that capturing HD-SDI pre-compression to ProRes HQ at 4:2:2/10-bit/220Megabits is going to look better than XDCAM EX at 4:2:0/8-bit/35 megabits.
Noah

Hi Noah,

How did you know my client ftp site is rocketscientism.com?!? Perhaps you're psychic ;>)
In any event, when you write "noticeably better image", I - not an "average" person by any means - disagree (no worries, no offense taken). It was a cluster of three post professionals who came to the same conclusion when comparing the XDCAM EX 35Mb footage via SxS v. the KiPro, on a $25K+ Sony HD control monitor, HD waveform, etc. In 1st gen recording to either XDCAM EX 35Mb or Ki Pro ProRes, the differences are indistinguishable (well, at least to the x3 pros mentioned above), even w/ footage containing motion and HF detail. Have you had a look yourself at the camera originals to compare?

The difference in bitrates does not really tell the story, as many will agree that the XDCAM EX 35Mb codec is the equal of/better than certain higher bitrate codecs.More than understand the benefits of 4:2:2 v. 4:2:0, particualrly for CC and compositing. The KiPro-captured manipulated image should, and in reality does have an edge, however slight, over XDCAM ED 35Mb orig. footage, though difficult to spot on control and/or tech monitors.

Chad Johnson · August 6th, 2009, 05:20 PM

Out of curiosity, what kinds of portable SDI solutions are there for the EX1?

How about just recorders for the 35mbps stream?

Is there anything under 3 grand to record long times onto?

Chadfish

Bruce Rawlings · August 7th, 2009, 01:36 AM

Convergent DEsign Nanoflash will be out very soon and looks as if it will be ideal for high quality pictures out of EX1/3. It will record MXF or .Mov.

Brian Luce · August 7th, 2009, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith Rollinson

Hi Noah,

How did you know my client ftp site is rocketscientism.com?!? Perhaps you're psychic ;>)
In any event, when you write "noticeably better image", I - not an "average" person by any means - disagree (no worries, no offense taken). It was a cluster of three post professionals who came to the same conclusion when comparing the XDCAM EX 35Mb footage via SxS v. the KiPro, on a $25K+ Sony HD control monitor, HD waveform, etc. In 1st gen recording to either XDCAM EX 35Mb or Ki Pro ProRes, the differences are indistinguishable (well, at least to the x3 pros mentioned above), even w/ footage containing motion and HF detail. Have you had a look yourself at the camera originals to compare?

The difference in bitrates does not really tell the story, as many will agree that the XDCAM EX 35Mb codec is the equal of/better than certain higher bitrate codecs.More than understand the benefits of 4:2:2 v. 4:2:0, particualrly for CC and compositing. The KiPro-captured manipulated image should, and in reality does have an edge, however slight, over XDCAM ED 35Mb orig. footage, though difficult to spot on control and/or tech monitors.

Okay so how about the 35mb codec transcoded to prores compared to the Ki prores loaded directly from sdi? Then would there be a noticeable change in image quality?

Ofer Levy · August 7th, 2009, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Rawlings

Convergent DEsign Nanoflash will be out very soon and looks as if it will be ideal for high quality pictures out of EX1/3. It will record MXF or .Mov.

It's already selling. I have been using the Flash XDR for quite a few months and the image quality is simply mind blowing - way superiour to what the EX3 delivers without it.
I shoot Long GOP at 100Mb/s most of the time but recently started using I-Frame only at 160Mb/s for slow motion - looks awesome.
Cheers,
Ofer Levy Photography

Chad Johnson · August 7th, 2009, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ofer Levy

It's already selling. I have been using the Flash XDR for quite a few months and the image quality is simply mind blowing - way superiour to what the EX3 delivers without it.
I shoot Long GOP at 100Mb/s most of the time but recently started using I-Frame only at 160Mb/s for slow motion - looks awesome.
Cheers,
Ofer Levy Photography

I just checked that out. It looks like a wonderful little recorder! The price is reasonable too. It's good to know something like this is finally out there.

Jacques Mersereau · August 8th, 2009, 03:17 PM

Just yesterday we were finally able to get a hold of a 8 core mac loaded with five internal drives (4) striped with a RAID controller coupled with AJA VIDEO KONA 3 card.
We were shooting a single dancer on a 32'w x 20'd x 18'h stage.

We have shot lots of green and blue screen shoots with DV, HDV and EXCAM 35mbps.
This always results in pretty bad keys/product imho. Part of this is our screens are still made of photographic paper. REAL greenscreen cloth made for chroma key work is MUCH better.

So, yesterday we first tried ProRes422 HQ with this new capture system. Again, there were a lot of issues as the rim of the moving subject is the place where a lot of the compression takes place and results in problems.

We went to UNCOMPRESSED and the results were AMAZING. This is really where you need to be if you have hopes of turning out professional results.

The KI is super cool, but mostly for its portability and direct recording to ProRes.
I am not putting it down at all, BUT if you are planning on doing a lot of G.S., I would say put the money into a system that can record uncompressed. You won't be sorry.

Olof Ekbergh · August 8th, 2009, 03:58 PM

I have done a lot of chroma key work. And I find the best BG is painted wall with lots of room between subject and wall 20' minimum, you need black side walls or panels and ceiling unless it is a tall ceiling, in order to prevent spill. Spill is what kills a 4:1:1 or 4:2:0 key. 4:2:2 is much better at eliminating spill artifacts.

If you dont have that much room then sidelight with minus green (magenta) or minus blue (orange) gels.

With proper lighting I used to pull perfect keys with a DSR500, in rented studios with very limited lighting, I bring my own fabric. And the EX3 native codec is very capable of a perfect HD key. It really is all in the lighting.

Jacques Mersereau · August 8th, 2009, 04:35 PM

It all depends on what it is you are shooting.
I am not talking about a 'talking head', I am talking about DANCER, shot FULL BODY, wearing a WHITE transparent costume, running around a large stage, jumping into air, falling down on the stage - writhing, etc. I can absolutely guarantee that you cannot pull a perfect key using DV. 'Off color' side lights put 'off color light' onto the floor as well as the subject if you try to cover a big stage. It doesn't work - in fact, it is a nightmare.

Yes, lighting is very important, that is a given.
Have you ever noticed JAGGIES with DV or even ProRes422 HQ
being shot in 1080P@24FPS?
They are THERE. Your key will have jaggies if you shoot compressed. That is not my opinion, that is a fact.

Brian Luce · August 8th, 2009, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacques Mersereau

I can absolutely guarantee that you cannot pull a perfect key using DV. .

What software are you using Jacques?

And who here is talking about keying in DV? Good luck to anyone trying to key with it.

August 6th, 2009, 01:37 AM	#1
Julio Veas P. Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Arica-Chile Posts: 41	XDCAM EX1 Live SDI Out Has anybody been capturing live from the ex1/3 through SDI and compressing into an I-frame codec or better yet uncompressed. I am doing a Documental in the Chilean Highlands with some heavy color correction and the image doesn´t hold up to this limits, if I capture to a higher data rate I-Frame codec, from live SDI to a Matrox MXO or XDR Flash recorder is it worth the extra investment from a picture quality point of view. Any Experiences??

August 8th, 2009, 03:17 PM	#12
Jacques Mersereau Trustee Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 1,334	Just yesterday we were finally able to get a hold of a 8 core mac loaded with five internal drives (4) striped with a RAID controller coupled with AJA VIDEO KONA 3 card. We were shooting a single dancer on a 32'w x 20'd x 18'h stage. We have shot lots of green and blue screen shoots with DV, HDV and EXCAM 35mbps. This always results in pretty bad keys/product imho. Part of this is our screens are still made of photographic paper. REAL greenscreen cloth made for chroma key work is MUCH better. So, yesterday we first tried ProRes422 HQ with this new capture system. Again, there were a lot of issues as the rim of the moving subject is the place where a lot of the compression takes place and results in problems. We went to UNCOMPRESSED and the results were AMAZING. This is really where you need to be if you have hopes of turning out professional results. The KI is super cool, but mostly for its portability and direct recording to ProRes. I am not putting it down at all, BUT if you are planning on doing a lot of G.S., I would say put the money into a system that can record uncompressed. You won't be sorry. __________________ Jacques Mersereau University of Michigan-Video Studio Manager

August 8th, 2009, 04:35 PM	#14
Jacques Mersereau Trustee Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 1,334	It all depends on what it is you are shooting. I am not talking about a 'talking head', I am talking about DANCER, shot FULL BODY, wearing a WHITE transparent costume, running around a large stage, jumping into air, falling down on the stage - writhing, etc. I can absolutely guarantee that you cannot pull a perfect key using DV. 'Off color' side lights put 'off color light' onto the floor as well as the subject if you try to cover a big stage. It doesn't work - in fact, it is a nightmare. Yes, lighting is very important, that is a given. Have you ever noticed JAGGIES with DV or even ProRes422 HQ being shot in 1080P@24FPS? They are THERE. Your key will have jaggies if you shoot compressed. That is not my opinion, that is a fact. __________________ Jacques Mersereau University of Michigan-Video Studio Manager

August 6th, 2009, 07:17 AM	#2
Olof Ekbergh Sponsor: Westside AV Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Mount Washington Valley, NH, USA Posts: 1,365	The only time I use SDI out direct is in a studio doing chroma key. Then I use ProresHQ. I am going to try the new Prores4444 for that soon. AJA makes a portable Prores from SDI recorder: KI PRO - AJA Video - Serial Digital Video Interface and Conversion I bet it works very well. I have never had a problem CC'ing the EX codec for on location work, try messing about with the pic profiles, you can store several and save them to the SxS cards even. Having a good field HD monitor may be cheaper and lighter, and help even more than the KI.

August 6th, 2009, 09:17 AM	#3
Noah Kadner Better than Halle Berry Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 435	You bet- going HD-SDI from the EX1 into Ki Pro yields a noticeably better image. Not to say that XDCAM EX 35 isn't an amazing codec but it's not the same level as ProRes HQ. And it's not ready to drag and drop edit in FCP the way ProRes is. If you want to go down this route, especially on a location shoot, you definitely want a Ki Pro. BTW- my wife's company deals Ki Pro out of Mexico so if you'd like to get one shipped out to you in Chile, drop me a private message. :) Noah

August 6th, 2009, 12:03 PM	#5
Noah Kadner Better than Halle Berry Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 435	Keith- It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that capturing HD-SDI pre-compression to ProRes HQ at 4:2:2/10-bit/220Megabits is going to look better than XDCAM EX at 4:2:0/8-bit/35 megabits. Something's going to give. Especially with the EX1/EX3, which are both 4:2:2 internally and that goes out to HD-SDI but gets crunched down to 4:2:0 in XDCAM EX. Is the average person going to notice on an average HD monitor- probably not. Is it going to be night and day- first generation out of the camera on the scopes, probably not. But we're talking about the suitability of a codec for multiple generations of post work as well as a simplified workflow and squeezing every last drop out of a camera's potential. In the case of the EX1/EX3, the codec is pretty good already so the difference is not as readily apparent to something like Pro Res or even uncompressed. But once you start going down the list to other cameras with high quality inputs but more intensive codecs, the differences become even clearer. And this isn't really about 'my claim' like I'm trying to sell you a Ki Pro or any other BMD or AJA box or whatever. I just personally happen to think this is an excellent solution to a problem that's been around for a while: high quality cameras with codecs that are not delivering everything a camera is capable of producing quality wise. As well as different codecs and frame rates in multiple camera shoots that are not cross-compatible. This is a solution to all that babel that makes sense to me personally. If you aren't convinced and you're happy with what you get out of your EX1/EX3 and the workflow and quality in post- good for you. You're certainly not alone... :) Noah

August 6th, 2009, 05:20 PM	#7
Chad Johnson Major Player Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Arcata, Ca Posts: 750	Out of curiosity, what kinds of portable SDI solutions are there for the EX1? How about just recorders for the 35mbps stream? Is there anything under 3 grand to record long times onto? Chadfish

August 7th, 2009, 01:36 AM	#8
Bruce Rawlings Major Player Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Cardiff, Wales, UK Posts: 410	Convergent DEsign Nanoflash will be out very soon and looks as if it will be ideal for high quality pictures out of EX1/3. It will record MXF or .Mov.

August 8th, 2009, 03:58 PM	#13
Olof Ekbergh Sponsor: Westside AV Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Mount Washington Valley, NH, USA Posts: 1,365	I have done a lot of chroma key work. And I find the best BG is painted wall with lots of room between subject and wall 20' minimum, you need black side walls or panels and ceiling unless it is a tall ceiling, in order to prevent spill. Spill is what kills a 4:1:1 or 4:2:0 key. 4:2:2 is much better at eliminating spill artifacts. If you dont have that much room then sidelight with minus green (magenta) or minus blue (orange) gels. With proper lighting I used to pull perfect keys with a DSR500, in rented studios with very limited lighting, I bring my own fabric. And the EX3 native codec is very capable of a perfect HD key. It really is all in the lighting.